Exciting Changes

بسم الله الرحمان الرحيم

as-salaamu `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakaatuh

I’d like to share some exciting news with you. Quite a few people have come to Islam from Ahmadiyya in the last month. The numbers are growing by the week of people openly saying what they are doing. We are being told that the work we are doing is having an effect. Alhamdulillah! We take no credit for anything other than conveying the message. If Allah wills, all Ahmadis would come to Islam.

We’re also going to change the site. The existing forum will be ditched for another system. (The old system will still live on, just for reference). The blog, front page and forum will be much more integrated. There will be an FAQ section, profiles on writers and most importantly, a brand new name. Please note, none of the existing content will be lost, insha’Allah.

We recognise that the name “thecult.info” has not appealed to everyone. That we believe it is a cult and that many insiders do doesn’t mean that it needs to be pushed in the faces of those who might otherwise engage, but think the title too hostile. Whilst we have always used the title as a matter of fact and not of insult or hostility, that it is perceived as such is not helpful to dialogue.

My aim has always been to facilitate Ahmadis coming back to Islam, that view is shared by many other writers here. I feel that a more open Ahmadiyya organisation and a more friendly approach between Muslims and Ahmadis can only help. We are not there yet, but I’d like to move towards it. My Iqra interview was meant to emphasise that and the following week’s discussion was a great example of dialogue. We’d like that process to continue and we’d like to openly invite Ahmadis, as we have always done, to the new platform, where Muslims, Lahori Ahmadis and Qadiani Ahmadis can discuss important issues openly.

And peace unto those who follow the guidance.

References and History

Screen shot 2010-09-05 at 22.18.49.png

As the Ramadan of 2010 of the Common Era nears its end, I’d like to share with you for the first time, the email I sent to Dr. Rashid towards the end of Ramadan 2004, just before I left the cult of Ahmadiyya for good. I will not share his response out of respect for him, but it was beautiful, elegant, wise and inspired. I want to share it with those of you who are also thinking of leaving Ahmadiyya to let you know that I’ve been out of the cult for close to 6 years now and a day doesn’t go by that I don’t feel blessed for having done so. alhamdulillah, it was the best decision I ever made.

 

(Sent on the 22nd November 2004, giving only my first name)

Dear Doctor Sahib,

Assalamoalaikum.

My name is Shahid. (Witness, not Martyr!) I have been reading your
website, and also irshad.org. I also read the entire messageboard
against jamaat Ahmadiyya on the yahoo groups.

I was born into jamaat Ahmadiyya. I recall going to some religious
function with my father when he was still alive, perhaps some 25 years
ago when I was a boy. I was speaking to an uncle and at this point, I
had read the Holy Quran, and the English translation a number of
times. I said to him “But Hazrat Ahmad can’t be a prophet, as the Holy
Qur’an says that The Holy Prophet was the last of the prophets!”. He
took me aside and told me that my beliefs were wrong. He was quite
loving about it, but I still didn’t understand.

Now I’m a grown man of 38 and have spent the whole of Ramadan
researching. I am on the brink of leaving jamaat Ahmadiyya, but I want
to make sure that I don’t make a catastrophic error.

I’m not concerned about social network, friends, history, all of that.
I’m interested in truth.

Some of what has been written against the jamaat rings true, other
things look like gross exaggerations. However, one hears rumours of
things not quite going right in the community – and when one lie is
covered up, one wonders how many more there might be…

Anyway, I’m sure you’re a busy man. I have some questions for you as
you seem pretty vocal:

1) What is your motive behind the destruction of the jamaat?
Seriously? Why do you hate it so much? Please be open with me, I don’t
mind and am not interested in forwarding our correspondence to anyone
else – remember, that by engaging with you in the first place, I am
ignoring the decree of our “Khalifa” – the appointment of whom upset
me. I wanted to know why in this entire jamaat, only Hazrat Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad’s family are deemed worthy of appointment by some
quasi-divine-election process that mystifies me.

2) How do I know that the quotations you have used are valid? Or in
context? (I believe you when the argument is proved against the jamaat
in the context of the Finality of Prophethood and the way the original
authors on the subject are subverted, disingenuously, to the cause of
the jamaat, so I am only applying your own rigour to your own
arguments!) After all, I don’t read Urdu. I can download Roohani
whatever (which until you told me about, I had never been aware of!!!
Isn’t that odd??) – but I can’t read and translate to determine
veracity – and life is too short – I might die soon – if it be the
will of Allah – and I want to save my soul – if not my body – without
going mad studying.

3) What do I do if I leave the jamaat?

I must say again, that some of the arguments used against jamaat seem
dubious and a little cynical and perhaps even partially contrived, but
there are enough arguments against it that have brought me to the
brink of leaving.

Regardless, thank you for your site. It has, if nothing else, been an
education. And Ahmadis simply do not know enough about their own
“faith”. You are absolutely right. Most Ahmadi “believers” are rank
amateurs, which is dangerous when we are talking about the education
of the soul.

I hope you will have time for a little private email dialogue. If you
are on msn messenger, my handle is shahidisalig@hotmail.com

I would appreciate it if you would keep this correspondence confidential.

Wassalam,

Shahid

(n.b. I no longer use the above hotmail address. You can reach me at shahid at thecult dot info.)

And now I will give you a response, for you, the Ahmadi reader who knows that something is wrong, but you can’t quite put your finger on quite what it is and who doesn’t want to go mad studying a language you probably don’t understand.

Today, there are many places you can go for references. In your case, I would read the translations of the Ahmadiyya, which are available in the following locations:

http://www.alislam.org/books/

I would recommend Tadhkirah as a useful book to start with. However, you should note that the Ahmadiyya has changed this several times, and in recent years it has been changed twice in response to articles or videos made by contributors to this web site. You should ask yourself about the integrity of an organisation that adapts its theology without explanation in response to its former adherents who have woken up and smelt the coffee.

Another collection worth checking is The Essence of Islam.

And finally, a collection of official Ahmadiyya booklets I found and br. AhmedC preserved for posterity are well worth looking at. More details can be found in the article “The Lost English Books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani

I’d also recommend that you take the juicier extracts and ask someone who understands Urdu to read them for you. They’re usually spot on. I would also thoroughly recommend the following website:

Ahmadi Beliefs

There is an open challenge by the compiler to disprove or refute any of the translations. If mistakes are found, they will be corrected.

You should finally ask yourself, who benefits? Do you want to continue to be mollified by the hasbara of the Ahmadiyya? Or do you want the truth? I certainly won’t be asking you for chanda, or even thanks. On the contrary, I offer my support. I seek only the Pleasure of Allah (SWT). Anyone who has dealt with me, including Qadiani spies, know this to be true. I have been blessed enough to see former Ahmadi friends become Muslim. They all know they made the right choice.

I want you to know something. I know how you feel. I have been through this, many others have. It is not easy, but it is right.

What you find beautiful in Ahmadiyya is Islam. What you find distasteful is the dust on your cloak. Shake the dust of Mirzology off. Islam is your birthright. Reclaim it.

The Effective Approach

بسم الله الحمد لله و صلاة و سلام على رسول الله و على آله و سلم تسليمٌ كثيرٌ

When I initially began my Da’wah efforts to the Ahmadis, I was under the impression that evidence and reasoned logic were sufficient to convince anyone of the truth. But, throughout my discussions with many ex-Ahmadis who embraced Islam, I realized that while the evidence was certainly a part of their conversion experience, the biggest factor was visiting a thriving Muslim community and seeing the reality of our general community, leadership and scholars.

Does Reason Work?
In the past, I have shown many arguments on the failures of Ahmadiyya and the superiority of Islam. Open-minded Ahmadis have told me the arguments have made them question. But, not-so-open-minded Ahmadis will posit a response no matter how ludicrous it is. For example, with the help of Brother Shahid, we demonstrated clear-cut grammatical errors in Mirza Ghulam’s alleged English revelations. When unable to find a technicality to justify his clearly grammatically incorrect English, defenders of Ahmadiyya resorted to:

Is perfect grammar a REQUIREMENT of truthfulness? 🙂 And no matter how hard you try, you can never break this argument! 🙂
-SultanulQalam Canada

This is not a response, this is an acknowledgement of error. (And it goes against this verse) Had we observed faulty English in the likes of Baha’iullah, no Ahmadi defender would have objected to rejecting him. But, because the claimant happens to be Mirza Ghulam, the close-minded will employ Sophistry and give any possible response to vindicate a clearly erroneous position.

So does reason work? Yes, many are convinced by the reason and logic that Islam offers over Ahmadiyya. This has proven to be fruitful for many. But, I also defer to what Imam al-Ghazali wrote in his Deliverance from Error:

Anyone who believes that the unveiling of truth is the fruit of well-ordered arguments belittles the immensity of divine mercy.

The Effective Approach
Ahmadis are told that the Muslims are astray, without any leadership, utterly divided into countless sects, led by “jahil mullahs” and essentially inviable.

But, when they actually visit a masjid, a different picture sinks in. As Farhan Qureshi says in the video about his conversation, he expected to see “bearded mullah terrorists”, but instead was amazed at the thriving community he witnessed. Another convert to Islam from Ahmadiyya told me when he visited the Muslims in Ramadan, the connection to Allah that he experienced was far superior to anything he saw in Ahmadiyya.

There are countless other stories on the same pattern. Ahmadis convert to Islam when they see our communities. They question, “if the Muslims are not as bad as we are taught, in fact quite the opposite, what then was the purpose of the Ahmadiyya community to begin with”?

Do reason and logic have a role? Most certainly yes! But, from my perspective it does not seem to be the dominant reason. Islam is not a religion that is conveyed from books and well-formed arguments. Even the Qur’an required the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم to explain it and guide with it. Islam is conveyed from Heart to Heart.

Thus, a better approach might be to show the Ahmadis our community. To invite them to our masjids. To send them our literature that has nothing to do with Ahmadiyya (which is pretty much all of it anyways). To genuinely befriend them, offer them help when needed, treated well, and be their personal invitation into Muslim community. And, if the only access we have to them is through an internet medium, have them listen to our Sheyookh over YouTube.

Based on my experience, this seems to be a very effective approach. As in all things, there are two main difficulties ahead:
A) Are we able to humble ourselves and be patient enough to slowly wean Ahmadis towards Islam? Or are our intentions so corrupt that we only seek to argue, insult and ridicule, thus further driving them away from the Truth? This means no more negative comments directed at them. Even those comments that expose their faults must be done so with kindness and humility.
B) Violence and persecution against them. Those who attacked their centers in Pakistan did nothing but commit one of the worst sins: murder of innocent life. And, they helped instill a siege mentality whereby ordinary Ahmadis are emotionally attached to the religion even if they recognize it as a misguidance.

In our dealings with Ahmadis, let us not follow the Sunnah of Mirza Ghulam, who resorted to cursing and insults. Let us follow the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم who guided the most wretched kufaar to the greatest religion.

May Allah continue to guide the Ahmadis to Islam.

و صلى الله عليه و على آله و سلم تسليمٌ

Notice to commenters

To commenters, can I please draw your attention to the rules.

To Mirzai commenters, please refrain from hasbara and the same tired and rebutted canards. Life is short. We know you plan on keeping us engaged in useless debate so that we take our eye off the ball, but we simply won’t allow that here. If you want examples of good Mirzai commenters, look at the shorter comments of khalid nawaz and most of the comments by Lutf. The administrators will delete any rule that contains hasbara or the same tired canards. We keep a record of all comments deleted, so if you ever want to pull us up on this, you will be wasting your time.

And to all commenters, please keep the tone civil. Don’t be abusive to one another. Many thanks for helping to keep this blog a clean environment for discussion of the Ahmadiyya cult.

Publicly Debating the Missionary, Reflections after a Year

Bismillah, alhumdu lillah, wa Salaatu wa salaam ‘ala rasool Allah

A little more than a year ago, I engaged in an internet debate with one of the leading students in Jamia Ahmadiyya, the Ahmadi missionary school located in Canada. What started as a single video released on YouTube sparked a long series of video debates against Ahmadi theology in favor of traditional Islamic belief. The video debate culminated when he released a 21-part series in defense of Ahmadiyya, upon which we (Orthodox and I) replied with a 19-part series in defense of Islam. In the end, the missionary was ordered by his community to remove his videos.

That much you might already know. Here’s what you don’t know…

How did it start?

Months prior to my first video, I took a introductory course on ‘Ulūm al-Qur’ān (“Sciences” of the Qur’an) and had subsequently read Shaykh Yasir Qadhi’s An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur’aan and Ahmad von Deffner’s ‘Ulūm al-Qur’ān. (Here’s another book on this subject, but I haven’t read it.) This introduced me to a subject I still have very cursory knowledge on: the different recitation styles of the Qur’ān. This is the knowledge of the various ways that the Qur’an can be recited, consisting of slightly different words, accent marks, pronunciation styles, tajweed rules, shades of meanings, etc. The variant readings of the Qur’an are all legitimate, as they all originated from the Prophet Muhammad, prayers and peace be upon him.

In particular, Shaykh Yasir in his book specifically cites that 9 of the recitation styles of the Qur’an use the words Khātim al-Nabiyyin [notice the kasra on the ta’] meaning ‘last of the prophets’, whereas only 1 authentic recitation says Khātam al-Nabiyyin [notice the fat’ha on the ta’]. While they can convince their followers that khātam does not mean ‘last’, khātim unambiguously means ‘last’, even according to Mirza Bashir-ud-Deen Ahmad, in his book Invitation to Ahmadiyyat. This was the fuel I needed, an argument they had never seen before!

What happened?

I released an initial video talking about how variant readings of the Qur’ān say khātim, and how it means ‘last’. The reception was overwhelming. I had no idea there were so many Ahmadis on YouTube!

While my video was exclusively about the finality of prophethood, I received many many comments demanding that I prove that ‘Esa bin Maryam, peace be upon him, is still alive. At this time, I was confused as to why they were changing the topic to something I did not even argue for or against in my video.

Then came the ‘Mullah’ comments- and they were relentless. Comments along the lines of “you are just a mullah”, or “you learned all this from the mullahs” or that I was a “jahil mullah”. It seemed as if every 3rd word was “mullah”. That was difficult to deal with because I definitely don’t have thick skin. On occasion, I’d ask “So, which of my teachers in particular are you referring to that is jahil mullah.” The answer would always be someone from Pakistan that I had never heard of.

Finally were Ayyaz’s videos. (You might notice that I referred to him as Mahmood. That is because I initially did not want to say his actual name over YouTube. But then when he himself said his first name, I felt that it was okay. Remember, its not personal!!) Ayyaz is a student at the Ahmadi missionary school, and thus had some credibility in their faith. He presented the first real response to my initial video and follow up questions. I was taken back by his confidence and arguments. Some of his initial arguments even stumped me. I responded back, but my initial responses were poor and he made short-work of them. I figured that was the end of it.

Then one night, ex-Ahmadi-turned-Muslim Farhan Qureshi (Orthodox) called me. He asked me if I would continue with my videos and even offered to help me. I initially declined, but seeing his desire for me to continue, I agreed to continue with his help. It was now a tag-team.

We met a local masjid (coincidently, very close to an Ahmadi center) and made our video response. The Ahmadi missionary responded. We volleyed back. After another round, he took a long break. I thought that was the end of it. No, he released a 21-part video series, roughly two and a half hours of solid video footage of him defending the Ahmadi positions. I initially had no desire whatsoever to watch all 21-parts to produce a time consuming response. But after talking to Orthodox, some friends, and some personal reflection, I decided it was time to reply to the Ahmadi missionary. With months of research and fact-finding, we released our own 19-part refutation of his video series.

That was the end of the saga. He never replied…

My Research

What most people do not know is the amount of research that went into my 19-part response (and book). This was not simply a cut-and-paste exercise from various websites. I physically traveled to multiple libraries, including Georgetown University, George Washington University, Library of Congress, Qortoba Institute’s library and many other books I purchased. I read books, took notes, found logical and factual inconsistencies, and compiled all of my findings in a single coherent form.

For example, it took at least 3 months to track down obscure dictionaries that the Malik Ghulam Farid cited in his Ahmadi-specific dictionary of Arabic. I found that not a single dictionary he cited supported his translation of the word khātam as “best” or “most perfect”- not one! And I challenge any Ahmadi to prove me wrong, as I still have the scanned pages from those dictionaries. In fact, they all supported the Islamic understanding.

I found that all of those whom the Ahmadis believe are Mujaddideen explicitly held positions against the continuation of prophethood. It was tedious and difficult to track down all of these books, find the appropriate section, have them professionally translated and perform an analysis. But it was worth it.

My Thoughts on the Missionary’s Videos

Ayyaz’s videos were meant to defend the Ahmadi belief in the continuation of prophets. Therefore, he responded with a plethora of arguments, many of which I had never heard before. I found it frustrating that he very briefly responded to my main argument and instead jumped to side issues that I did not even bring up. My initial argument was briefly responded to in three highly inconsistent ways:

  1. The alternate Qira’āt are just “mispronunciations”, and the “actual” word is khātam – This response is factually incorrect, but I suspect it resonated with most Ahmadis.
  2. The alternate Qira’āt are not legitimate at all, and if anyone even suggested they are legitimate, the rest of the Muslim world would “spit on his face” (his exact words) – Yes, a reversal of the earlier response
  3. Because Imam ‘Ali, peace be upon him, taught the Qira’ with the word khātam, this means khātim is incorrect – This is the argument of Maulvi Adam Walker, an Ahmadi leader, but does not negate my argument, as I acknowledged that both khātam and khātim are both correct.

The rest of his content was arguments that I did not even bring up. For example, I never once argued that Ibrahim, the son of the Prophet, prayers and peace be upon him, died because Allah “made a mistake” and allowed him to be born. But, I found myself being forced to cite this hadith. I never once talked about the argument from Surah al-Nisa’, but after he brought it up, I had to respond.

In one video, he asked me to prove why I believe ‘Esa bin Maryam, peace be upon him, was still alive. I understand that this is their main pillar of faith, but frankly, I never once argued that he lived or died. It is as if they think this one belief will legitimize the entire faith. I simply ignored it. I chose the finality of prophethood as the battle-ground and intended to stick to it.

While our videos were academic in nature, his videos were tinted with emotionalism and the “come on, you know we’re right” attitude. I sensed frustration in his voice and his comments definitely reflected anger. (Read his comments to see what I mean.) Thankfully, this is absent in the current two main Ahmadi defenders who are by far more rational and logical.

Why did he remove his videos?

If you check Ayya’z channel, you will see that all of his debate videos were taken down. Why? In a brief e-mail exchange, he informed me that while he felt that he could have responded to my videos, Mirza Masroor Ahmad, their self-declared ‘khalifah’, issued a circular to Ahmadis to remove all videos so that they could regulate the flow of content about Ahmadiyya.

I tip my hat to Ayyaz for having the humility to obey his leaders. I don’t know if I would be able to do that. But I find it pathetic that the ‘khalifah’ would regulate the free exchange of debate. They are forbidden from publicly debating, which makes it difficult to openly challenge them.

I also found it comical that his videos proceeded with a disclaimer that these are not the official views of Ahmadiyya, as if that makes any bit of difference. It is simply their way to limit liability and distance themselves in the event that they lose. It reminds me of the root-meaning of the نفق (nafaqa), which refers to the alternate hole desert-snakes make in the sand to have another way out if attacked. In the minds of most Ahmadis, that two-second disclaimer might as well not have been there.

What I would have done differently?

Are there things I wish I could change? Most certainly!

While my main point was entirely valid and never refuted, it was too technical for the average Ahmadi (or even the average Muslim) to understand. The study of the Qira’āt is a very specialized area of Islamic studies, reserved for serious students of Islamic knowledge. While Muslims should have at least a basic understanding, its not something taught in your Saturday school masjid class. Thus, this argument probably went over the heads of most people.

Having said that, I really wish there was a way I could have prevented Ayyaz from bringing up unrelated arguments. I don’t know why he did that. My series started with 1 and only 1 argument, yet he chose to bring out every argument for the continuation he had. This forced me to refute all of them (and we did), but it took away from the overall presentation of the main argument.

My language could have used some work. I meant to be genuinely polite, but had some problems. For example, I started my videos with “as-salaam ‘alaykum to all of the Muslims and warm and respectful greetings to the Ahmadis”. That’s probably a technically legitimate introduction, but it lacked wisdom as it came off as condescending. I have since changed it.

Oh…and at times, our presentation could have used some work.

Conclusions

Perhaps the biggest conclusion was that it showed that Muslims will not simply back-down when Ahmadis present their arguments. I suspect that Ayyaz did not anticipate my continued responses to his videos. In private chat, he would try to silence me by insisting there was no response to his arguments and would not want to hear my responses.

YouTube’s insight tracker showed that those videos were highly watched in Ahmadi hotspots, including the the Greater Toronto Area, London, Karachi, Islamabad, Maryland, Chicago and even Germany! I certainly didn’t spawn a revolution, but I did make its splash. I started receiving e-mails, either in praise or opposition. I heard stories of Ahmadis questioning the Murabbis, demanding decent answers to my arguments. I received many emails of people who had become Muslims, such as this one. I even heard of one Ahmadi who became an atheist!

It also awakened the YouTube SultanulQalam team, which specifically addresses my popular videos.

Going forward in my Da’wah campaign, I plan on making my videos simpler and less technical. My position about debate has become that of Imam al-Ghazali in his Deliverance from Error who said “Anyone who thinks that the unveiling of truth is through rational arguments underestimates the immensity of the divine favor”. Thus, my new videos are only intended to get Ahmadis to think, rather than arguments. Most Ahmadis are stunningly ignorant of Muslim communities, stereotyping Muslim scholars as all ‘jahil mullahs’ and the masses as astray. I plan on showing them that this is not at all the case.

May Allah continue to guide Ahmadis from Ahmadiyya to Islam, increase me in knowledge, and free Masjid al-Aqsa.

wa sallahu ‘ala saydina Muhammad wa ‘ala alihi wa sahbihi wa sallam

Twists of the Texts

بسم الله و صلاة عليه

When the Muslims were building the first masjid in Madinah, Masjid al-Nabawi, everyone was carrying a single brick upon his shoulder for construction, but, Ammar ibn Yusuf was carrying two bricks. Upon seeing him, the Prophet (Prayers and peace be upon him) said “Rejoice Ammar! The transgressing side will kill you!” Later in his life, he was told that the last meal he would have would be a bowl of milk.

Now fast-forward roughly 40 years. Its the battle of Siffin between the forces of ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib and Mu’awiya ibn Sufiyan (May God be pleased with them both). A Civil War amongst the sahaba. There’s confusion. Who is upon the Truth? Who is Right?

By this point, everyone came to know about the prophetic traditions regarding ‘Ammar. The transgressing party will kill him. Throughout the battle, the forces of Mu’awiya avoid fighting him, while the forces of ‘Ali stayed close to him. The battle raged, but no one wanted to fight ‘Ammar.

Then, during one of the periods of rest in the battle, ‘Ammar is delivered a bowl of milk. He smiled. Just as the Prophet told him. Death is soon. He returns to the battle to find a soldier of Mu’awiya. The soldier cuts down the aged sahabi, and finishes him off. So shocked is everyone that the battle stops and the sides regroup.

That night, some of the soldiers of ‘Ali went to the camp of Mu’awiya to hear what they were saying about this incident. One remarked “We are the transgressing party, we killed ‘Ammar!” Everyone was worried.

Then, Mu’awiya responds saying “The murderers of Mu’awiya were the ones who took him out to the battlefield to begin with”, meaning ‘Ali’s army. At that, everyone spontaneously agreed that the real killer of ‘Ammar was ‘Ali, because ‘Ali was the one who armed him, provided for him, and had him fight. He twisted the narration.

The soldiers of ‘Ali did not know what was stranger. The twisting of the hadith, or the fact that everyone believed it!

What does this story demonstrate? It shows that anyone can make an excuse, an argument, a response, a rebuttal to any problematic ayah or hadith. All you have to do is twist the text to change the meaning. It’s not hard. And this is precisely what Ahmadi apologetics do. Its the only way you can make half a dozen variants of “There is absolutely no prophet after Muhammad, none whatsoever” allow for Mirza Ghulam. They’re all twists and distortions.

To each Ahmadi I say, had you been a neutral observer, you would have admitted how absurd their distortions are. I ask you to question what the Ahmadi leaders argue and to accept the clear guidance of Islam!

Dr Zahid Aziz of Lahori Jamaat

This is an interesting debate between the Lahore Mirzai wisdom guru Zahid Aziz and brother ahmadibeliefs. I guess ahmadibeliefs was a little harsh, however, his approach is very scientific and very logical. Zahid Aziz was clean bowled repeatedly and at the end he simply ran away. What I learned here is a different technique to tackle Mirzais which seems extremely effective. Do not put an objection on Mirza’s writing, just ask them about the authenticity and validity of his obscure beliefs?

We can see here that Zahid Aziz was compelled to confess that Mirza was a shame for humanity. He tried to avoid the second confession that as per Mirzai religion copulation and worship are inseparable and finally he was compelled to close the blog.

The discussion is little longer and needs your patience, but I found it to be very interesting as well as informative.

Interestingly the blog is still available at the Lahori site:
http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2009/11/10/discussion-between-ex-qadiani-akbar-ahmad-chaudhry-and-qadiani-anwar-mirza-on-iqra-tv/#comment-3294

________________________________________
• December 3rd, 2009 at 4:31 am
From ahmadibeliefs:

I wish this Iqra TV program invites Dr. Zahid Aziz to get Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement point of view.

Please visit the website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com to check out beliefs of both sects of ahmadiyya in the light of actual writings of Mirza Sb.
________________________________________
• December 3rd, 2009 at 10:57 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:

It is obvious some opponent of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib has created the website “ahmadibeliefs”. Although the quotes, (although I have not checked their wordings against HMGA books) are from HMGA books (BTW some of them may Not be from his books) but they are out of context. The author of “ahmadibeliefs” website is NOT different than Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders. Both have the similar approach i.e. to take quotes out of context and absolutely distort the message and create wrong impression, and still be able to claim this is what Holy Quran or HMGA books say.

On the other hand if you honestly seek to understand these quotes, then we can help you. But before we do that, you pick-up one quote at a time, and first tell us your understanding of that quote by reading few pages preceding and proceeding those quotes. This will save your and our time. This will also show readers your willingness and honesty in understanding the quotes and learning. Thanks.

________________________________________
• December 10th, 2009 at 8:35 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
Sure,
Let us start with the 3rd quote on http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/moralvalues.
My understanding is same as per the website translation:
I am neither an earth-worm nor a human being.
I am the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity.
(Braheen Ahmadiyya – Vol 5 127; Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 21, Page 127)

Please correct the translation in the light of context.
________________________________________
• December 10th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
Anyone who reads the other verses of this beautiful and touching poem on that same page of the original book, will easily understand the meaning of these verses. See image of page here.
In the translation of the first verse quoted here, two words have been omitted, namely: “my Beloved”. If you know who he is addressing, the meaning behind these words is obvious.
Of course, those people will not be able to appreciate these verses who feel no need to express any humility and self-effacement before God because they are ruled by their own arrogance.
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• December 11th, 2009 at 2:39 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:

In every language of world, to produce quality literature writers and poets pen extreme forms of exaggeration. It could either be to show humility or grandiosity. Authors of Sufi (mysticism) literature, especially poets extensively use such figurative speeches. Bible tells us even Jesus (Hazrat Isa AS) also made use of such expressions. In the same poem a few verses after your quote, on the same page that Dr. Zahid Aziz has scanned, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib shows extreme grandiosity when he writes: You (Allah SWT) created Heaven, Moon and Sun for me (HMGA).

Brother/ Sister Ahmadibelief, this poem is basically addressed to Sufis (mystics). If you read and think with a mind of a Sufi, you will be able to appreciate and enjoy it. (BTW: Sufis were also one of the target audiences of HMGA).
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• December 11th, 2009 at 6:24 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
So you mean to say the correct translation is:

My Beloved! I am neither an earth-worm nor a human being.
I am the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity.
Please confirm.
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• December 11th, 2009 at 6:46 am
From Usman:
would “ahmadibeliefs” care to explain why the web site http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/moralvalues
leaves out the two words mentioned by Dr. ZA in the translation. And also as the addresee of the poem is quite obvious, why does the web site give the title “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility to humans”….when the humility being shown is to Allah. A mistake or a lie?
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• December 11th, 2009 at 8:57 am
From Zahid Aziz:
I can confirm that this is the translation. This would mean that you or your sources from whom you copied it omitted the words “my Beloved”. Could you please let us know the reason for this omission?
Moreover, do you agree with the following statements of the Quran:
The statement of prophet Yusuf in 12:53 translated variously as “I am not free of sin, man’s soul is prone to evil” or “Nor do I absolve myself of blame: the human soul is certainly prone to evil”.
The statement of prophet Yunus in 21:87 translated by most translators as “I have been a wrong-doer”. The word for wrong-doer here is zalim.
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• December 11th, 2009 at 10:05 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
What I understood from your answer is that the website made a mistake while translating. The website missed out the words “merey piyare”. This could be a valid issue and website should correct it. However, you said that quotes were out of context – so what was out of context here?
Moreover, the website made an error in the first line – but the second was accurate. Which I repeat:
ہوں بشر کی جاے نفرت اور انسانوں کی عار
I am the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity
So we can close this issue by agreeing to the fact that the website omitted the words, “my Beloved” and Mirza Sb was a shame for humanity.
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• December 11th, 2009 at 10:13 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
As per your valuable suggestion the website has been corrected. The error is removed and the message that Mirza Sb was most hated organ of the human body and a shame for humanity has been more clear now.
For the 2nd quote, please comment, what did you find out of context at the only quote available on the link:
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya
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• December 11th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
No, we certainly cannot close this issue by you just claiming to have corrected a “mistake”. You must make the whole page available on your website in order to show the context. You can upload the Urdu page immediately, and then you can gradually translate all the verses into English.
If you are right in your view of Hazrat Mirza sahib, then surely it is to your advantage to quote as much from him as possible! The more you quote, the more you will prove him to be wrong!
Also, you have not answered the points I raised from the Quran about what various prophets said. Is it perhaps because you are actually a Christian and not a Muslim? I can see that you have supported a certain Christian concept which is rejected by all Muslims. If you are a Christian, I cannot quote the Quran to you as an authority that you accept.
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• December 12th, 2009 at 12:17 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:

On your corrected website page you wrote:
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/moralvalues
“Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility” [of course you did not make it clear that this maximum possible humility shown by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib is towards Allah SWT].

You have classified your misleading title as “Moral Values” of HMGA and his follower Ahmadis. I fail to understand how you classify statement of Maximum Possible Humility as “Moral Value”. Please explain?
Please remember Allah SWT knows what is inside your heart and what you write. Thanks.
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• December 12th, 2009 at 6:10 am
From Usman:
@ahmadibeliefs
The context is (from reading the full poem)that HMGA is showing humility to Allah. Quite clearly before the website was making a “mistake” by mistranslating as well as giving it a misleading title. If the website is honest it should, as suggested by Dr. ZA, translate and upload the full poem to fully establish context and also make it clear in the title that “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility to Allah”.
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• December 12th, 2009 at 6:46 am
From Zahid Aziz:
Those words can also be referring to the widespread hatred against Hazrat Mirza sahib by people, and people being ashamed to be associated with him.
Is he not the figure most hated by large sections of the Muslim community? Are not people so ashamed of being linked with him that many of them conceal any connection with him and many of them issue announcements saying that they and their fathers had no connection with him?
Since our opponent drew our attention to this poem, I have been reading through it and have found it so deeply inspiring and moving that I recommend everyone to read it. It should be translated into English as well.
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• December 12th, 2009 at 7:27 am
From Usman:
@Rashid and ahmadibeliefs
Actually the the whole website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com seems to be an attempt (a rather poor one though) to mislead the casual reader into understanding that this is some sort of an Ahmadi site as opposed to an anti- Ahmadi site that is actually is. This is evident from the site address, its title (”Anjuman for Propagation of Ahmadiyya Beliefs – Germany”) as well the use of a motto on every page usually associated with the Rabwah Jammat. Is this all a “mistake” as well? I think we can discuss this later, first ahmadibelief needs to clarify and correct the “mistake” made in the quote regarding humility and answer Dr. ZA’s question that if ahmadibelief is a believer in Quran as the true word of God?
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• December 12th, 2009 at 8:32 am
From Rashid:
In the poem HMGA is thanking Allah for his favor bestowed to him. Despite given all the odds, and lack of his worldly resources, every accusation and hurdle, including malicious court cases, created by his opponents turned out in his favor. Even a plague that was considered curse and killed many turned out as a proof of his truthfulness. Unlike first 4 volumes of Barahin-I-Ahmadiyya, which were his initial books, volume 5 was published many years later, and in his poem HMGA mentioned events that took place in intervening period.
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• December 12th, 2009 at 10:03 am
From ahmadibeliefs:

You must make the whole page available on your website in order to show the context.

Dear Brother,
You are welcome to make a website and translate the whole poem made available on it. You put an allegation that the translation was out of context. It is clear it was not out of context rather there was a mistranslation which is corrected.

I fail to understand how you classify statement of Maximum Possible Humility as “Moral Value”

Dear Rashid,
Being humble is one of the noble moral values. If you fail to understand please ask someone to explain to you.

So please explain for the second quote now:
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya

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• December 12th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
“Out of context” means that the context is not provided. The context is what comes before and after. When anti-Islamic propagandists quote from the Quran “kill them wherever you find them”, the translation is perfectly correct. So do you think they are right in quoting it and giving it their own meaning? Please do answer this.
Regarding your second quote, you have stated on your webpage that you accept the Christian concept that the act of sex between husband and wife is “filthy”. No Muslim accepts that concept. Therefore your “loveforall” page is an attack upon Islam and all Muslims. Please clarify that you are against Hazrat Mirza sahib because you are against Islam while he defended Islam.
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• December 12th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:
Your quote:
“Dear Rashid,
Being humble is one of the noble moral values. If you fail to understand please ask someone to explain to you.”

Then please explain to me why you consider HMGA’s statement of extreme humbleness, proving his humility to Allah is a NEGATIVE character value?
Thanks.

@Dr. Zahid Aziz:
“When anti-Islamic propagandists quote from the Quran “kill them wherever you find them”, the translation is perfectly correct. So do you think they are right in quoting it and giving it their own meaning?”

The author of “ahmadibeliefs” website is NOT different than the Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders. Both have the similar approach i.e. to take quotes out of context and absolutely distort the message and create wrong impression, and still are able to claim this is what Holy Quran or HMGA books say.

I think, with his approach “ahmadibeliefs” is giving his/her SUPPORT to efforts of Geert Wilders.
Looking at point you brought up (“Therefore your “loveforall” page is an attack upon Islam and all Muslims. Please clarify that you are against Hazrat Mirza sahib because you are against Islam while he defended Islam”), I hope Muslim opponents of HMGA realize that “ahmadibeliefs” who pretends to be among their ranks has much higher sinister designs.
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• December 13th, 2009 at 8:55 am
From Usman:
ahmadibelief: I don’t see how it is clear the quote was in context. I think quite clearly it was out of context with a distorted meaning. Please remember you put the allegation first that this quote has some thing do with moral values. To establish this allegation you must provide context (Dr. ZA has explained what providing context means). After you have provided context we can see if your allegation holds wieght or not. Until then, this issue is not closed.
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• December 13th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
From ahmadibeliefs:
Dear Zahid,

“Out of context” means that the context is not provided.

This is one of the most illogical arguments one could expect from you. By this logic, you can quote any excerpt – if you want to quote something of Mirza Sb – publish the whole book and ask people to read the whole book. We both agree that Mirza Sb was most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity. We also agree this is a show of extreme humility. I am unsure, what is your objection.

Regarding your second quote, you have stated on your webpage that you accept the Christian concept that the act of sex between husband and wife is “filthy”.

I have never said that I accept the Christain concept, please don’t tell lies.

Now please advise what is out of context on the quote:

http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya

Dear Rashid,

Then please explain to me why you consider HMGA’s statement of extreme humbleness, proving his humility to Allah is a NEGATIVE character value?

Please refer from the website address under discussion where I said it is a negative character value. I say it one of the noble moral values that Mirza Sb claim he is not a human being not even an earth worm. Rather he is the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity. This is what you also agree is the translation. Where is the problem?
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• December 13th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:

Homepage of your website “ahmadibeliefs” says: “Anjuman for Propagation of Ahmadiyya Beliefs – Germany”.

In reply to Dr. Zahid Aziz suggestion you wrote:
“You are welcome to make a website and translate the whole poem made available on it. You put an allegation that the translation was out of context.”
Doesn’t it behoove you to propagate the correct Ahmadi Beliefs, and not to mislead?
And if in opinion of real Ahmadis your website is creating misunderstanding by posting quotes out of context, then are you not required to rectify it?
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• December 13th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
So your view is: (1) Hazrat Mirza sahib showed “extreme humility”, and (2) “Being humble is one of the noble moral values”.
Why don’t you place this conclusion in these words on your webpage? Presumably this is a noble quality you would be looking for in a truthful person.
I never stated that if you quote anything from Hazrat Mirza sahib you must publish the whole book. I said: the whole page, and I made it conveniently accessible to you. All you need to do is create a link to it (http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/barahin-v5-p127.pdf)
You never answered my point as to whether those anti-Islamic propagandists are right to quote the Quran as saying “kill them wherever you find them”. You seem highly reluctant to defend Islam.
You have replied: “I have never said that I accept the Christian concept, please don’t tell lies.”
On your “loveforall” page you have written:
“This is the status that Hazrat Sb has awarded to faith that an act of sex which is considered filthy by Christians has been upgraded to an extent that it becomes inseparable from love of God.”
That means you consider the Christian concept that sex is filthy even between husband and wife to be correct (that’s why they have celibacy). It is on the basis of that Christian belief that you are judging and criticising Hazrat Mirza sahib’s statement. Islamic teachings regard sex between husband and wife as an act of purity and require everyone to live in the state in which they can carry out this act. It is this act that Hazrat Mirza sahib clearly mentions.
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• December 14th, 2009 at 4:44 am
From ahmadibeliefs:

And if in opinion of real Ahmadis your website is creating misunderstanding by posting quotes out of context, then are you not required to rectify it?

Who is going to decide that you are true appreciator of Hazrat Sb or I am? How can you claim that you are a true Ahmadi so I should make my website according to your desires?

So your view is: (1) Hazrat Mirza sahib showed “extreme humility”, and (2) “Being humble is one of the noble moral values”.
Why don’t you place this conclusion in these words on your webpage?

This is exactly what is stated in the website. The title of the page says “MORAL VALUES” and the title of quotation says, “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility”. It clearly means that being humble is moral value and Hazrat Sb was so humble that he said I am not a human being and not even an earth worm, actually I am the most hated organ of the human body and a shame for humanity.

I never stated that if you quote anything from Hazrat Mirza sahib you must publish the whole book. I said: the whole page, and I made it conveniently accessible to you. All you need to do is create a link to it (http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/barahin-v5-p127.pdf)

It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context – the context can only be clarified if all the books are read in totality. As far as putting the link is concerned, if you had the eyes to read you would have read that I have clearly mentioned the page number and name of the book. Everyone knows these books are available on the official ahmadi website and can download and read. Why should I give reference to your one pager. It is better to give the reference of full book which I have given.

You never answered my point as to whether those anti-Islamic propagandists are right to quote the Quran as saying “kill them wherever you find them”.

My area of research is “True Ahmadi Beliefs based on writings of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani” and I was never posed a question by any non-Muslim about this ayah. However, just to make you happy, yes, I don’t think it is right to quote something from any place out of context and give your own meanings. In this case we both agree on the meaning that Mirza Sb was not even an earth worm and he was a shame for humanity.

That means you consider the Christian concept that sex is filthy even between husband and wife to be correct

I thought you are a PhD, but it nowhere looks like that. I would request you to open your eyes and then read. I have written: “This is the status that Hazrat Sb has awarded to faith that an act of sex which is considered filthy by Christians has been upgraded to an extent that it becomes inseparable from love of God.”
It simply means that Christians consider sex as a filthy act. Where did it says that I consider sex as a filthy act?
Now please stop these futile efforts to avoid the question and tell me what is wrong on the page,
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya

You guys said my website is wrong and out of context and you are there to help me to understand better. But instead of helping you are consistently beating about the bush.
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• December 14th, 2009 at 5:07 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:
Everyone can see through you that how eagerly you want to put on the side your first objection on HMGA based on quoting verse of his poem out of context. Now as your dishonesty is exposed you want to leave this objection, with out taking it to its logical conclusion i.e. by providing the complete page of poem; and your jumping to next objection. If we let you do this, you will repeat the same attitude. If you’re honest and have fear of Allah (provided you are a Muslim) then provide the complete page as demanded by Dr. ZA and then you can move to next objection. Remember, Allah knows everyone’s intentions (including yours) and you will be answerable to Him one day.
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• December 14th, 2009 at 5:44 am
From Usman:
@ahmadibelief you said “Please refer from the website address under discussion where I said it is a negative character value. I say it one of the noble moral values that Mirza Sb claim he is not a human being not even an earth worm. Rather he is the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity. This is what you also agree is the translation. Where is the problem?”
The translation is not the issue here any more. It is what the translation means and implies that is the issue. We feel the expression of humility shown by HMGA to Allah reflects positively on him. If you agree with this, then there is no problem. However if you have a problem with this particualr expression, then state it openly. Remember you put forward this quote to open the discussion, so obviously you have some problem with it; otherwise why bring it up. So instead of asking Rashid where the problem is; you should be stating the problem; failing which it will be logical to assume that you agree with us.
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• December 14th, 2009 at 7:14 am
From Zahid Aziz:
1. When we say that our religious leader possessed an excellent quality, it means that it becomes our goal to achieve the same quality as far as we can. Are you prepared to say that “the maximum possible humility” shown by Hazrat Mirza sahib is a goal you personally want to attain yourself and exhort others to attain it?
2. Since you are so keen to quote Hazrat Mirza sahib, what is hindering you from giving a link to the page that I mentioned, and telling your readers to read it for some further details.
3. So defending Islam against its critics, which Hazrat Mirza sahib did (including defending it against the “kill them wherever you find them” misrepresentation), is not a part of your research about his writings, while his writings are full of this defence! A critic of Islam will say the same as what you have said here: that “we both agree” that this command is in the Quran.
4. Why have you at all mentioned on your webpage the Christian doctrine about sex being filthy? It is not relevant to the quotation from Hazrat Mirza sahib that you are discussing. He is nowhere discussing Christianity in that section. You are clearly alleging that it is a filthy thing (sex between husband and wife) which Hazrat Mirza sahib has “elevated”. By using the word the “copulation” in your title, you indicate that sex between husband and wife is no better than any immoral act of copulation. Your belief is totally against what all Muslim believe.
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• December 14th, 2009 at 8:56 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:
Your: “Who is going to decide that you are true appreciator of Hazrat Sb or I am?”

Since you are posting on Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement website, and LAM members holds belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Century. So my question to you:
Are you willing to at least state that you hold belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Century?

Your: “How can you claim that you are a true Ahmadi so I should make my website according to your desires?”

What you will answer if Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders asks you: How can you claim that you are a true Muslim and follower of Holy Quran (assuming you a Muslim) so I should make my movie “Fitna” according to your desires?

Your: “It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context – the context can only be clarified if all the books are read in totality.”

What you will reply (assuming you are a Muslim who has utmost esteem for Holy Quran) if Geert Wilders says to you, “It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context (of verse: “kill them wherever you find them”) – the context can only be clarified if all of the Quran is read in totality”?

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• December 14th, 2009 at 9:21 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
Dear Usman,
I have collected the quotes of Mirza Sb to appreciate his true beliefs. I did not put this quote as an objection. If you may read up the post from Rashid; you will see that he put an objection on me:
“Although the quotes, (although I have not checked their wordings against HMGA books) are from HMGA books (BTW some of them may Not be from his books) but they are out of context.”
Further he offered me to select quotes and discuss:
“On the other hand if you honestly seek to understand these quotes, then we can help you. But before we do that, you pick-up one quote at a time, and first tell us your understanding of that quote by reading few pages preceding and proceeding those quotes.”
You guys offered to help and now you have all started to beat about the bush. Why should I put a reference to any link when I have given complete reference of book of Hazrat Sb.
It is just like I ask to you copy paste complete Quran on your website. You will ask anyone can check the Quran we have given a reference to the verse and sura. But I will say no, you seem to be dishonest so please copy paste whole of Quran on this website.
Then I will ask you copy paste 3 pages from Sahih Bukhari on your website and so on and on.
Please stop these stupid tactics and come to the point.
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• December 14th, 2009 at 9:29 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
Dear Zahid,
I would request you to be little logical. Every time you reply I am disappointed; I used to think that Lahoris are smarter than Qadianis.

1. When we say that our religious leader possessed an excellent quality, it means that it becomes our goal to achieve the same quality as far as we can. Are you prepared to say that “the maximum possible humility” shown by Hazrat Mirza sahib is a goal you personally want to attain yourself and exhort others to attain it?

I did not say Mirza Sb is my religious leader. I appreciate his work. He is your religious leader so you should repeat his wording that your are not even an earthworm and you are a shame for humanity.

2. Since you are so keen to quote Hazrat Mirza sahib, what is hindering you from giving a link to the page that I mentioned, and telling your readers to read it for some further details.

This is again a stupid request. I have given the reference already; anyone can go and read one page, two pages or whole book.

3. So defending Islam against its critics, which Hazrat Mirza sahib did (including defending it against the “kill them wherever you find them” misrepresentation), is not a part of your research about his writings, while his writings are full of this defence! A critic of Islam will say the same as what you have said here: that “we both agree” that this command is in the Quran.

If we get to a quote where there is defence of Islam, we will discuss it there. For the moment we are discussing copulation of Ahamdis.

4. Why have you at all mentioned on your webpage the Christian doctrine about sex being filthy? It is not relevant to the quotation from Hazrat Mirza sahib that you are discussing. He is nowhere discussing Christianity in that section. You are clearly alleging that it is a filthy thing (sex between husband and wife) which Hazrat Mirza sahib has “elevated”.

That was again pretty stupid. Here I am explaining to extremes; one Christians who consider a legitimate act of sex to be filthy and Hazrat Sb who gave this act of sex an exalted status. I cannot figure out where is the problem.

By using the word the “copulation” in your title, you indicate that sex between husband and wife is no better than any immoral act of copulation. Your belief is totally against what all Muslim believe.

How can the copulation between husband and wife be immoral. Maybe this is a Lahori concept I didn’t know. Please don’t put useless objections. My objection is why you used the word “belief” in this post. Why did not you use “faith”. Using the word “belief” means you are an enemy of Islam.
For God sake, use some sense.
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• December 14th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
From ahmadibeliefs:

Are you willing to at least state that you hold belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Century?

That was a totally irrelevant question. If I am posting at LAM site why is it necessary that I am a Lahori.

What you will answer if Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders asks you: How can you claim that you are a true Muslim and follower of Holy Quran (assuming you a Muslim) so I should make my movie “Fitna” according to your desires?

I have not asked that Dutch to make a movie according to my desires. When I feel his movie has incorrect message – I will clarify him what I believe in and explain his error. You guys have not informed my error and want me to change me my website because you are the patron of writings of Hazrat Sb. Extremely stupid.

What you will reply (assuming you are a Muslim who has utmost esteem for Holy Quran) if Geert Wilders says to you, “It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context (of verse: “kill them wherever you find them”) – the context can only be clarified if all of the Quran is read in totality”?

That was the most stupid. Yes, I will tell him that is correct answer. We should read Quran in totality and then understand the meaning.
Why would Geert Wilders ask me or you anything.
For God sake, don’t waste time in these stupid questions. My question to you if Mirza Masroor asks you that he is in love with Muhammad Ali Lahore, what will be your answer.
My question to you if I tell you to change your name to Abdul Samad – what will be your answer.
My question to you if Dr Zahid Aziz says he is vetrenary doctor, what will be your answer….
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• December 14th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
From usman:
Quote:
the context can only be clarified if all the books are read in totality
Unquote:
So you have then read all the books “in totality” of Hazrat sb. from which the website quotes? Because otherwise by your own admission all the quotes are out of context! Please clarify.
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• December 14th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
1. You praised humility in Hazrat Mirza sahib, and moreover you have created an impression that you are actually a follower of Hazrat Mirza sahib and a representative of Ahmadi beliefs. This is why I asked why you don’t make that quality of humility your goal.
Thanks for clarifying that he is not your religious leader. Please let us know which person of the past or present, if any, is your religious leader.
2. You say: “I have given the reference already; anyone can go and read one page, two pages or whole book.”
Would you then place the above statement on your website, saying that you encourage people to look up the reference, which may be found on such-and-such a website?
3. You don’t want to admit that the words “kill them wherever you find them” are being presented out of context by the opponents of Islam. This shows you are prepared to side with the opponents of Islam just out of spite for Hazrat Mirza sahib.
4. It is pointless to say that Hazrat Mirza sahib has gone to the opposite extreme to what Christianity teaches. Islam itself, on the topic of marriage and some other issues, teaches the opposite of Christianity. Assuming you are a Muslim, you should be concerned with whether he has gone to the opposite of Islam.
What do you think of the passages in the Quran and Bukhari which tell Muslims to remember God and to pray to him while they are (to use your term) “copulating”?
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• December 15th, 2009 at 4:30 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
Dear Usman

So you have then read all the books “in totality” of Hazrat sb. from which the website quotes? Because otherwise by your own admission all the quotes are out of context! Please clarify.

I have read many books of Hazrat Sb but not all. Yes, it is possible my translation might be incorrect or out of context and that is why you guys offered to help me correct my errors. After correcting one error all of you have started futile and useless debate.
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• December 15th, 2009 at 4:47 am
From ahmadibeliefs:

Thanks for clarifying that he is not your religious leader. Please let us know which person of the past or present, if any, is your religious leader.

This is another example of useless questions. My religious leader is not the topic of discussion. Topic of discussion is the errors and out of context translations on the website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com. For the moment we are trying to discussing the concept of worship being same copulation of Ahmadis as discussed on:
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya
If you think the message is clear please confirm so we move to the 3rd quote. If you think there is any mistranslation please let me know so that we can discuss. For God sake, stop these stupid questions. My question to you is, which Mujaddid is best of all? Who is your favorite politician – how did that politician effected your religious ideas? Who is your favorite singer, how does that singer helps you in copulation?

2. You say: “I have given the reference already; anyone can go and read one page, two pages or whole book.”
Would you then place the above statement on your website, saying that you encourage people to look up the reference, which may be found on such-and-such a website?

I have not made my website for dumb and stupid people. If someone does not know when page number and name of book is given it means in itself that you can check the reference for authenticity and full context. My demand to you is to put the basic concepts of English language 3 times on every page of your website so that people are clear how to read English.

3. You don’t want to admit that the words “kill them wherever you find them” are being presented out of context by the opponents of Islam. This shows you are prepared to side with the opponents of Islam just out of spite for Hazrat Mirza sahib.

I admit. Happy? Now please comment on copulation of Ahmadis.

4. It is pointless to say that Hazrat Mirza sahib has gone to the opposite extreme to what Christianity teaches. Islam itself, on the topic of marriage and some other issues, teaches the opposite of Christianity. Assuming you are a Muslim, you should be concerned with whether he has gone to the opposite of Islam.

I am not concerned that Mirza Sb has gone against opposite to Christianity. I am admiring a quality of Mirza Sb that look how a vast population of humanity considers copulation as filth. On the contrary Hazrat Sb has elevated this act of copulation to such a level that it has become equal to making love with God. Are you actually a doctor? Generally, the doctors are bit wiser.

What do you think of the passages in the Quran and Bukhari which tell Muslims to remember God and to pray to him while they are (to use your term) “copulating”?

Somehow, you look very confused. I have not put an objection on the fact that Hazrat Sb gave copulation such a high status that pious Ahmadis get confused if they had intercourse or offered prayers. It is you who is putting objection that I wrote something out of context. When I am not objecting on anything, why should I give clarification?
I am actually very fascinated by the idea that Ahmadi men go the mosque and experience orgasm. This could be one reason that may attract young people to appreciate the works of Hazrat Mirza Sb.
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• December 15th, 2009 at 6:48 am
From Zahid Aziz:
I am sure every reader will now have fully seen the repeated avoidance and stone-walling of any of my questions by “Ahmadi Beliefs”. His tactics have been thoroughly exposed.
He has refused to let us know what his own beliefs are about the same topics that are under discussion. He hides his own religion since he knows that his objections and obscenities fall upon his own faith.
In the last paragraph above he has mocked and abused us, while avoiding my question. (He himself offers to Muslims the prospect of 72 virgins in heaven, apart from an unlimited number of concubines in this life.)
He is trying to have it both ways: both raise objections in an underhanded way and claim not to be raising objections, so that he can avoid discussion on the actual topics.
This art of “black propaganda” is not new, and is employed by purveyors of falsehood who have been completely routed in arguments.
As he is not letting the discussion proceed, I am not allowing any further posts by him. As a result, I also cannot publish any further comments by our esteemed contributors who have attempted to engage him, and I apologise to them with regret for not including some of their comments which are in the moderation queue.
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