John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

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Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby shahid » 27 Aug 2010, 19:13

You're having a laugh, right?
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Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby xiaahmad » 27 Aug 2010, 19:47

aqeel is blaming the translator in making the challenge what ever he wished :O

aqeel are you really serious or u accept that u will come up with any absurd logic just to depend MGA?
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: "Indeed, messengership and Prophethood have terminated. So, there is no Messenger after me and no Prophet”.
(Jami' Tirmidhi, hadith 2272
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Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby Predator » 27 Aug 2010, 21:01

@ Aqeel

Salam !

I only have only a few words for you :

Correct your facts ! :geek:
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Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby Hussain » 28 Aug 2010, 20:40

Ahh yes... This is a reply from aqeel to my post on the alislam forum where I posted the following:

Again, all emotional drivel from being hurt that this prophecy clearly failed. Why do you keep discussing aspects which have nothing to do with the actual prophecy. Talk about the prophecy of your Indian Messiah.

Your Indian Messiah never made ANY challenge. FACT.

Your Indian Messiah told him to repent OR die. FACT.

Your Indian Messiah said the liar would die in the lifetime of the other. FACT.

Your Indian Messiah died first. FACT.

Pigott never repented and boasted that he was GOD in 1909. After your Indian Messiah died. FACT.

The prophecy failed. FACT.

Refute the facts instead of your emotional hurt.


Aqeel, my sincere advice to you is as follows... Please... I mean this genuinely... Look up, learn and memorise the meaning of the word 'fact' before using it.
"The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)
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Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby abdulghaffar » 30 Aug 2010, 04:58

is correct and was proved superior over a Muslim


The Truth is the Truth. If a Muslim speaks it over a non-Muslim, then he has spoken the Truth. If a non-Muslim speaks it over a Muslim, then he has spoken the Truth. There need not be any "consequences" of "Oh! Allah is going to be so pleased with you since you are taking the non-Muslim side".

If a "Muslim" says Allah is 3 in one or that he is a prophet and a kafir says no, He is one and he is NOT a prophet, then I'll take the later stance every day of the week. Divorcing one's emotions from their understanding of Islam is a huge step that everyone should take.
"Every claim to prophethood after him is falsehood and deceit." -Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH)
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Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby aqeel » 01 Sep 2010, 10:17

Bismillah hiraman nira heem.

dear brothers in Islam,
first of all thank you for at least reading my reply.

Mr. Hussain and MR. Predator. I am really sorry that a fact is a fact regardless of who says it. You have not pointed out one single fact from my reply which is not a fact. For your convenience ill post my reply again.

Abdulghaffar sahib. The point I was trying to make. Yes your right 'one should divorce one's emotions...' but the holy prophet (saaw) 's instructions are very clear that emotions should be divorced up until it comes to Allah Talah, then he instructs that a Muslim's emotions should arise and that they should reply. (hence I mentioned the hadees). Mr. Piggot claimed to be God almighty and not just the messiah. Had he just claimed to be the messiah I would agree with your point of view.

As you guys only understand facts so here we go:

Fact: The promised Messiah: as: never spoke or understood English.

Fact: Someone else would have to translate the article in to English.

Fact: The person translating from Urdu to English must have translated whatever the Promised Mesiah said in Urdu to just one word “repent” as they understood it.

Fact: The claim of Simon Piggot was made very public before the challenge from his own words and declarations.

Fact: Your research is based on what his followers believed and NOT HIS OWN declaration after the challenge.

Fact: Christians the followers of Christ :as: believe he was god and son of god etc.. Yet nowhere is there evidence from Christ :as: own words.

Fact: The promised Messiah :as: was also asked to “repent” by many opponents and in response continued to write articles, publications and still held public meetings till his last days.

Fact: Alexandra Dowie in his 50s publicly accepted the challenge of the Promised Messiah :as: in his 70s and yet Died.

Fact: These prophecies conclusions you mock were not the works of the Promised Messiah but the works of Allah Almighty. These prophesies do not prove the truth of the Promised Messiah:as: as much as the truth of the existence of a living Alah Almighty.


kind regards
aqeel
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Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby xiaahmad » 02 Sep 2010, 07:51

Fact: The promised Messiah: as: never spoke or understood English.

Fact: Someone else would have to translate the article in to English.

Fact: The person translating from Urdu to English must have translated whatever the Promised Mesiah said in Urdu to just one word “repent” as they understood it.

Fact: The claim of Simon Piggot was made very public before the challenge from his own words and declarations.

Fact: Your research is based on what his followers believed and NOT HIS OWN declaration after the challenge.

Fact: Christians the followers of Christ :as: believe he was god and son of god etc.. Yet nowhere is there evidence from Christ :as: own words.

Fact: The promised Messiah :as: was also asked to “repent” by many opponents and in response continued to write articles, publications and still held public meetings till his last days.

Fact: Alexandra Dowie in his 50s publicly accepted the challenge of the Promised Messiah :as: in his 70s and yet Died.

Fact: These prophecies conclusions you mock were not the works of the Promised Messiah but the works of Allah Almighty. These prophesies do not prove the truth of the Promised Messiah:as: as much as the truth of the existence of a living Alah Almighty.


He didnt know english then he also didnt know the English in case of dowie as well but dont u ppl give us the clippings of statements of Mirza ghulam published in newspapers of USA? Why double standards?

You said person translating it as "Repent" wrongly its not a FACT its your Assumption

Mirza Ghulam had people who could read and write english perfectly so u assuming that in such a matter where a challenge is given they translated it without care is nothing but assumption to save Mirza ghulam failed prophecy.

now pigot cant understand urdu so it is common sense that letter to him will be in english

now ur saying Pigott dont even claimed to be Jesus christ even? come on man stop assuming things
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: "Indeed, messengership and Prophethood have terminated. So, there is no Messenger after me and no Prophet”.
(Jami' Tirmidhi, hadith 2272
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Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby xiaahmad » 02 Sep 2010, 07:53

So aqeel ur whole argument is based upon assumptions.

U assume: That Mirza ghulam had no one to translate in correct english
U assume: That some one did the wrong translation
U assume: That pigott didnt even make the claims and statement.

and you have nothing to back your assumptions with
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said: "Indeed, messengership and Prophethood have terminated. So, there is no Messenger after me and no Prophet”.
(Jami' Tirmidhi, hadith 2272
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Joined: 15 Jan 2009, 18:08

Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby aqeel » 02 Sep 2010, 10:13

bismilah hirahmaan niraheem.

Once again thank you for reading my reply.

My humble request to Mr. xiaahmad is to look up the meaning of 'assume' and 'fact'.
The problem I face is that I am not sure if you guys are deliberately not understanding my English or genuinely. I can not see how I can put it any more simply than what I already have.

U assume: That Mirza ghulam had no one to translate in correct english
.

NO this is an assumption you have made and therefore are putting words into my mouth. what I have said is a matter of fact and there is no way you can disprove it. Once again ill repeat it.

Fact: Someone else would have to translate the article in to English.

Fact: The person translating from Urdu to English must have translated whatever the Promised Mesiah said in Urdu to just one word “repent” as they understood it.

Can you point out where I have said there was no one able to translate in to english or that they were wrong?

U assume: That pigott didnt even make the claims and statement.


Again you have assumed this and again put words into my mouth. Its a fact that after the challenge of HMG (as), there is no public declaration of Mr. Piggot's claim from his own words. All the references provided are from his followers which can not be considered as evidence. I have also referenced Christianity to illustrate my point.

Kind regards
Aqeel
Waslaam
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Re: John Hugh Smyth-Pigott

Postby Hussain » 02 Sep 2010, 16:08

Mr. Hussain and MR. Predator. I am really sorry that a fact is a fact regardless of who says it.


No Aqeel, you need to learn the definition of what the word fact actually means.

Fact: The person translating from Urdu to English must have translated whatever the Promised Mesiah said in Urdu to just one word “repent” as they understood it.


That is not a fact. How can you not see that? I mean seriously... This is all based in your head. In addition to this, you're forming your whole argument on this one assumption. "Whatever the Promised Messiah said", well what did he say? You have no idea except for the letter he sent which your own organisation authenticates and validates. They do not at any point say there is a mistake in the translation, yet somehow, you have come by this knowledge which if you were not present at the time, can only be divine in nature! Your whole argument is baseless, you severely lack basic logic if you cannot see this. Here is your khalifa talking about Piggot:

http://www.casttv.com/video/3abvxg1/haz ... gott-video

His Holiness the Promised Messiah (peace and blessings be upon him) wrote an advertisement in refutation of his claim and had it printed in the newspapers in England. One newspaper Sunday Circle also printed this advertisement on 14 February 1903 and before the publication of this advertisement this paper also appended the headline 'The Final Messiah: Hindustani Antagonist of Rev. Pigott.' Anyhow His Holiness the Promised Messiah (peace and blessings be upon him) had announced his destruction and annihilation, the very Pigott who was at his zenith in those days proved unable to withstand the opposition from the Christians and went around hiding in places. And the world witnessed that the true Ark of His Holiness the Promised Messiah (peace and blessings be upon him) came to prevail. (Concluding Address to Jalsa Salana 2008. 27 July 2008. Alton, Hampshire - United Kingdom).


Notice how he brags about having this 'prophecy' printed in the newspapers. I have used the same newspaper that is on your official website bragging about Dowie. Now at which point while bragging about the publication does he say the translation is incorrect? Either debate using actual FACTS or stop wasting our time.

Fact: The claim of Simon Piggot was made very public before the challenge from his own words and declarations.


Who is this Simon? Anyway, this also is not a fact because you still haven't produced this so called 'challenge' you keep referring to. What is a FACT is that in 1909 after your 'prophet' died, Pigott boasted, "I am God".

Fact: Your research is based on what his followers believed and NOT HIS OWN declaration after the challenge.


This is not a fact. I mean seriously, do you even know what the word fact means? I don't even know what your point is with this particular so called 'fact'. And again with this 'challenge', what challenge? Have you even read the article? There is a book on your website called 'Approaching the West' written by Mubasher Ahmad. Please go and read page sixteen of the book (that means page sixteen on the top right hand corner of the actual book, not the PDF page number). Here you will find your official website book says and I quote "“...the Church of England took stern action against him, and he was defrocked and thus utterly humiliated. But Smyth-Pigott persisted in his arrogance and announced: ‘I am God. It does not matter what they do.’” Now following this simple task of reading, please enlighten us all and do some basic research and tell us when was Pigott defrocked? Once you have that answer, please remind us in addition to it what Mubasher Ahmad states in his book as per Pigotts response upon being defrocked. If you have the courage do carry this out, then insha'Allah you will put the jigsaw together. It really is quite simple but if layman's terms cannot help you get out of this fog, then may Allah (SWT) bless you.

Fact: Christians the followers of Christ :as: believe he was god and son of god etc.. Yet nowhere is there evidence from Christ :as: own words.

Fact: The promised Messiah :as: was also asked to “repent” by many opponents and in response continued to write articles, publications and still held public meetings till his last days.

Fact: Alexandra Dowie in his 50s publicly accepted the challenge of the Promised Messiah :as: in his 70s and yet Died.

Fact: These prophecies conclusions you mock were not the works of the Promised Messiah but the works of Allah Almighty. These prophesies do not prove the truth of the Promised Messiah:as: as much as the truth of the existence of a living Alah Almighty.


How are any of these relevant to the issue? Also, in future take care when spelling the name of the Almighty (SWT), it is not 'Alah', it is Allah (SWT).
"The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)
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