New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

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Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby ramesh » 08 Jul 2012, 20:58

Predator

no i was born Muslim this user name was created by some one else for me to see the ahmedi belief

i have previously introduced my self

its nearly two years now i was talking to a christen (i used to only talk with them at that time) and was doing dawa when he came up with the claim that a well know Muslim scholar has confirmed that EsaAS died and also was put on cross (they say "wa mutawafee ka wa rafeeoo ka eliya " means" i will cause you to die on cross and Resurrect you on third day" ) and claim that ahmedi translation confirms that, i never thought that any muslim has ever said so (i knew very well that ahmedis have weird belief system but never knew that they translate quran in that way, so ramesh one of my freinds who was in this talk on the day introduced my to this forum for me to see their belief, since then i am using his name

d'awa to ahmedis was never my field but it was just the incident which brought me here and since then i have learnt a lot about them using this forum
RK V 9 p 468 Esa AS died at the age of 33,RK V 15 p 499 died at the age of 125,RK V 14 P 154 died at the age of 120,Page 30 of tohfa nadva deid at 83
died in Galile RH v3 p 353-354, died in al qudas RK v8 p 296-297, died in Kashmir RK V18 p 320 & 358 what is true about EsaAS?
ramesh
 
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Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby Hussain » 08 Jul 2012, 21:02

If Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was born in 1835 then you have admit he was liar when he said he was born in 1839/40. It's that simple.
"The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)
Hussain
 
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Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby khalid nawaz » 10 Jul 2012, 11:26

Calendar Types: Solar, Lunar and Lunisolar Calendars

Calendar Year Length

In a solar calendar the intention is to organize the calendar year to synchronize with the seasonal cycle. This is most usually measured as the average time between successive northern vernal equinoxes, equal to 365.2424 days (called the vernal equinox year).
Since calendars are a way of tracking days, each calendar year naturally has a whole number of days. Thus, solar calendars typically define patterns of years 365 and 366 days in length in order to produce an average length of about 365.24 days.
In a lunar calendar, such as the Islamic, the calendar year is defined as 12 lunations, about 354.36 days on average. This is about 11 days shorter than the vernal equinox year, and hence the seasonal markers tend to shift in the calendar, occuring about 11 days later each year.
Lunisolar calendars solve this problem by introducing an intercalary month (also called an "embolismic" month) every 2 or 3 years, so that the average year length matches the seasonal cycle. As 365.24 ÷ 29.53 = 12.37 lunations, some years thus have 12 months (lunations) = 354.36 days (avg.), and others have 13 lunations = 383.39 days.
Reference http://earthcalendar.info/CalendarTypes.php

Corollary

Hindu calendar is lunisolar calendar which follows the lunar movements. Months in Hindi lunisolar calendar follows the start and end of Islamic months.

One important fact

There is one important point which should be kept in mind. Wiki says.
“There are two different systems for making the lunar calendar:
• amavasyanta or mukhya mana system – a month begins with a new moon, mostly followed in the southern states
• purnimanta or gauna mana system – a month begins with a full moon, followed more in the North.”
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_calendar
(it depends on the calendar system whether Dark Moon or Full Moon is accepted as the end of the month)
Reference: http://www.freebsd.nfo.sk/hinduism/festivals.htm


Impact of different system to calculate start of month on calculation of DOB of promised Messiah (as)


This fact has important impact on the start of month of phalguna. In Qadian, the start of the month of hindi calendar is from the 14thof the moon date , in accordance with the purnimanta or gauna mana system.

These are the facts which one should keep in the mind now I take the allegations of the ramesh one by one.

Allegation no 1

http://www.prokerala.com/general/calend ... la=en&sb=1
they are trying to assume taht hindi calander is lunar and starts by 14 of moon whihc is untrue instead it starts by the middle of georgian calander (not 15 always)”

Allegation no 2
” hindi calander which is standardised is a solar calander which shows that only hindu festivals are calculated using lunar movements and calander itself is not lunar calander (just like easter of christens ) which refutes your assumption taht 14 of lunar month will always be 1 of hindu month ”

Allegation no 3
”” 5; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_national_calendar
shows the calender which is used mostly in north has phaluguna starting on 20 of feb and your assumption of phulugna starting from 13 of feb has no grounds it is just another lie to convince the cult and its followers

All three allegations are due to the lack of knowledge of mr ramesh. Mr ramesh could not comprehend that Indian national calendar was adopted in 1957 and is not lunisolar calendar, but is a solar calendar. This calendar has a fix starting dates of all the months. Ramesh is right that phalaguan starts from 20 feb , but this start day was fixed in 1957 . In the time of the promised Messiah (as) phalaguna did not started on 20 feb . in those times , a lunisolar calendar was used which followed the phases of moon.
Can a calendar, adopted in 1957, be used for calculating days of 1835?
Off course it cannot be done. So these three allegations of Mr ramesh are baseless.
khalid nawaz
 
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Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby khalid nawaz » 10 Jul 2012, 11:26

Allegation 5

“1; if a lunar month is split into two halfs it will be from 15 and 16 of lunar month should be first then only a 30 days month will be split into two starting form full moon but if we take your assumption to be true and start month form 14 to be first them by 30 of lunar month it will already be 17 of hindi month (as per your assumption ) no where in wikipedia artical of yours says you can split lunar month in that way and if we start hindi month of phalugana from 16 of lunar month by 13 of feb that will not even start ”


. Keep inventing and presenting hypotheses. But your assumption cannot change the facts.
Wiki says
“There are two different systems for making the lunar calendar:
 amavasyanta or mukhya mana system – a month begins with a new moon, mostly followed in the southern states
 purnimanta or gauna mana system – a month begins with a full moon, followed more in the North.

Reference : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_calendar
(it depends on the calendar system whether Dark Moon or Full Moon is accepted as the end of the month)
Reference: http://www.freebsd.nfo.sk/hinduism/festivals.htm

1-A month begins with new moon.
Or
2- A month begins with full moon i.e 14th of moon day.

Allegation 6
; your own wikipedia artical says hindi calander is lunisolar and you are trying to use it as a perfact lunar calander which is untrue on example of such calander is christean calander event of easter which is calculated by lunar month but falls in a solar month so you are ignoring this simple fact

hindi calander which is standardised is a solar calander which shows that only hindu festivals are calculated using lunar movements and calander itself is not lunar calander (just like easter of christens ) which refutes your assumption taht 14 of lunar month will always be 1 of hindu month

Off course its lunisolar calendar, but I have explained earlier that lunisolar calendar follows the lunar calendar and adds extra month after few years to account for the lost days. Once again your problem is that you do not understand that current calendar was adopted in 1957. You are using that colander and wasting our time.

Allegation 7
“ 6; http://www.theholidayspot.com/baisakhi/history.htm
baisakhi which is well know seikh festival is celebrated since 1699 (well before the birth of MGA) and is celebrated on same day of 13 april which shows taht hindi calander was linked to georgian calender well before MGA birth and and was not linked to lunar calander as you assume ”


Now this point is also false. I am using Hindi lunisolar, but you are talking about a day which is celebrated on the base of solar movement.
“Baisakhi is a derivative of Vaishakha. After harvesting the winter crop, the farmers of the northern states of Punjab and Haryana celebrate the beginning of another year. The day coincides with the solar equinox on the 13th of April.”
Reference: http://www.theholidayspot.com/baisakhi/history.htm

Now tell me how you can present to me an event which is celebrated on the base of solar movement.
We are discussing a lunisolar calendar , which is based on lunar movement.
Also read Wiki .
Correspondence of the lunisolar calendar to the solar calendar
A lunisolar calendar is always a calendar based on the moon's celestial motion, which in a way keeps itself close to a solar calendar based on the sun's (apparent) celestial motion. That is, the lunisolar calendar's new year is to kept always close (within certain limits) to a solar calendar's new year.
Since the Hindu lunar month names are based on solar transits, and the month of Chaitra will, as defined above, always be close to the solar month of Mesha, the Hindu lunisolar calendar will always keep in track with the Hindu solar calendar.
The Hindu solar calendar by contrast starts on April 14–15 each year. This signifies the sun's "entry" into Mesha rashi and is celebrated as the New Year inAssam, Bengal, Orissa, Manipur, Kerala, Punjab, Tamil Nadu and Tripura. The first month of the year is called "Chitterai (சித்திரை" in Tamil, "Medam" in Malayalam and Bohag in Assamese, Baisakh in Bengali/Punjabi and Nepali. This solar new year is celebrated on the same day in Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos,Nepal and Thailand due to Tamil influence on those countries.

I think this is sufficient.

As a summary I would like to say
1. lunisolar calendar follows the lunar movement and is replica of Islamic months.
2. In Qadian , start of hindi lunisolar month was from 14th of moon day .
3. As evident from the [http://www.thecult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=670] , only the year 1835 has fulfilled the criterion of three conditions.
4. If you do not want to accept this , no problem. You are fighting with GOD. Our job was to explain all the things as much as we can.
khalid nawaz
 
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Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby ramesh » 10 Jul 2012, 21:46

khalid

you said
If you do not want to accept this , no problem. You are fighting with GOD. Our job was to explain all the things as much as we can.


you are not God and do not even call your self to be God even in ahmedis it is blasphemy !!!!!!!!

now coming to your replies
you provided the web link
http://www.freebsd.nfo.sk/hinduism/festivals.htm

if you read it for your self it tells you that hindi calander is called lunosolar because it is and i quote

Before you look at dates of Hindu festivals, please read a little summary of the complex and difficult-to-understand calendar systems used in India. These systems follow the position of the Moon (like the one used for calculation of Christian Easter).


calculation of festivals is done by moon movements like easter (as i said in my previous post)

it also tells u

The Bengali Calendar (introduced in 1584) is widely used in eastern India. The Bengali year corresponding to the year 2010 is 1417. The Bengali year is always 593 years behind the Gregorian Calendar


the calender which was standardised 428 years ago was linked to Georgian calendar and you are assuming taht this linking was only done in 1957

and if indian government made a mistake to link hindi calander to georgian then all over india it would not be accepted because as per you assumptions all of hindi (different variants ) were only lunosolar calenders and changing it to solar calender will make it more unacceptable instead of making it widely acceptable calender for all

if you have eyes then open them and see the facts

i have also shown you all different variants and all of them have some months with 31 days if standerd hindi calender was standerdised only in 1957 then rest still should follow the lunar months of max 30 days

your provided web link also says

Various differences in lunisolar calendars ensue from different opinions/customs used to specify the time when a month ends - it is either Full Moon (purnimanta) or Dark Moon (amanta). Thus, the month can start/end at different times in two calendar systems.


with full moon month ends and next day will be the first so 14 of islamic month can by no means be the first of phulgana any way !!!!like wise with dark moon month ends and next day is first as we have it

you quoted web site also says

The term "Panchangam" (astrological calendar) means five attributes, which are: Tithi, Vaar, Nakshatra, Yoga, and Karana. Panchangam is a Hindu astrological calendar.


clearly astrological calender which tracks both sun and moon and other stars is a totally different thing and you are using this to argue that the actual hindi calender is astrogological calender which is some thing hindus them self do not say

you are assuming that untill 1957 hindi calender was like the ancient Arab or Jewish(which even exists today) calender but all the evidance you have provided refute yourself but lets assume it to be true for a moment then

phulagana is last month of hindi calender and your provided wiki link tell you tell u that hindi lunar and i repeat lunar calender has only 12 months there is no 13th month as you assume see it for your self

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_calendar#Month_names

and they are all linked to 12 zodiac signs

still lets say there is 13th month and phulagna is 12 th moth and starts in february then who decides and where is evidance that 1835 did not had the extara month and phulagna has not ended in february for the sake of adding the extra month in the specific year ????????????????????????????????????????????????????

you are on a mission impossible

why not accept what you own so called prophet himself has said that he was born some where in 1839 or 1840 and he was 16/17 in 1857 and had no mustash
if he was born in 1835 then in 1857 he should be 22 and should have had the beard and mustach (or may be he was a third sex and got his beard and mustach much later because of harmone changes in the third sex ppl)
RK V 9 p 468 Esa AS died at the age of 33,RK V 15 p 499 died at the age of 125,RK V 14 P 154 died at the age of 120,Page 30 of tohfa nadva deid at 83
died in Galile RH v3 p 353-354, died in al qudas RK v8 p 296-297, died in Kashmir RK V18 p 320 & 358 what is true about EsaAS?
ramesh
 
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Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby rationalist » 10 Jul 2012, 22:58

@ Khalid

1. Where's your boyfriend, i.e. Batman?? Seems like he doesnt play on the road...lol
"Ahmadiyyat robbed me, didnt educate me properly"
rationalist
 
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Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby khalid nawaz » 14 Jul 2012, 21:12

ramesh wrote:khalid

you said
If you do not want to accept this , no problem. You are fighting with GOD. Our job was to explain all the things as much as we can.


you are not God and do not even call your self to be God even in ahmedis it is blasphemy !!!!!!!!



are you all right ? what do you wanna say ? Do you wanna say that i called my self GOD ( God forbade)? salute to your comprehension abilities.

now coming to your replies
you provided the web link
http://www.freebsd.nfo.sk/hinduism/festivals.htm

if you read it for your self it tells you that hindi calander is called lunosolar because it is and i quote

Before you look at dates of Hindu festivals, please read a little summary of the complex and difficult-to-understand calendar systems used in India. These systems follow the position of the Moon (like the one used for calculation of Christian Easter).


pointed it
calculation of festivals is done by moon movements like easter (as i said in my previous post)



Impressive. so what did you prove ? why following the position of the Moon is so weird that you specifically . what so special in calculation of festivals. In islamic word we follow gegorian calendar but every islamic event is calculated using lunar based calendar . every one knows it.


The Bengali Calendar (introduced in 1584) is widely used in eastern India. The Bengali year corresponding to the year 2010 is 1417. The Bengali year is always 593 years behind the Gregorian Calendar


the calender which was standardised 428 years ago was linked to Georgian calendar and you are assuming taht this linking was only done in 1957


were you deprived of sleep when you wrote this. From where the discussion of bengali calendar jumped in?
we are talking about HINDU calender system and Indian National Calendar system was adopted in year 1957 . and it is the calender in which month of PHALAGUNA starts from 20 feb .

whereas banglai calendar is concerned , I have no problem with it. But let me tell you one thing . in the Bangali Calendar month of PHALAGUAN starts from 13 Feb.

oppps ramesh will never discuss the bangali calendar ever in his life now.

and if indian government made a mistake to link hindi calander to georgian then all over india it would not be accepted because as per you assumptions all of hindi (different variants ) were only lunosolar calenders and changing it to solar calender will make it more unacceptable instead of making it widely acceptable calender for all
if you have eyes then open them and see the facts

Great speech . but totally irrelevant.

i have also shown you all different variants and all of them have some months with 31 days if standerd hindi calender was standerdised only in 1957 then rest still should follow the lunar months of max 30 days


ahhh i really do not know what you are talking about. You have been proven totally wrong . I took each and every of your point to prove them wrong.
There is nothing in this post which is relevant. you are writing without any purpose.

your provided web link also says

Various differences in lunisolar calendars ensue from different opinions/customs used to specify the time when a month ends - it is either Full Moon (purnimanta) or Dark Moon (amanta). Thus, the month can start/end at different times in two calendar systems.


with full moon month ends and next day will be the first so 14 of islamic month can by no means be the first of phulgana any way !!!!like wise with dark moon month ends and next day is first as we have it


with full moon month ends and new month starts. Is this so hard for any one to understand. When we sight new moon of SHAWAL, Ramazan ends and Shawal begins.

so when 14th of Moon dates comes, it ends the month of MAGHA and start the month of phalguna.

a fact even a child could have understood it but ramesh is ramesh.



phulagana is last month of hindi calender and your provided wiki link tell you tell u that hindi lunar and i repeat lunar calender has only 12 months there is no 13th month as you assume see it for your self
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_calendar#Month_names


Lunisolar calendars solve this problem by introducing an intercalary month (also called an "embolismic" month) every 2 or 3 years, so that the average year length matches the seasonal cycle. As 365.24 ÷ 29.53 = 12.37 lunations, some years thus have 12 months (lunations) = 354.36 days (avg.), and others have 13 lunations = 383.39 days.
Reference http://earthcalendar.info/CalendarTypes.php


Also

Since the calender is based on the phases of the moon, the twelve as above take 354 days, 8 hours and 34.28 seconds. This creates a difference of 10 days, 21 hours and 35.16 seconds from the actual solar year (365 days, 6 hours, 9.54 seconds)

When the accumulated difference exceeds 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes and 2.865 seconds, an adjustment id made with a extra month (Adhika Maas), which carries the name of the previous or the next month, depending on the proximity of the month. Normally, seven extra months occur in 19 years.


Reference : http://www.greatdreams.com/hincal.htm

learn some lesson dear. you are needlessly jumping. you have nothing to prove. addition of one month in a lunisolar calendar is not my assumption. its a reality.
khalid nawaz
 
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Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby ramesh » 15 Jul 2012, 12:43

khalid
with full moon month ends and new month starts. Is this so hard for any one to understand. When we sight new moon of SHAWAL, Ramazan ends and Shawal begins.

so when 14th of Moon dates comes, it ends the month of MAGHA and start the month of phalguna.

a fact even a child could have understood it but ramesh is ramesh.


u have proved your self to be not even equal to child in ur mental growth

if lunar month ends on 29 the same 29 is not first of next month what u are trying to prove it 14 of month is last day of month magha and same 14 is also the first of phulagana (other wise 13 feb will not be phulagana )

what does that proves u to be a child or even less that than him also ????????????
are you all right ? what do you wanna say ? Do you wanna say that i called my self GOD ( God forbade)? salute to your comprehension abilities.


if at teh end of ur home made comments u say i am fighting with God what does taht mean ???????
what so special in calculation of festivals. In islamic word we follow gegorian calendar but every islamic event is calculated using lunar based calendar . every one knows it.

in islamic world (except saudi) we use two calanders islamic festivals are found in lunar calander but but hindu and chiratens do not have two calanders they just go to specific solar month and see the moon phases

i hope u got the difference

see waht ur own presented wikipedia has the section on the lost month and u are trying to base all of ur argument that after every 3 years there is an extra month (as it is in jewish or ancient arabic calander) did thoes two calanders had lsot months also ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_calendar#Lost_months

on bangali calander u missed the whole point (if u see all of hindi callanders u will find some starting the phalugana before 13 of february also ) that is not the point but the fact that some calanders which were standardised long before MGA birth were linked to georgian calander which clearly shows that this linking did not occur in 1957 by Indian government but it was done long long long time before birth of MGA

and that put my next point into context which u ignored as irrelevant (when some one does not have any thing to answer they do say things like that )

Lunisolar calendars solve this problem by introducing an intercalary month (also called an "embolismic" month) every 2 or 3 years, so that the average year length matches the seasonal cycle. As 365.24 ÷ 29.53 = 12.37 lunations, some years thus have 12 months (lunations) = 354.36 days (avg.), and others have 13 lunations = 383.39 days.


why u ignore taht in some years hindi calander loses one month also see
Special Case:
If there is no solar transit in one lunar month but there are two transits in the next lunar month,


how this will be explained in ur calculations of months

these lost or special cases show u the fact that hindi calander is astrological calander and has nothigh to do with lunar or solar calanders which is completely differenct to the old arabic calander or jewish calander which had one extra month after every 3 years

also hindi calander has no such extan month it just has 12 months in a year and some of months are of 31days and this point u do not even try to attempt how a lunar calander can have 31 days ?????????????????

does moon in qadian rises some times after 31 days to justify MGA date of birth ?????????????????
RK V 9 p 468 Esa AS died at the age of 33,RK V 15 p 499 died at the age of 125,RK V 14 P 154 died at the age of 120,Page 30 of tohfa nadva deid at 83
died in Galile RH v3 p 353-354, died in al qudas RK v8 p 296-297, died in Kashmir RK V18 p 320 & 358 what is true about EsaAS?
ramesh
 
Posts: 144
Joined: 27 Dec 2010, 12:41

Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby ramesh » 15 Jul 2012, 12:55

see the master of all non sense says

13 feb 1835 is friday 14 of lunar month but when it comes to hindi calander he says

14 (friday 13 feb )is last day of magha but at the same time same 14 is also the first of phulagana

like saying today sunday 15/07/2012 is actually the 15/07 and 16/07 also
or today 15/07 is sunday and monday also at the same time just to justify the MGA date of birth

lololololo
RK V 9 p 468 Esa AS died at the age of 33,RK V 15 p 499 died at the age of 125,RK V 14 P 154 died at the age of 120,Page 30 of tohfa nadva deid at 83
died in Galile RH v3 p 353-354, died in al qudas RK v8 p 296-297, died in Kashmir RK V18 p 320 & 358 what is true about EsaAS?
ramesh
 
Posts: 144
Joined: 27 Dec 2010, 12:41

Re: New data on the birth of Mirza --thank you Batman

Postby khalid nawaz » 15 Jul 2012, 14:22

ramesh wrote:see the master of all non sense says

13 feb 1835 is friday 14 of lunar month but when it comes to hindi calander he says

14 (friday 13 feb )is last day of magha but at the same time same 14 is also the first of phulagana

like saying today sunday 15/07/2012 is actually the 15/07 and 16/07 also
or today 15/07 is sunday and monday also at the same time just to justify the MGA date of birth

lololololo


you are extra ordinary intelligent person. but you are not alone . All thecult team has the same great power of comprehension.

Islamic calendar.

20 Julay 2012
29 Shaban
on 29th shaban evening new moon is sighted.
shaban ends with 29 days.
and Ramazan begins.
on 21st July 2012
Ramazan will have 1st day.
moon have first day as well.

a new moon on 29th evening ended the "shaban" and started the "Ramazan".

Hindi calendar starting with full moon.

on the 12 Feb 1835

it was 13 Shawal 1250 . and MAGHA 29 ( or 30 it depends ).

it was the 13th moon day as well.

in 12 feb evening , full moon was to appear.
14th moon appeared on 12th feb evening.

13 shawal ended. and 14th shawal started.

Magha ended with 29 ( or 30) days.

Phalguna started with 1st day.
from 12th feb evening to 13th feb evening , it will be 14th of shawal and 1st of Phalguan.

a Full moon on 12th Feb 1835 evening ended the "Mahgha" with 29 (or 30) days and started the "Phalguna" with its first day .

so simple calculation. I again say even a child could have make this calculation.

but Ramesh you are great.

Keep it up.
khalid nawaz
 
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