People of the Book

Qadiani Ahmadis don’t pray behind Muslim imams, because Muslims reject their prophet Mirza. They consider us “people of the book” insofar as they would allow Muslim women to marry Qadiani men, but wouldn’t allow Qadiani women to marry Muslim men. (Lahori Ahmadis don’t have the same rules.)

Qadiani leadership allows its members to pray in Muslim mosques, so long as they don’t pray behind our imams.

The question arises, given that we are just considered people of the book by them, why don’t they pray in churches or synagogues too?

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62 thoughts on “People of the Book

  1. The answer is:

    They dont consider us Muslims…hence their behavior. I have a newspaper clipping from the ROR (1915) and the Muslim World magazines (1919) wherein Mahmud Ahmad strictly forbade Ahmadis to give their women to non-Ahmadis.

    • Yes we do not pray behind non Ahmadis as they did not obey Prophet (saws) by refusing to accept promised Messiah (as) as required by prophet (saws). Is this respect you are kafir but not out of pail of Islam.

      • Show us a statement where Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s mentioned that promised Messiah will be Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian?

        This is one big lie that Jamaat Ahmadiyya is spreading shamelessly.

        The fact is it was Hazrat Isa a.s ibn e maryam a.s, who was predicted to come and not Mirza Ghulam.

        Lanatullahi alal kazebeen.

      • The majority of Muslims reject Mirza Gullam knowing he claimed prophethood – i.e. we believe he lied.
        Thus, according to you Ahmadi’s – we are ‘kaafir’ (rejecters of the truth / non-believers) however, we are still in the fold of Islam?

        Can you please explain this..

        As to the position of Islam – we do not say that someone is ‘kaafir’ and also possibly a Muslim. They are either Muslims or not.

        Yes, someone can do an action of ‘kufr’ – which can take on different rulings, dependent on the situation – but us rejecting Gullam is not quite the same as this.

        Anyway, I look forward to your answer

      • @ Yas

        Muhammad (saw) never said to accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He said to wait for Esa bin Maryam (as), the Messiah.

        You people dont pray behind us because you hate us….

  2. Salaam

    Can we get official documentation from the Ahmadiyya for these statements?

    They call Muslims people of the book?
    They dont pray behind Muslims?
    etc..

    I know from experience, that they dont pray behind Muslims and that they dont marry their girls outside of their own religion. However, I have also seen that they dont marry their men to Muslim sisters either…

    I have also heard them coin the term – ‘non Ahmadi Muslims’ – which I am not sure what it means to be honest – but it was from a well ‘studied’ Ahmadi

    JazakAllahu khairen

    • I posted the ROR scans on the net before…the Muslim World quotation will be posted soon.

      However, it should be noted that Dr. Abdus Salam married an italian lady without the consent of his beloved Khalifa. I guess rich Ahmadis can do whatever they like..most of these rules are only for the laymen.

      • @rationalist, I personally know a (poor) Ahmadi (an artist) who is married with a christian lady. Although, the Khalifa has shown his concerns to him, especially in the growing up of the children , he has permission. It’s discouraged, but permission can be given.

        • There you go, she’s ahlekitab, so permissible to a Qadiani man in the same way a Muslim would be. My point still stands, a Qadiani woman is not allowed to marry a Muslim man. Your own founder and his son strictly prohibited that. So you have a choice, accept that Ahmadiyya, specifically the Qadiani sect is a new religion that speciously declares Muslims as kaafir and that you want to remain within that, or realise that Islam was complete when the Qur’an made it explicitly complete with 5:3 and stick with that and reject the falsehood of Ahmadiyya. Come back to Islam, it’s your birthright.

          • My concern is, why does he need ‘permission’ to even marry who he wants? Yes there are laws, but things are between him and lord. Why go to the Kilafah on such a personal endeavor?

  3. the same applies to shia vs sunni, whereby sunnis don’t pay behind shia and the other way around , and don’t marriage each other.

    • @londoner,

      You criticize sunni / shia how this so called Ahmadiyya jamaat has helped?

      By introducing terminology of non-ahmadi Muslims you have labelled everyone else. What about Lahori and Qadiani? What do you call Lahoris?

      Whether Shia or Sunni they are all within Islam and unanimously declared Ahmadis as non-Muslims.

      Mirza Ghulam the servant of Colonial forces in India served his masters to alienate and divide Muslims further. This was his main agenda. He cunningly boasted of several false claims including prophethood and maseeh maud etc.

      For all Muslims no matter who they are there is no new prophet after Muhammad p.b.u.h. Anyone who claims be a one is automatically a liar and outside the fold of Islam. Simple as that.

      If you want to follow the grand liar Mirza Ghulam, good luck to you!

      • @peace, you’re diverting from the topic. Just stating that sunni don’t pray behind shia and don’t marry to shia. It doesn’t automatically mean that they consider each other as ‘people of the book’

        • Completely incorrect and a diversion as stated elsewhere. Please respond to the topic. Further diversions will not be acceptable.

        • @londoner,
          not true at all. We have seen Sunni & Shia marriages and they do pray behind one another just like in Mecca or Medina. So your assumption is basically not true.

          You can believe in whatever you like, but Muslims are still Muslims whether shia or sunni and they are not people of the book as you cult falsely states,

          • @peace, no doubt that there are cases of intermarriage or maybe praying behind each other, but if you would research the fatawa of top scholars of these sects then you can only come to the conclusion that it is not allowed.

          • Your whole argument has been undermined, you are shifting the goalposts, you are ignoring entirely your religion’s own position; can you please now address the point of the post?

    • @ londoner

      Islam has tolerated lots of sects..minus the occassional squabbles. The Shias are actually more persecuted than Ahmadis, however, they dont benefit from the “persecution-racket”.

      However, when someone claims to be Esa (as)….that pretty much takes you out of Islam.

      • @rationalist, I personally think that Islam is so tolerant that it gives freedom of self definition. We define ourselves as Muslim, and also follow the basic tenets of Islam. We differ in opinions on the coming of Isa (as) and prophet hood.

        • Please read the links. Don’t turn Islam into a game. Baha`is don’t declare themselves to be Muslims, ponder that. New prophet = new religion, end of.

          • Londoner – hopefully not sounding rude – but, your personal opinion has no influence on how the religion of Islam is defined or practiced.
            Our scholarship has defined Islam – and we follow what they say – from the time of the prophet (saw) to now. No where does ‘Islam’ say that you can follow the faith but you can have a different belief structure to what it has laid out clearly in the religious texts – or put another way, you cannot break a pillar of its faith that actually moves you away from the religion

            To say that just because a person claims to be Muslim he is one is not valid if he doesn’t follow its belief structure.
            You say that you follow the ‘kelima’ – i.e. that there is no God and that the messenger Muhammad (saw) is his slave and prophet.
            These two pillars have conditions. Just saying them and not following the conditions doesn’t render you Muslim. Yes, the more you learn, the more conditions you find out about – but, the sentences have inherent implications that the Ahmadiyya break.
            For example – you cannot say that I believe in God but then start to say that he has 3 heads and 4 houses and that is what he lives in in paradise etc… Nor can you deduct things from Him (swt) that He has confirmed for himself.
            These conditions apply on the prophet (saw) as well – so you cannot claim things about the prophet (saw) that are not true – nor add things.

            The Ahmadi faith has broken condtions regarding the shahada – and other tennants of faith. You therefore cant just say – well I want to call myself Muslim because you have to abide by its rules and regulations and not others.
            Does not Allah (swt) warn the people: Do you believe in some of the book and disbelieve in others (Surah Baqara)

            And Allah (swt) knows best

    • Actually Londoner, at the Masjid al-haram, the Shi`a pray behind a Sunni imam and in Iraq before the West destroyed it by fuelling sectarian conflict, Sunni and Shi`a freely intermarried.

      Your point, besides being disproven, doesn’t answer the basic question and is the usual Qadiani sand-in-the-eyes approach. The question still stands – given your cult’s position on the invalidity of a Qadiani prayer behind a Muslim imam whilst allowing you to pray in Muslim mosques, why don’t you also pray in churches and synagogues?

      • It is very common in Pakistan that shia and sunni pray before same imam. Generally, the imam is Sunni – as they are in greater number. Generally, the sunnis have no problem in praying before shia imams – say when they go to Iran. Similarly, all shia pray before Saudi imam when they go for Haj or Umrah. Yes we can pray before Qadiani and they are not allowed for vice versa.

      • @Shahid, I don’t come here to throw sand in someone’s eyes or even try to divert a topic. I just want to discuss the topic with total openness and sincerity. I brought up the sunni vs shia case because it is generally not done to pray behind each other. Of course in some cases when there is a necessity like hajj, then it is allowed if it meets some conditions. The same goes for Ahmadis.

        According to my knowledge praying behind a non Ahmadi is invalid because he denies the Imam Mahdi. Imam in the prayer is a leader, if he would pray against the founder, we also would follow him in that aspect.

        But in any case we don’t consider Muslims as people of the book, but just our brother following an other sect. This is also an answer to your question, which is only answerable if you can prove that we consider other muslims ahl ul kitaab

        • Have a look at the Lahori Ahmadiyya articles here, which describe clearly the points on takfir, ahlekitab etc.:

          http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm

          http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir-kalimat-ul-fasl.htm

          Further, you’re side-stepping the point. The prayer of a shi`a is not invalid behind a sunni imam, nor vice versa. Please see the articles above for clarification on why Qadiani Ahmadis consider prayer behind a Muslim as invalid. I too used to think along the same lines until I started to discover the truth about Ahmadiyya doctrine. And my point still stands, especially in light of the above cited articles.

          All the best.

          Shahid

        • @londoner,
          with no disrespect, common practice among ahmadis is, every time their deviant beliefs are questioned, they bring an irrelevant topic as a similitude.
          Please don’t take your differences regarding new prophets and messiah lightly. These are serious issues that take one out of fold of Islam. In addition there are many other aspects of Ahmadiyya that make them like a cult.

          • @ Peace

            You are so right.

            I would like to add that Shias are the most persecuted group of Muslims in the world. However, they dont have every Shia applying for asylum and what not.

            Its obvious that Islam has been very tolerant of many sects over the years. However, when the British left in 1947…Muslims were left with the problem of Ahmadiyyat. Is it safe to say that no group of Muslims ever followed a peer who claimed to be Esa (as)??

            That is so inflammatory!! And remember…in the 1950’s, Christians in Pakistan called Khwaja Nazeer’s book about Jesus in Kashmir as inflammatory which led the govt. to ban it. Later on, through Ahmadiyya propaganda…the book was cleared for publishing.

    • You should research before you speak. Come to Brazil, Argentina; Shia and Sunnis pray in the same mosque with no problems. When shia travel, where do you think they pray? Sunni mosques!

  4. Assalaamu Alaikum,

    Addressing the issue of Imamat, there are multiple reasons why Ahmadis do not pray behind an Imam who, according to them, has not accepted Imam Mahdi. One of the reasons is because according to the Hadith, the Imam Mahdi will be “Imamukum Minkum”. So the one who is believed to be Imam Mahdi has instructed his followers to select an Imam from amongst themselves in light of this hadith. I think this is a perfectly rational reason for them doing so.

    Regarding the issue of marriage, of course people generally like to marry from among people like themselves, with whom they share some basic similarities. So that is why it is highly discouraged for an Ahmadi lady to marry a non-Ahmadi man. If she for whatever reason decides to marry a non-Ahmadi man, it would of course not be liked, but it is not against Shari’ah. I think that a majority of Ahmadi women would prefer marrying an Ahmadi man anyway, so hopefully this is a minor issue. In 1919 or whatever, maybe it was more of an issue, but now it doesn’t seem to be since many Ahmadis have now migrated from the sub-Indian continent. Maybe there was a need to avoid too much assimilation with other Muslims at that type, in order to preserve the distinction of Ahmadi beliefs and to develop the community. As you can see, that distinction is still alive and so is the community.

    Finally, Ahmadis do not consider non-Ahmadis as people of the book. I hope this solves the problems you are having.

    • Why be deceptive? Let’s call a spade a spade, shall we? Watering things down by calling Mirza “Imam Mahdi” when according to Qadiani Ahmadis he is a full blown prophet is just straight out disingenuous.

      This kind of theology is just “make it up as you go along”, and is not why Mirza and his sons told their followers not to pray behind Muslim imams. So call a spade a spade. Make it clear. What you should say is “we don’t pray behind your imams because you reject our prophet”. That’s it. Nice and clear, factual and helps us arrive at the truth instead of obfuscation and deception.

      “Generally like to marry from people among themselves” is so wishy-washy, why are you watering things down? You have multiple, clear referenced instructions from your leaders not to give your daughters to Muslim men. (That more and more of them are choosing to do so nevertheless must be of some cause for concern.) And this position is consistent with you having your own prophet and considering us to be people of the book.

      So the question still stands and your final patronising comments doesn’t answer it.

      Why don’t you pray in a church or a synagogue if you’re prepared to pray in a Muslim mosque?

      • Like I said, there are multiple reasons for why we do not pray behind other Muslim Imams. The one you gave is a very weak one. I don’t think there is any issue with the reason I gave you, in fact it is one of the strongest reasons in my view. So I will repeat it again. We do not pray behind other Muslim Imams because they have not, according to our beliefs, accepted the Imam Mahdi who is Imamukum Minkum. That Imam who we believe in has instructed us to select an Imam from among ourselves for prayer. That is a perfect reasonable reason in light of the Hadith. Agree or not? What does him being an ummati prophet as well have anything to do with the reason I gave you?

        As far as the marriage issue is concerned, I do not believe HMGA has anywhere explicitly prohibited Ahmadi women from marrying Ahmadi men in any and all situations ever. There are instances where it is not permissible, and there are situations where it may be permissible. Is that not a reasonable policy?

        Finally, I would like to know the reference where Khalifa II prohibited marriages between an Ahmadi woman and a non-Ahmadi man. I don’t care what the third, fourth or fifth caliph had to say on the issue.

        The entire world is a prayer mat for Muslims, so if I found myself having to pray in a church or synagogue, there would not be any problem with it, as long as there were no idols/pictures in the vicinity of the prayer.

        Thanks.

        • Regarding the statement:
          ‘As far as the marriage issue is concerned, I do not believe HMGA has anywhere explicitly prohibited Ahmadi women from marrying Ahmadi men in any and all situations ever’

          You stated yourself that Muslims do not accept Mirza Gullam as Messiah/Prophet – in fact, Muslims go beyond this in that we call him a liar and the ummah (including all the Muslim scholars) have agreed that he and his followers are kuffar (I am using blunt statements not to offend, but to show the actual stance that has been taken – so we are clear that Muslims reject Ahmadiyya, their founder and their leaders)

          How can there then be a case where you would accept to pray behind us or marry into us? Do you really need a statement from Mirza Gullam to make a decision here? You can conclude this argument for yourself.

          Secondly – although my reading on the early life of the Ahmadiyya movement is limited – I am sure either scholars had already given rulings that Mirza was a liar and his followers were not Muslim. If we were rejecting him as prophet then – he must have made his position regarding Muslims very clear then and there.
          If there was not this general ruling – then him being a ‘prophet’ in your eyes would allow him to see the future of the world – and therefore he must have giving rulings about marriage/inheritance/fighting/prayer for the future generations etc…

          Finally – It is for sure that you would not pray behind any other who rejected your prophet and said such things about your group as us Muslims do? I mean, you wouldn’t marry a Hindu and you almost definately wouldn’t pray behind them? So why different to the Muslims – we in apart from having a faith that has no idols are to you as the Hindu’s are

          And Allah (swt) knows best

          • May I ask why do you consider us Kafir despite the clear saying of the Holy Prophet (saw) that if a Muslim calls another a Kafir, despite the latter’s recitation of the Kalima, then he himself becomes Kafir? Do I not recite the same Kalima as all of you? Do I not believe that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad (saw) is the Messenger of Allah?

            HMGA did not categorically prohibit the women of the Jama’at to marry non-Ahmadi men, so the reasonable thing to do would be to decide on a case by case basis. I do not doubt that there are Muslims who do not take the extreme stance against us, so there may be some possibility for that to happen.

            You are correct that Hindus are not Ahl-al-Kitab so we would not marry our women with them. I gave you the reason for not praying behind other Muslims which is an interpretation of the hadith “Imamukum Minkum”. On the other hand, in my view there is no reason for categorically prohibiting marriage of our women with other Muslims according to Shariah, so that can be decided on a case by case basis in such rare instances which should be (from our perspective) in the interest of our Jama’at well-being. Is that fair?

            Ws,
            Nasir M.

          • You have your own prophet and your own religion, and according to 1400 years of Islamic consensus, derived from Qur’an and Sunnah, Qadianism is kufr. Now whilst we would advise against takfeer, your kalima, like may other Qadiani deceptions, is the same in words, just not in spirit. I’m not sure if you repeat your religion’s well worn apologia out of ignorance or disingenuousness, but we have a duty not to let Muslims get deceived by your cult’s chicanery. On the kalimah:

            “With the coming of Promised Messiah one difference (in the meaning of Kalima) has occured and that is that before the advent of Promised Messiah, in the meaning of ‘Mohammad ur Rasoolullah’ only Prophets of bygone days were included, BUT with the advent of Promised Messiah, ONE MORE PROPHET HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE MEANING OF MOHAMMADUR RASOOLULLAH……thus to enter in Islam it is still the same Kalima, the only difference is that the advent of Promised Messiah has added one more propet to its meaning…we don’t need a new Kalima, because Promised Messiah is nothing seperate from Holy Prophet, as he says: ‘saara wujoodi wujoodahoo (my person became his person)’ and ‘he who differentiates between me and Mustafa has not seen me and not recognises me’…..thus Promised Messiah is Mohammad Rasoolullah himself who has come again in tis world to spread Islam, therefore we do not need any new Kalima. Yes if someone else had come then we may have required it — thus think all of you.”

            (KalimatAlFasl p.158 by Mirza Basheer Ahmad)

            As for Muslims not taking an “extreme” stance against you, it is your cult that stepped away from Islam and declared us all as pakka kaafir. So, please avoid the chicanery, whether it be deliberate or not.

            Please see here: http://irshad.org/exposed/think.php

            You ignored everything I wrote some time ago about your odd use of “imamukum minkum” – again, either deliberate deception or ignorance. Which is it?

            As for case by case basis, that’s not shari`ah. If you want your own shari`ah, that’s fine, you have your own religion, with your own prophet and rules.

          • “May I ask why do you consider us Kafir…”

            Firstly – the Ahmadiyya claim prophethood after the prophet (saw) – therefore, they actually either deny the words of the Allah (swt) and His prophet (saw). This itself is kufr

            Secondly – I follow the vast majority of scholarship that exists in the Muslim world. We have agreement across the globe that the Ahmediyya faith is not Islam. From scholars in Al-Azhar, to Saudi, Pakistan, Malaysia etc.. the entire ummah has agreed your faith is not Islam

            Thirdly – even if the Ahmadiyya follow some religious commands that Islam has set down (eg. The prayer, fasting etc..) they have broken away from its belief structure. Statements about finality of prophethood, or that non-Muslims will enter paradise are just some that we Muslims disagree on. Also their view that Jihad has ended and that Adam (as) was not the first man are also some more very major differences we have.

            Fourthly – Just like I could go to church every Sunday and drink the wine and eat the bread – perhaps even pray like a Christian – but then claim to say that for example, Jesus is not the son of God – the Catholics would classify me as non-Christian.
            The Ahmadiyya faith has done the same – they have some visual similarities (perhaps even many) – but they are not the same religion and they dont have the same creed.

            As for the statement of the prophet (saw) about making takfir – well, this is a long discussion which can be discussed using daleel from the prophet – and the understanding of early scholarship on it – but for the moment – let us say that if all the scholarship on the planet for the past 100 years agrees you are not Muslims – then we as Muslims follow them.

            ——-
            As for the rest of your argument – like I mentioned before – how can your religion not prohibit marriage/prayer as a definitive. We Muslims do not have any difference of opinion that we cannot pray behind ‘kuffar’ or people of the book.
            Since the Ahmadiyya have kicked us Muslims out of your ‘religion’ – we have become ‘kuffar’ in your eyes. We are not ahl-kitaab for you – we are ‘murtadeen’ – apostates. Thus, marriage, prayer, inheritance etc… is not allowed. You cannot say that this is a case-by-case situation, because no matter who you find – they will reject Mirza as a prophet, even though they might be Ahmadiyya friendly (thus you have to by definition not agree they are from your faith) – also – we as Muslims dont look at the non-muslims and say, well actually your ‘Islam friendly’, thus we can marry you into us. This is not how fiqh works – and unless this is a fiqhy ruling just for Ahmadiyya – then this is a different argument.

            Wa Allahu alam

          • @ Shahid

            I don’t think I read what you mentioned about the Hadith I presented, or maybe I didn’t read carefully enough. In any case, I don’t appreciate your tone. I came here as a friend not an enemy.

            Secondly, did you peek into my heart and saw that I do not believe in the spirit of the Kalima despite my recitation of the same? Would you have done the same to me that the one Muslim did to another on the battlefield as narrated in the Hadith? I don’t question your recitation of the Kalima.

            Finally, the quote about not having a new Kalima. He is right, we don’t have a new Kalima nor do we need a new one because we do not believe in a new prophet. We believe that the advent of the Holy Prophet (saw) as foretold in Surah Jumu’ah has been fulfilled in the person of HMGA. So based on this and other things, please do not say we have no argument from Quran regarding Nubuwwat. We do based our arguments on Quran first, then Hadith which are not opposed to Quran. If it is a matter of concluding differently then so be it.

            Ws,
            Nasir M.

          • @ Abu Musa

            Permit me to comment on the various points you raised.

            First point

            Our claim that a follower of the Holy Prophet (saw) can attain the rank of Nabi is based on our interpretation of various verses of Quran and based on the vastness of the rank of the Holy Prophet (saw) as Khatamun-Nabiyyeen. If there are Hadith about no prophets or messengers, it can only be applicable until the inevitable descent of Masih, who is a Nabi and has been called Nabi. Additionally, I attempted my best to explain the wisdom behind this in another post below.

            Second point

            I am sorry to say, but no matter how many zeroes you add together, you still get zero. The fact is that maybe you or anyone among the scholars you mention would have killed me on that same battlefield mentioned in Hadith if I recited the Kalima in front of you, just because you thought I was faking it. But I do not doubt your recitation of the same and would hope I would not have done that to you.

            Third point

            Our creed as Muslims is what is contained in the Kalima, it is very simple. Then there are four more pillars that support a person’s Islam. Then there are 5 or 6 articles of faith which form the foundation for the belief of a believer. The points you raised are minor differences based on interpretation of Quran and Hadith and those should be allowed. If someone wants to belief that the earth is flat, it may mean he is severely lacking in knowledge but it doesn’t mean that he has no intellect.

            Fourth point

            Well if one believes that Jesus is not the son of God based on his or her own scriptures, one could argue that he or she is more Christian than the ones claiming they are Christians and who are classifying him or her as non Christian.

            Final point

            I will do my best to make this easy to understand from our viewpoint:

            –We do not pray behind you based on a reasonable interpretation of the Hadith “Imamukum Minkum” which has nothing to do with whatever else we say about HMGA. This interpretation only has to do with the fact that we believe him to be Imam Mahdi.

            –There is no valid reason to categorically prohibit Ahmadi women from marrying non-Ahmadi men. Obviously I would encourage them to try their best to find a suitable Ahmadi match, for the sake of our Jama’at’s well being (even if it means being the second or third or fourth wife of an Ahmadi), but nobody can stop it from happening.

            –We do not consider you ahl-al-kitab, sorry if you feel that way. We only believe you are kafir if you consider us kafir or if you consider as Muslims those who consider us Kafir against the advice of the Holy Prophet (saw)

            –Permission in Quran for a Muslim man to marry non-Muslim women certainly cannot apply to a Christian who believes that Jesus shares in divinity, for that person would be considered as an idolator. Do you agree?

            Ws,
            Nasir M.

          • “Our claim that a follower of the Holy Prophet (saw) can attain the rank of Nabi is based on our interpretation…”

            To break down this argument takes a bit of background discussion because – ‘your interpretation’ or the ‘interpretation of the Ahmadiyya’ means nothing unless it has textual proof and scholarship from Islam to back you up. Otherwise, you would have an understanding of Islam that none of the Muslims before had (including the companions of the prophet (saw) – and I would even say the prophet (saw)) – and that breaks the verse that Allah (swt) mentions in Surah Maida “today I have completed your religion…” and Islam can not be ‘complete’ unless the companions of the prophet (saw) had fully understood the religion.
            Also – apart from the verse of the Qur’an in surah Nisaa – there is no other ‘daleel’ (proof) for you to show that the door of prophethood is still open – and we have already discussed the background to the revelation of this verse.
            For the Ahmadiyya to interpret this verse to say: well it means people can become prophets in this world and be with them in the next is a ‘huge’ statement that again needs other proof or scholarly backing. The fact that Isa (as) returns does not mean the door of prophethood is open for millions more to come – and this has been discussed many times before – you will even find posts on this website fully discussing this.
            What is interesting though – all the scholars of Islam, from day one until now have agreed that Muhammad (saw) is the last prophet and rasul – and the real meaning of Khatum an-nabi is last – and there are numerous hadith to support this, and also a consensus of scholarship. I mean that is a whole bundle of proof – in which the only counter is an incorrectly interpreted verse from Surah Nisaa. Moreover, for you to say – well ‘no prophets’ is from the time of Muhammad (saw) until the coming of Isa (as) and then prophets can come (even in thousands) is something completely new – with no scholarly backing and again no proof.
            So – I ask Insha’Allah – If you can find me any scholar from day one until the advent of Mirza saying that prophethood is still open (without mentioning Isa (as). Or if not, then that prophethood opens once Isa (as) returns

            —-

            To mention your points one by one:
            The scholars of Islam agree that anyone claiming Islam (and praying and giving Zakat) cannot be called kaafir (unless they do something whereby a hujah can be placed on them to remove them from Islam). They also agree that Ahmadiyya is not Islam – even though you claim to say the kelima.
            So, no one goes around individually calling anyone a kaafir if he says the kelma – but the Ahmadiyya faiths is not Islam and those who die upon it do not die as Muslims. This is the agreed opinion of many fatwa councils from across the globe which have on them the most knowledgeable scholars of Islam today.

            In your third point – you said that we do not differ on the pillars of Islam or the tenants of faith. Again, Ahmadiyyas may ‘say’ the same words, but they hold different meanings to them. When we say that there is no God but Allah (swt) and Muhammad (saw) is his messenger – once knowledge of the verse in the Quran in Surah Al-Ahzaab and some of the hadith of the prophet (saw) about the finality of him being prophet – included in our statement is the ‘belief’ that no new prophet will come. The Ahmadiyya don’t do that when they come across the same verses or hadith. Thus, we don’t have the same tenants of faith or pillars of the religion. To simply brush this of as a ‘minor difference’ is not true

            Your final statements are still going back to the same problem. You cannot say that there is ‘no valid reason’ for Ahmadiyya to marry Muslims – because rejection of your prophet removes us from your ‘religion’.
            How can you cant say that we are ‘kaafir’ and non-ahmadiya if only we call you kaafir. I call a Christian a kaafir not because he calls me one – but because his belief puts him out of Islam. Our belief according to your doctrine has removed us from what you believe is Islam.
            And like I said, unless you counted us as people of the book (which you reject) then you cannot marry into us. It breaks your religious premise – otherwise you would be able to pray behind us.

            Your last point is actually untrue. Allah (swt) says about the Christians – they hold Allah (swt) as three and in the next verse He (swt) says that they call Jesus the son of God. This is in Surah Maida. Then Allah (swt) in the same surah, that it is allowed to marry them (people of the book – including these Christians) and the actual only condition put on it is that they are chaste and that you give them their dowry.
            Further to this, and in the rules of fiqh in terms of marrying those who are of the book states that we have to take them to their churches on Sunday (if they ask to go) and the same with the Jews on Saturday – even though we know in the Church shirk will take place.
            Finally – the people of the book were never called idol worshippers – but Allah (swt) did say that they were kuffar – those who did certain actions

            Wa Allahu alam

    • Dear Nasir,

      I’m afraid you are not aware of your Jamaats policies. Have a look at this expulsion letter:

      http://thecult.info/forum/download/file.php?id=599
      http://thecult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1680

      It clearly states that marrying a non-Ahmadi is reason enough for expulsion. That goes for Ahmadi men and women who wish to marry outside of the Jamaat. I know of some cases where Ahmadis have married outside of the Jamaat but they were non-Pakistanis. The Jamaat was therefore not able to use social pressure as it does with Ahmadis from the subcontinent. They are also allowed to stay in the jamaat, because, hey, non-pakistani Ahmadi!

      Now, can you clearly state the ayat or the hadith where it says that Muslim who accept the Imam Mahdi will not be allowed to marry other Muslims? Why are Muslim men allowed to marry Christian and Jewish women who haven’t accepted the Holy Prophet (saw)? Ahmadiyya clearly has no case in this regard. I urge you to look into the teachings of your religion and realise the falsehood that it represents. May Allah show you the path to Islam.

      Oh, fun fact: your “Imam” Mahdi avoided leading the congregational prayer and had others lead the prayers instead. Our Imam Mahdi will lead the prayer in Makkah insh’Allah.

      • Many current Jamaat policies are against Shariah and also against the teachings of HMGA. It is something I am already aware of. Like I said before, nowhere did HMGA categorically prohibit his followers from marrying other Muslims. It must be assessed on a case by case basis. I do not believe that is an unreasonable policy.

        Our belief regarding the interpretation of Imam Mahdi leading the prayers at Makkah is not a literal one, because he was to appear east of An-Nahr, east of Damascus. I met a Palestinian Muslim recently and without disclosing my beliefs to him, he himself told me that he believes the Imam Mahdi will appear somewhere in India or Pakistan based on his understanding of the Hadith.

        So our interpretation of that is metaphorica, that the Imam Mahdi will be the spiritual Imam for the Muslims and will lead them by following Quran and Sunnah.

  5. Ahmadis not only consider Mirza as a Prophet after Muhammad s.a.w.s., but also consider followers of Mirza as sahaba and women as Ummahatul momineen (nauzobillah).

    Muslims do not consider Mirza as a Prophet or Messiah based on authentic teachings of Quran and Hadith and the life example of Mirza himself.

    If Ahmadis do not pray behind Muslims or marry a muslim, it is clear they have separated themselves from Muslim Ummah and have a right to do so (if they do not care for hereafter) . The only thing their leadership needs to do is officially declare like Bahais that they are not part of Islam.

    In this matter Lahoris are much better and they understood that although Mirza claimed, but there can be no new prophet after Muhammad s.a.w.s and Mirza is not Messiah as well for this title is exclusively for Hazrat Isa ibn e Maryam a.s.

    This is not a complicated matter at all, but the motives of Ahmadi Murabbis are very clear they intentionally distort the teachings of Islam and keep Ahmadis away from Muslims and under their control. Either they separate from Islam or if they are GOD fearing leave these stupid mindgames and come back to Islam.

    If the Murabbis cannot decide then the Ahmadis trapped in this cult must make a decision for themselves.

    • [admin: This canned response has been rebutted so trivially, so often, that we’d have to request that you actually learn some basic `aqeedah before commenting with this kind of conspiracy theory again.]

      Here is my take on the frequent objections against Ahmadis regarding Nabuwwat.

      In Surah Fatihah, we pray:

      “Guide us in the right path, the path upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings.”

      This is a prayer we read about 30 times a day. That implies that each individual reads it almost 11,000 times a year. It is practically being recited every minute of the day by the Ummah.

      Elsewhere in the Holy Quran, we read:

      “And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger of His shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His blessings, namely, the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And excellent companions are these” (4:70)

      So from this it is clear that we are constantly praying for the Ummah that there descend the blessings of Prophethood, Truthfulness, Martyrdom and RIghteousness in it. Is it not true that there have been and always will be in the Ummah people who, by obeying Allah and His Messenger (saw), attain to righteousness, martyrdom and Truthfulness? Given that, does it not logically follow that there should also be people who attain to the rank of Nabuwwat (having alot of knowledge of the unseen bestowed upon them by way of dreams, revelations and visions) only by way of perfect obedience to Allah and His Messenger (saw)? Are not all these four ranks available/accessible to the Muslims as a fulfillment of the prayer of Surah Fatihah, which we read so many times in our lives?

      I hope you can understand my view.

      • @ nasir

        I have heard this argument from Ahmadis many times over.

        First off…there is a hadith in Sahih Bukhari which explains 4:70 clearly. You need to look that up like ASAP. Its from the chapter on “Quranic commentary”.

        Secondly, Surah Fatiha doesnt ask us to pray to become prophets. In Islamic and Jewish history…only Allah makes prophets. Prophethood is a gift…its not a job application.

        • I think I have read the Hadith you are talking about in Bukhari. I fully accept that interpretation of the Quranic verse which is implied in the Hadith.

          At the same time, I do not deny that there have been and will be in the future, hundreds of millions of Righteous ones, Martyrs, and Truthful. Therefore I logically conclude that there should then also be hundreds of thousands of people who possessed, and will possess in the future, the light of Nubuwwat, and that there was a lot of wisdom in one of them openly declaring this nubuwwat 1300 years after the Holy Prophet (saw).

          I agree with you that Prophethood is not a job application, that it is a gift from God. What I am saying is that we pray in Surah Fatihah that Allah may grant that gift to many Muslims in the Ummah, as well as granting the gifts of truthfulness, martyrdom and righteous to the Ummah as well.

          • @ Rationalist

            We are in agreement that Prophethood is a gift from Allah and not something you apply for.

            We also agree that Truthfulness, Martyrdom and Righteousness are all gifts from Allah and not job applications.

            I think we agree that we are praying in Surah Fatihah that Allah grants these blessings for the Ummah constantly and in every age.

            I think we disagree on whether or not a Muslim, by being completely devoted to Allah (by obeying his Word the Quran) and to the Holy Prophet (saw) (by following his Sunnah), can be granted the gift of Nubuwwat, like there have been millions of Muslims who have been granted the gift of Truthfulness, millions more who have been granted the gift of Martyrdom, and millions more who have been granted the gift of Righteousness in this very life.

            Is that correct or did I not understand something?

            Jazakallah

      • As far as the Ayat you have mentioned (in surah An-Nisaa) as your proof that we can become prophets if we are good enough in obeying Allah (swt) and his messenger (saw)…
        Even if the reason for this revelation was not given to us – what do you as an Ahmadi with the 10’s of hadith that mention that prophethood has come to an end? I mean, categorically, the prophet (saw) has said he is the last prophet, the last rasul and that none will come after him – he (saw) even said that those who claim so are liars and dajaloon.
        Then comes Mirza claiming prophethood – and all I see is these many different hadith thrown away and either strange interpretations given for them or – this argument you have posted as a dodge to the question.
        Anyway, inshaAllah, I hope you read the reason for its revelation – perhaps you will stop using it as a far fetched argument for Mirza claiming to be a prophet, or anyone else after him:

        “An Ansari man came to the Messenger of Allah while feeling sad. The Prophet said to him, `Why do I see you sad?’
        He said, `O Allah’s Prophet! I was contemplating about something.’
        The Prophet said, `What is it?’
        The Ansari said, `We come to you day and night, looking at your face and sitting by you. Tomorrow, you will be raised with the Prophets, and we will not be able to see you.’
        The Prophet did not say anything, but later Jibril came down to him with this Ayah, وَمَن يُطِعِ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ (And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His grace, of the Prophets), and the Prophet sent the good news to the Ansari man.”

        • What I am saying is that while the Quran mentions the blessings of the hereafter, those blessings in some form are also available in this life as well. Otherwise, if that interpretation of 4.69 is the only possibility, then why should I not say what Allah comanded the Holy Prophet (saw) to say to the Jews – “Pray for death if you are truthful”? If I cannot have the companionship of righteous, martyrs, truthful and nabis, or attain to one of those ranks myself in this life, why shouldn’t I pray for death so I can join them where I can join them?

          Quran says to keep company with the Siddique (truthful). How can I obey that command in this life if there are no Siddiques? And if there are Siddiques in this life, then why can’t there be Nabis as well as Martys and Righteous logically per 4.69 and Surah Fatihah?

          In my view, the Sahaba achieved those ranks of Siddique, Shaheed and Saleh in this life. So then they became worried about their hereafter and Allah mercifully granted them those blessings which they desired for their hereafter as mentioned in Hadith.

          As an Ahmadi, I would say that there have been many people in the Ummah in the past who, by following Quran and Sunnah, have attained to this rank of Nubuwwat due to the blessings of the prayer of Surah Fatihah, but the name of “Prophet” was
          not given to them in order to safeguard the dignity of
          prophethood of the Holy Prophet (saw) and so that the Ummah does not get confused regarding his rank as Khatamun-Nabiyyeen.

          Then after so much time had elapsed, about 1,300 years, there was a need to demonstrate that the graces of the Holy Prophet (saw) are still alive and that Islam is the only Living faith to cause the triumph of Islam over all religions as promised in Surah Fath. There was also a need to prove the resemblance this Ummah has with the Ummah of Hadhrat Musa (as) as proven by the word “Kama” used in the Holy Quran.

          The Masih for the Israelites was a Nabi and thus the same word was used for the Masih who would appear in the later ages of Islam. Thus HMGA, claimant of Masih in the 14th Islamic century, announced his Nubuwwat at a time where there was no fear that this could derogate the rank of the Holy Prophet (saw).

          You can think of it like this. At one time the Holy Prophet (saw) said do not visit the graves and then later he allowed it. Forbidding it at first was based on
          wisdom because the people had given up idol worship only recently, so he did not want that they may return to that habit. Later, when he saw that their
          faith has reached excellence and there was no possibility of suggesting any kind of partners or innovation in their faith, then he allowed it.

          So at first, Allah did not use the term “Prophet” in the Ummah for those high ranking Muslim saints who received the blessings of prophethood in the past, but now after so much time has elapsed, there is no fear of its use. Rather, it has proven many wonderful prophecies and truths of Islam and will be the cause of its domination over all other faiths soon inshaAllah.

          • Firstly – The verse ‘who obeys Allah and His messenger…’ will be rewarded by being raised with the four categories. Did the prophet tell that Sahaba that came to him that no Saliheen are on the planet? Or Mujahideen? The verse doesn’t diminish that there are no good people on this planet – but the other verse in Surah Al-Ahzaab and the hadiths of the prophet have removed prophethood from this world and Insha’Allah, those who are good Muslims in this world get that reward of being with them in the hereafter. I dont see how you then interpret that to mean:
            1. Well if I dont get time with a prophet in this world, of if I cannot become one – then let me ask for death.
            Or 2. That there are none of the other three categories left. We do not have any clear evidence that Allah (swt) has ended Saliheen – but on the other hand, we have clear cut evidence that prophethood has ended.
            So, you can still be with the other categories, since Allah (swt) hasn’t taken them from us. And moreover, you would have to be at least someone righteous to get that rank of being raised with the prophets on the day of judgement

            Secondly – the prophet (saw) said the best of generations was his and then the two that followed them. How comes none of them were prophets? If they were the best, none of them got prophethood by obeying Allah (swt) and His messenger (saw). If you believe many of them were – then why did no one claim it. Rather, why did they agree that it cannot happen?
            Then a man 1400 years after, claims to have done so? And then on top of that, gave an interpretation to Islam that no one before had said – that Islam is still open to thousands of prophets?

            For you to say that you believe many prophets have come before us – well, I guess all the Muslims on here are making dua’ for you to come back to Islam

            Wa Allahu alam

          • I do have one question – and I have never had an Ahmadiyya answer me – so perhaps you can.

            What do you say about the hadith where the prophet (saw) said: there will be a number of liars in my ummah claiming prophethood – but I am the seal of the prophets, no prophet will come after me

    • I cannot answer for the Murrabis’ behavior. You must understand that they are being paid by the center and therefore are restricted from speaking the truth, when it means speaking against the Nizam (administration) since then their funds for their livelihood may be cut off. This is a problem in all religious organizations whose missionaries are paid completely by the center.

      I already mentioned that we do not pray behind Muslims who in our view have not accepted Imam Mahdi according to an interpretation of the Hadith that the Mahdi will be “Imamukum MInkum” so therefore we should select Imams from amongst ourselves. We do not prohibit other Muslims from praying behind us. So how does all of this put us outside of the Ummah?

      Ws
      Nasir M.

      • @ nasir

        All Ahle-Sunnah-wa-Jamma related Muslims pray behind each other without questions…barring a few exceptions….

        However, Ahmadis went out of their way to issue announcements to the effect that they wont share religious events with Sunni-Muslims.

        Ahmadiyyat wanted isolation….

  6. @Nasir,

    I agree with you that murabbis are paid by centre and do not necessarily speak the truth. Here is a perfect example:

    You have attempted to quote surah nisa ayah 69, to support Ahmadiyya claim that more prophets will come.

    Let me sincerely remind you brother this is a very serious flaw in Ahmadiyya translation of Holy Quran.

    This verse was revealed in the background of a special event which has been reported by the great commentator, Ibn Kathir as based on several sound authorities.

    It so happened, narrates Sayyidah ‘A’ishah r.a, Allah be pleased with her, that a Companion came to the Holy Prophet s.a.w.s, one day and said to him: ‘Ya Rasulallah, I hold you dear, dearer than my own life, even more than my wife and more than my children. There are times when I do not seem to be at peace with myself even in my house until I come to you and have the pleasure of looking at you. That finally gives me the peace I missed. Now, I am worried about the time when you will leave this mortal world and I too will be taken away by death. In that case, what I know for sure is that you will be in Paradise with the blessed prophets housed in its most exalted stations. As for myself, first of all, I just do not know whether or not I shall be able to reach Paradise. Even if I do reach there, the level where I shall be will be way below from where you are. If I am unable to visit you and have the pleasure of seeing you there, how am I going to put this impatient heart of mine at rest?’

    The Holy Prophet s.a.w.s. quietly heard what he said, but made no response, until came the revelation of this particular verse (69):

    It was only then that the Holy Prophet s.a.w.s. gave him the glad tidings that the obedient ones shall have occasions to meet with the prophets, the Siddiqin, the Shuhada’ and the righteous. In other words, despite the relative precedence of ranks in Paradise, there will be occasions of meeting and sitting together.

    In short, all those who are totally obedient to Allah سبحانه و تعالى and His Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم shall be in the company of those who are the most exalted and the most favoured in the sight of Allah Almighty and who have been identified here under four ranks: Prophets عليهم الصلاة والسلام, Siddiqeen, Shuhadaa’ and Saliheen (righteous).

    Let me assure you brother, there is no ambiguity in Holy Quran re: the finality of prophethood and by denying this alone one is outside fold of Islam. Hope this answers your question and encourages you to do your own study of Islam and one day hope to see you back as part of the Muslim Ummah.
    Ameen.
    Wasalaam.

    • I accept your interpretation in light of the Hadith and appreciate your mentioning that incident which is very much inspiring.

      I would simply add that 4.69 also applies to this life as well. For those future generations to follow after the Holy Prophet (saw) who never got the chance to meet and see his blessed countenance, Allah would grant the gifts of righteousness, martyrdom and truthfulness to those worthy of such gifts in the Ummah as God pleases. Then, some special people would be blessed with the gift of prophethood due to their obedience of Allah (following Quran) and their obedience of the Holy Prophet s.a.w (following Sunnah). These people would be present in each and every age as a constant blessing of God and the spiritual graces of the Holy Prophet (saw) due to the perfect prayer that is called Surah Fatihah.

      • One has to interpret the Quran and Sunnah in light of all the evidence that is presented to us. There is a clear verse in the Quran that says the prophet is ‘The Last of the prophets’ – Khatam an Nabiyeen(Khatim an Nabiyeen). There are ahadith totalling more than 100 where the prophet categorically says ‘ There will be no prophet after me’. These are ‘explicit’ statements. In Islam one cannot reject explicit statements over an implicit statement that you are trying to infer some meaning to. It stands no ground brother. This is not just. I plead with you to accept the explicit verse in the quran and explicit ahadith and stop following the twisted implicit murmurings of the ignorant. One cannot stand on the Day of Judgement infront of Allah talking about some implicit verse when He has given you a clear explicit verse refuting it.

      • @ Nasir M.

        We have very clear statements from our holy Prophet s.a.w.s, advising us that there will be no more Prophets, so if you still differ in this matter, then we have to stop here as it is not advisable to enter into endless arguments. There is no compulsion in matters of faith as truth stands clear from falsehood.
        Wasalam.

        “Narrated Abu Huraira, r.a: The Prophet said, ‘The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number.’ The people asked, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?’ He said, ‘Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship.’ (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)”

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