Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Moderator: admin

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby alithered » 13 Nov 2010, 19:01

why not , you did answered but there is one problem your MIGHT BE theroy cannot be used for second caliph at all. because it is highly unlikely that at that time General zia ul haq was even in the army .


but it can be used for the fourth who called it 5 days before... as per the jamaat that is...

you are not getting my point, i am not making an accusation, it is not a statement, i said, am just speculating, raising an eyebrow, suspecting.....


i also showed that such speculation are always propagated , what could be a good example other then from quran .
just go over the incident of the hazrat Mosa (as) , which i showed you that hwo one miracle caused a handful of Magician accepting him as the prophet of the GOD , while the Pheroo presented the MIGHT BE theory.



with regard to the miracle of Moses P.B.U.H, please read the short commentary by K4 available on http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?p ... &region=EN .. its quite baffling, and paradoxical... one of the things that basically disgusted me... anyways, it is mentioned that there was no miracle, and instead of turning the rod into a real serpent, God decided to create a vision in which the rod turned into a serpent...

please do tell me the difference between prophecies of true and false prophets... with regard to wikipedia, i dont see any criticisms of bahai miracles, which were pretty interesting, as against those of MGAQ's which motly revolved around the deaths of his opponents, and ofcourse the failed marriage proposal..

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's critics claim that his repeated assertions that his marriage to Mohammadi Begum was ordained by God were never fulfilled. He said:
“ The Almighty God has told me that I should send a marriage proposal to the elder daughter of a Ahmad Baig; he has also ordered you to accept me as your first son in law and derive light from my knowledge and wisdom. Furthermore, I am to inform you that I have been granted the permission to execute the deed of the land you are interested in and bestow upon you additional land and other favors, provided you wed your daughter to me. This is the only treaty between you and I. So, if you accept, I will accept this too. If you do not accept, then God has ordered me to warn you that — in case the girl is married to someone else — it will not be auspicious for you or her.[27][28][29] ”
and,
“ As a token of the Almighty's favor to this humble person, Allah has ordained that, should Mirza Ahmad Baig refuse to wed his elder daughter to me, he will be considered Allah's enemy and a disbeliever (Kafir). Additionally, as a punishment for his disbelief, Mirza Baig will die within three years of this refusal and any other man who marries Muhammadi Begum will die within two and half years of the date of his wedding. Muhammadi Begum is destined -- by the almighty Allah -- to ultimately become my wife.[27][28][29] ”
he also said:
“ I am making not one, but six predictions: (1) I will be alive at the time of the wedding of Muhammadi Begum (2) Mirza Baig will also be alive at the time of the wedding of his daughter (3) Mirza Baig will die within three years of the date of the wedding (4) The Groom will also die within two and half years of the date of the wedding (5) Muhammadi Begum will remain alive until she becomes my wife (6) Despite disagreement of all her relatives, she will finally marry me. ”
However, Muhammadi Begum married an orthodox Muslim, Mirza Sultan Ahmad. They lived together for forty years after Ghulam Ahmad's death in 1908. Mirza Sultan Ahmad finally died in 1948 and Muhammadi Begum died in 1966, decades after Ghulam Ahmad's prophecies.


Ahmadi' are the only ones who have the concept of conditional prophecies..that after the prophecy, xyz repented, and so the prophecy was not fulfilled... i see them as cunningly phrased threats.. rather than prophecies... what? did God not know that Muhammadi Begum family would repent before he revealed this prophecy to MGAQ?... Prophecies are not conditional and not in parts, and if in parts, even if one is not fulfilled, than the entire prophecy is to be considered false.. LOGIC 101


then comes the point of God revelaing things to your Khalifa, maybe yu should read your own post again... you have used the words Either and Or..


It was being predicted that in the next 45 years a sign for the truthfulness of the jamate ahmadiyyat is going to come .
That sign will either come
1) In eight years
2) 34 year
3) 37 years
4) 46 years




********************************************************************************
*********************** Greatest Prophecy of the time ********************
********************************************************************************
1) A time is about to to come in the future when a pheroo ( a man with the power ) will commit atrocities on the promised messiah jamat . i.e. jamate ahmadiiyat .
That event is to take place with in next 8 years Or 34 Years Or 37 years Or 46 years. Or
near these dates
2) Caliph of the ahmadiiyat had to migrate because of his atrocities.
3) That pheroo will not be able to kill Caliph of the ahmadiyyat
4) God will protect the jamate ahmadiiay
5) Ahmadiyyat will be saved from that Pheroo in the month of the Muharram. That Is like the old pheroo of the hazrat Mossa (as) time , who was killed in the month of the muharam , the new pheroo ( which will show himself in next 46 years by committing atrocities against the ahmadiyyat will be killed in the muharam)




see the words Or and Either above???


you know what would explain how followers of these prophets are able to relate random events to prophecies? this verse of the Holy Quran:

[Yusufali 2:6 - 26]

As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not! In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!" Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not. When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting." Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,
Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

Or (another similitude) is that of a rain-laden cloud from the sky: In it are zones of darkness, and thunder and lightning: They press their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder-clap, the while they are in terror of death. But Allah is ever round the rejecters of Faith! The lightning all but snatches away their sight; every time the light (Helps) them, they walk therein, and when the darkness grows on them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; for Allah hath power over all things.O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness; Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth). And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever). Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-
The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"
Sahih al-Bukhari; Sahih Muslim; Sunan Ibn Majah; Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal;
alithered
 
Posts: 375
Joined: 10 Nov 2010, 10:40

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby AhmedC » 13 Nov 2010, 21:22

The rest of it is all post facto craziness, but . . . . here is the hadith:

Numan ibn Sad reported from Sayyidina Ali that a man asked him, “In which month after Ramadan, do you command me to fast?” He said, “I did not hear anyone ask about it except a man whom I heard ask Alah’s Messenger (SAW) while I was sitting by him. So, he had asked, 0 Messenger of Allah! Which month, besides the month of Ramadan do you command me that I should fast?’ He had said, ‘If I were to fast besides the month of Ramadan then I would fast during Muharram, for, it is the month of Allah’ There is a day in it when Allah accepted the repentance of a people and, on it, will relent towards another people (too)”.

Means, that if you fast on a specific date in Muharram, God will accept the repentance of members of the Muslim nation.
AhmedC
 
Posts: 122
Joined: 01 Mar 2008, 05:01

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby khalid nawaz » 23 Nov 2010, 11:52

AhmedC wrote:The rest of it is all post facto craziness, but . . . . here is the hadith:

Numan ibn Sad reported from Sayyidina Ali that a man asked him, “In which month after Ramadan, do you command me to fast?” He said, “I did not hear anyone ask about it except a man whom I heard ask Alah’s Messenger (SAW) while I was sitting by him. So, he had asked, 0 Messenger of Allah! Which month, besides the month of Ramadan do you command me that I should fast?’ He had said, ‘If I were to fast besides the month of Ramadan then I would fast during Muharram, for, it is the month of Allah’ There is a day in it when Allah accepted the repentance of a people and, on it, will relent towards another people (too)”.

Means, that if you fast on a specific date in Muharram, God will accept the repentance of members of the Muslim nation.



No my dear, you cannot now play with hadith . keep in the mind that it is a fact that Hazrat Mossa (as) was saved from the Pheroo in the month of the Muharram .


bn 'Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, reported that the Prophet, peace be upon him, came to Madinah and saw the Jews fasting on the day of 'Ashura. He asked:

"What is this?"

They said: "This is a righteous day, it is the day when Allah saved the Children of Israel from their enemies, so Musa fasted on this day." He said:

"We have more right to Musa than you," so he fasted on that day and commanded [the Muslims] to fast on that day.
BUkhari


and referring to the old people and then the people with the AKHAREEN is a clue that event of the pharoh shall be repeated once again.

like the old people i.e child of israle ,saved from the Pheroah on the Muharram , so as in the future one Pheroah shall be perished in the month of teh Muhrram.

Moreover , this prediction was made in 1945 and its fulfillment came on the 1988 , 43 years before it was foretold .

Death of the Pheroah i.e. Gen. Zia Ul HaQ , sealed the truthfulness of the interpretation of the hadith .

you cannot play with it at all Mr Ahmad
khalid nawaz
 
Posts: 738
Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 14:39

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby xiaahmad » 23 Nov 2010, 12:01

So UK is promised Land for Ahmadies :)???
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: "Indeed, messengership and Prophethood have terminated. So, there is no Messenger after me and no Prophet”.
(Jami' Tirmidhi, hadith 2272
xiaahmad
 
Posts: 1801
Joined: 15 Jan 2009, 18:08

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby alithered » 23 Nov 2010, 12:52

yay khalid is back, and completely ignores my previous post... :D
The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"
Sahih al-Bukhari; Sahih Muslim; Sunan Ibn Majah; Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal;
alithered
 
Posts: 375
Joined: 10 Nov 2010, 10:40

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby alithered » 23 Nov 2010, 13:19

wasnt Moses departing with all his people?????
The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"
Sahih al-Bukhari; Sahih Muslim; Sunan Ibn Majah; Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal;
alithered
 
Posts: 375
Joined: 10 Nov 2010, 10:40

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby khalid nawaz » 24 Nov 2010, 05:30

alithered wrote:
why not , you did answered but there is one problem your MIGHT BE theroy cannot be used for second caliph at all. because it is highly unlikely that at that time General zia ul haq was even in the army .


but it can be used for the fourth who called it 5 days before... as per the jamaat that is...

you are not getting my point, i am not making an accusation, it is not a statement, i said, am just speculating, raising an eyebrow, suspecting.....



thanks for admitting that such speculation cannot be made for the second caliph prophecy .
so he had some source , which is beyond the human capability . . and that is GOD .

he wrote this prophecy in quran , in surra al fajar
then GOD told this to his prophet hazrat Muhammad (saw)
then GOD told this to his prophet hazrat Messiah Maood (as)
then to his Caliph , mriza Basheer (rz)
and then to his caliph hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (rz).


you should have thought that your presented rule cannot be applied to all. hence your rule is totally wrong.
Such is the majesty of the prophecy made by True prophets that there exist chain in their prophecies.

one prophet's prophecies are re-iterated by the other one...

but for liars no such support exist ..










i also showed that such speculation are always propagated , what could be a good example other then from quran .
just go over the incident of the hazrat Mosa (as) , which i showed you that hwo one miracle caused a handful of Magician accepting him as the prophet of the GOD , while the Pheroo presented the MIGHT BE theory.



with regard to the miracle of Moses P.B.U.H, please read the short commentary by K4 available on http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?p ... &region=EN .. its quite baffling, and paradoxical... one of the things that basically disgusted me... anyways, it is mentioned that there was no miracle, and instead of turning the rod into a real serpent, God decided to create a vision in which the rod turned into a serpent...



from where the miracle of hazrat Mosa (as) came , explain...





please do tell me the difference between prophecies of true and false prophets... with regard to wikipedia, i dont see any criticisms of bahai miracles, which were pretty interesting, as against those of MGAQ's which motly revolved around the deaths of his opponents, and ofcourse the failed marriage proposal..




why should i , do not you have the quran to learn .....
tell me first that how the prophecies of the hazat Muhammad (saw) and other prophets are differnt from bahais , lets see your knowledge first.




Ahmadi' are the only ones who have the concept of conditional prophecies..that after the prophecy, xyz repented, and so the prophecy was not fulfilled... i see them as cunningly phrased threats.. rather than prophecies... what? did God not know that Muhammadi Begum family would repent before he revealed this prophecy to MGAQ?... Prophecies are not conditional and not in parts, and if in parts, even if one is not fulfilled, than the entire prophecy is to be considered false.. LOGIC 101




this is the height of your knowledge dear . so you say conditional prophecies does not exist , , ,
now as you are not a prophet or saint can you please take time to prove your this assertion from quran ,
where quran and GOD told you that conditional prophecies do not exist . . .





you know what would explain how followers of these prophets are able to relate random events to prophecies? this verse of the Holy Quran:



if my caliph was able to randomly tell these events then every thing is clear,

one might say , randomly humas got created and lief started to evolve on the earth.
one might even say by connecting random thought (GOD FORBADE ) quran came in to born . .

why your this random theory stops only at ahmadiyyat.

a foolish thing to assert. . .


if my caliph could have predicted random event , then was the whole muslim ummah was barren that none of them could produce such a random events prediction .

pity pity and pity





your long ayyat quotation is beyond my comprehension that why you quoted them . can you please elaborate them
khalid nawaz
 
Posts: 738
Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 14:39

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby khalid nawaz » 24 Nov 2010, 05:34

alithered wrote:wasnt Moses departing with all his people?????


what the point ????
khalid nawaz
 
Posts: 738
Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 14:39

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby xiaahmad » 24 Nov 2010, 06:21

THis time so called moses just ran away himself :D
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: "Indeed, messengership and Prophethood have terminated. So, there is no Messenger after me and no Prophet”.
(Jami' Tirmidhi, hadith 2272
xiaahmad
 
Posts: 1801
Joined: 15 Jan 2009, 18:08

Re: Zia ul haq death, A great prophecy for ahmadiyyat truth

Postby alithered » 24 Nov 2010, 16:32

ok... this is getting boring and i feel i am getting no where, and i know that even if i prove you wrong 100 times, like others on this forum, you'de never accept it, but then, i am no prophet and i cant tell the future, maybe, just maybe it would make a difference to an educated ahmadi... so here goes...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

thanks for admitting that such speculation cannot be made for the second caliph prophecy .
so he had some source , which is beyond the human capability . . and that is GOD .

he wrote this prophecy in quran , in surra al fajar
then GOD told this to his prophet hazrat Muhammad (saw)
then GOD told this to his prophet hazrat Messiah Maood (as)
then to his Caliph , mriza Basheer (rz)
and then to his caliph hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (rz).


1. Please quote me the exact verse of Surah Al Fajar... you do know that an ahmadi interpretation of the verse in support of the notion that this was indeed a prophecy, is going to be circular reasoning... right.. you are aware of that... thats Logic.. for example, telling a Christian that Holy Prophet P.B.U.H is a prophet because the Quran says so.. now am guessing that you mean verses 89:12-14.. I would like you to present the interpretation of this verse by any Mujaddid's of the past...

2. Again, with respect to the Hadith of the Holy Prophet, please present the Hadith, that categorically says that like Pharoah of the past, the enemy of Masih Maood or Isa (either would work) would perish in Muharram.

Now, up till this point, we have discussed sayings of Allah SWT and Holy Prophet P.B.U.H, both of whom cannot be accused of lying, so unless you present the evidence i sought above, i would explain how you are able to associate these verses with your so called prophecy, its called Subjective Validation... look it up..

3 and 4, your caliphs, you are saying, that Allah revealed to your caliph, that the enemy of ahmadiyya would be punished or whatever, in EITHER of the following: 8, 34, 37, 46 years... does that mean that there would be enemies during all these periods and Allah would punish only one? or does it mean that an enemy will rise in one of these time frames and would be punished... interestingly, you CHOOSE to associate the death of zia, undoubtedly in Muharram, with your "Either/Or" prophecy which took place after 43 years, a difference of 3 years is not "on or about that date"...

you should have thought that your presented rule cannot be applied to all. hence your rule is totally wrong.


i applied it only to one of your caliphs.. and please, your notion that a theory is wrong if it cvant be applied to all, is called generalization, and that, is wrong, not my theory about one specific person..

from where the miracle of hazrat Mosa (as) came , explain...

we believe that the rod actually turned into a serpent by the will of Allah, we dont believe that Allah created an illusion, thereby leading people into thinking that it actually happened, causing them to unwittingly believe in the God of Moses who in reality didnt turn the rod into a serpent... that is deception, and this theory is invented by "those" who could not perform miracles themselves and chose to belittle those of true prophets... you do agree that a fake prophet would be motivated to belittle true miracles and dismiss them as hoax right...

tell me first that how the prophecies of the hazat Muhammad (saw) and other prophets are differnt from bahais , lets see your knowledge first.


The prophecies of Hazrat Muhammad P.B.U.H are not to be examined here because unlike MGAQ, the prophecies of Hazrat Muhammad were not the sole proof of his claim.. it was his message... on the other hand, MGAq, in order to respond to his opponents, used abuse and made prophecies of their deaths (which sounded a lot like threats) ... but for argument sake, show me one prophecy of Hazrat Muhammad P.B.U.H that was PROVEN wrong, not those which are yet to ocur, but those that were proven WRONG, we find ample examples in MGAQ's prophecies...

one more thing you need to know about prophecies that even evil, yes, evil the evil people, have made correct prophecies, for example the advisors of Pharoah who prophesised the coming of Moses, would you call them Prophets? would you rather die than lose faith in them???

Therefore, in short, to make my point clear, a failed prophecy is the sign of a false prophet, whereas a fulfilled prophecy is NOT and NEVER has been the "primary" sign of a True Prophet. MGA's prophecies, failed and failed miserably, those you call true, are again, veeery subjective and generalized, and of course, conditional.. same applies to the prophecies of Bahaullah, "Napolean will Fall", ofcourse at some point that was bound to happen..

ok i will make a prophecy, but you would have to accept me as your divine guide ok...

"in the next post, Khalid Nawaz will use Vowels", and, here is the bait, "in the next post, Khalid Nawaz will admit that MGAQ was a liar or he will die"..

if my caliph was able to randomly tell these events then every thing is clear,


if my caliph could have predicted random event , then was the whole muslim ummah was barren that none of them could produce such a random events prediction .

pity pity and pity


read my post again, i said, you people are able to "relate" random events with prophecies, i NEVER said your caliph was able to "TELL" random events, there is a difference.. SELECTIVE VALIDATION

one might say , randomly humas got created and lief started to evolve on the earth.
one might even say by connecting random thought (GOD FORBADE ) quran came in to born . .

why your this random theory stops only at ahmadiyyat.

a foolish thing to assert. . .


this is again, a generalisation, it is impossible to deduce that i consider "life" as random just because i called your "prophetic event" a coincidence...

somebody gotta teach this guy some logic...
The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"
Sahih al-Bukhari; Sahih Muslim; Sunan Ibn Majah; Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal;
alithered
 
Posts: 375
Joined: 10 Nov 2010, 10:40

PreviousNext

Return to Main Discussion Area

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron