A Fracture in Belief


00:00:00 – #1 A Fracture in Belief

00:02:48 – #2 Who am I?

00:03:55 – #3 Belief

00:04:36 – #4 A Fracture in Belief

00:07:56 – #5 Life as an Ahmadi

00:09:30 – #6 Experiences

00:19:30 – #7 Experiences (the constant talk of persecution)

00:24:04 – #8 Other faiths

00:24:24 – #9 Experiences

00:28:30 – #10 Stress Fracture

00:28:50 – #11The pregnancy explanation

00:30:38 – #12 Abuse

00:33:03 – #13 All Work and No Play

00:36:40 – #14 Prophet of Doom

00:40:20 – #15 Muhammadi Begum

00:43:10 – #16 Muhammadi Begum (first subhead ‘Muhammadi Begum married Mirza Sultan Ahmad’)

00:45:05 – #17 Muhammadi Begum (for 10 years he chased a married woman)

00:46:00 – #18 Blasphemy

00:47:35 – #19 Blasphemy Unveiled

00:50:15 – #20 Tampering with the Qur’an

00:51:05 – #21 Tampering with the Qur’an (second slide)

00:53:00 – #22 Fracture Shock

00:54:20 – #23 A Tendency to Exaggeration

00:59:20 – #24 Yalash

01:00:06 – #25 Yalash 2 (detail on Yalash)

01:02:40 – #26 Insulting Jesus

01:04:33 – #27 Nonsensical Revelations

01:10:28 – #28 What does Allah (SWT) Say?

01:10:55 – #29 Cognitive Dissonance & Prophecy

01:14:49 – #30 Common Complaints

01:20:45 – #31 Qur’an slide (Surat al-Baqara verses 1-5)

01:22:15 – #32 Qur’an slide from Qadiani translation

01:23:55 – #33 Close up to Qadiani translation

01:24:14 – #34 Life After the Ahmadiyya

01:24:55 – #35 Into Islam

01:31:55 – #36 A Public Reversion

01:34:34 – #37 A Change of Heart

01:38:55 – #38 Love for All, Hatred for None

01:44:15 – #39 The Ahmadiyya Issue

01:44:44 – #40 Why is Ahmadiyya not Islam?

01:46:57 – #41 Fatwas

01:47:30 – #42 You Can’t Have it Both Ways

01:49:19 – #43 Takfeer

01:51:00 – #44 Fear and Loathing in Morden

01:54:10 – #45 Claim to be “Ahmad” of Qur’an

01:54:24 – #46 Ghulam Ahmad is not Ahmad

01:55:35 – #47 Where is the “Value Add”? (Reform and Strawmen)

01:57:16 – #48 Parallel Religion

01:58:00 – #49 Some questions

02:05:55 – #50 Whose Side? (Masroor shakes hands with Nazir-Ali)

02:06:45 – #51 Whose Side? (Shimon Peres)

02:07:30 – #52 Whose Side? (Andrew Brons)

02:07:50 – #53 What Next?

02:08:30 – #54 Censorship

02:13:00 – #55 Aims & Tactics

02:13:30 – #56 Further Information

02:14:00 – #57 Thank You


For further details on the talk and the hosts, see here.


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60 thoughts on “A Fracture in Belief

    • It was good but not as good as the youtube video(just kidding).You should have included that punjabi-english accent…lol

  1. Watched it on Youtube it was great

    May ALLAH bless you for ur efforts and in this struggle

  2. Is not this guy a fake? what was his shahadah when he was an Ahmadi? what was his conviction at that time when he recited the SHAHADAH?

    • I had to approve this comment for the following reason:

      Ohh, of course this guy is a fake, right? That’s the only logical answer!!! (sarcasm)

      I generally conduct myself above such comments, but that was too funny. Is it part of Ahmadiyya to just call everything a lie or fake? THE GUY IN THE VIDEO IS SHAHID FROM THIS BLOG! Even THEY know he was an Ahmadi-now-Muslim!

      • Faran what really amazes me is has anyone really read any of the works of the Promised Messiah (as) I mean like, look for example the Muhammdi begum, I have studied this argument for many years and either I can read or I have no logic or rational. But it is very clear firstly where was the chasing? Where was the accusation of Lust? Secondly there were conditions to the prophecy.
        1- If the father of Muhammdi Begum agreed to the marriage then Almighty Allah would not punish!
        2- also remember that this family was famous for abusing the holy Prophet (saw) in the most foul language, the Promised Messiah (as) did not want to marry this lady, but he was commanded by Almighty Allah (swt) to marry her, in hope that if this marriage took place perhaps the whole family would reform themselves .
        3- but the opposite happened and therefore the beginning of the prophecy begun with the death of her father, and so forth but as soon as this family started to repent and they were sincere the is punishment was cancelled.

        What always surprises me is if! Many people on this site have read this writing of the Promised Messiah (as) they would know this. But I am sure many cannot not read Urdu,
        With respect Bro Shahid he is only jumping on the band wagon of past and some present accusers of the Jamaat all he has said is really noting new! It has all being said, if I could I would explain in detail this prophecy and how it was fulfilled in every way. But I am sure it would not be allowed. This is my experience with these sites whenever an Ahmadi Muslim tries to put their point across with references it is not allowed.
        Love and peace

        • From our team, every has different specialties. Some argue against Ahmadiyya based on the writings of Mirza himself. Some about the Cult attitudes and mentality (control of thought, unquestioned allegiance, etc).

          My studies have been in traditional Islamic theology, not in opposing other groups. But, I studied it in sufficient detail that when someone comes to me and says “There are more prophets”, I say “No, and here’s why”.

          Having said that, I don’t understand what the Muhammadi Begum affair has to do with me. I didn’t bring that up. Anyone else want to take a stab at that one?

          • Farhan: I replied to you simply because you seem to have some piety, I also have graduated in Islamic Theology and Christian Theology, I appreciate the point made about the various specialties, mine being mostly Biblical Theology and Historical Theology but I have a passion for Tafseer of the Holy Qur’an and Hadith and Arabic.

            But surly if someone is going to listen to claims against someone is not correct first to study works of that person from his writings directly. This is what I have said too many Christians who attack the Holy Prophet (saw) have you read his life story or read the Holy Qur’an, in most cases they have not; I never criticize anyone until I have done full research. You said you have studied and I am sure you have, question will there be a Prophet after the Holy Prophet (saw) a yes or no would suffice.
            Love and peace

          • @ Ahmad

            MGAQ wanted to get PAID to write in support of Islam. He should have done it PRO-BONO. He should have defended Islam for the love of Allah. Instead………he wanted money.

            And…if you check the newspapers of the late 1870’s, MGAQ only attracted some hindus to debate. And they were enraged with MGAQ. MGAQ wasnt capable of Dawah. He was insane and looking to turn a profit.

            The few Hindus that he did debate were furious with the tactics of MGAQ. Subsequently they cursed Muhammad (saw). MGAQ is nothing more than an embarrassment to Islam. That is why the female Nawab of Bhopal refused to donate money to the cause of MGAQ. Instead she donated heavily to the Aligarh University and got the first ever mosque built in Englang, i.e. the Woking Mosque.

            And it should be noted, NO HINDUS or SIKHS converted to Islam based on the Braheen vol. 1–4. He did however attract the attention of Dr, Abdul Hakeem Khan, who later left the ‘A’ for greener pastures.

        • @ Ahmad

          You know nothing about the Muhammadi Begum saga. Why dont you type it up and send it to me? Or you can post your thoughts freely on the forum that we have provided.

          I would love to see your writings on this matter. And what do you think about death prophecies? Did Muhammad (saw) ever make one? Was he in the habit of making these? If so, tell us when and where.

          And these prophecies with conditions is getting old. It seems that every single thing that MGAQ said turned out wrong, and since he know that they would, he attached a trillion conditions so as to wiggle out when he lost.

          I could make prophecies of the same nature, I would write them with so many conditions that they would all be successful.

          And rememeber..it was the family members of MGAQ who snitched on him to the press about this ugly LUST that MGAQ had for Muhammadi.

          FYI: When you write your paper, make sure you address ALL the issues in the Muhammadi Begum saga. You need to search all the books on alislam.org and compile your data first.

          • @ Ahmad

            Do you even know who I am? I am researched Ahmadiyyat passionately for the last 5-6 years. I read about the ‘A’ daily. Not a day goes by in my life that I dont go to alislam.org and surf.

            Feel free to hit up the forums: http://thecult.info/forum/viewforum.php?f=4

            And feel free to email me: islamicknight101@gmail.com

            I have read more about Ahmadiyyat than you can imagine. And NO, I cant read urdu very well. But, it doesnt matter at all. What does that have to do with anything? I have learned more thru the forums and blogs than any Ahmadi can fathom.

            Try me…..ask me a question and I will break down the errors and con-job of MGAQ.

  3. @Syed Sulaiman bin Adnan

    Stop, watch the video and then post a sensible comment.

  4. The reaction from some people does not surprise me. Rather than try to refute any of the arguments presented in the talk, all they can do is question the belief of the individual presenting them.

    Its the same with Christians when they speak to reverts to Islam, they usually claim that the reverts never had the true ‘holy spirit’ like they had anyway!! A pathetic and cowardly argument. I suppose when people have no valid argument for their claims they can only believe in Ahmadiya in the same way as Christians believe in the Trinity -by having illogical blind faith.

    An Ahmadi who also listened to this talk thought the metamorphism Of Mirza into Mary and then into Eesa was ‘a beautiful thing’, that the incessant cursing was fine and clear shirk was acceptable. Rather than admit that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said some pretty shocking things, he just ignored them. Why support a man who had such a clearly flawed character? There is nothing to gain. Even Ahmadis admit he bought nothing new but he still wrote volumes upon volumes of forgettable literature. I just dont get it.

    Allah does indeed ‘Seal'(khatam) the hearts of people that He chooses not to guide. May Allah keep our hearts from being sealed and guide us all.

    • Abu Eemaan: I hope this is posted even I have saved it just in case it is not, just to show whenever an Ahmadi respond’s in most cases it is not allowed.

      Have you ever read any of his works! I have listened with full attention to his talks and I am sorry to say, there are myriad of faults due mostly not reading from the books of the Promised Messiah (as) if as I have already said I could present a response to all he has said, and I am was sure that Bro Shahid would allow the full response, I would do so! If I may present an example to demonstrate my point

      you said: An Ahmadi who also listened to this talk thought the metamorphism Of Mirza into Mary and then into Eesa was ‘a beautiful thing’, that the incessant cursing was fine and clear shirk was acceptable. your objection is that how can the Promised Messiah (as) be Mary and become Jesus and have you read the explanation of the Promised Messiah himself explaining this in most if not all don’t read his explanations they just trust what they are being told right, like bro Shahid, he is an ex Ahmadi he must know he must be telling the truth right!.

      Well that is not always the case, the Promised messiah (as) has explained clearly that these are all figurative talk Metaphors he will have similarities with Jesus and Mary in their pious qualities
      ‘In the third part of Braheen e Ahmadiyya, God had named me Mary and as apparent from it, I was nurtured in the qualities of Mary for two years. When a period of two years lapsed then, as stated on page 496 of the 4th volume of Braheen e Ahmadiyya, the soul of Jesus was infused in me as it was infused in Mary and, in an allegoric sense, I was stated to be pregnant. Thereafter, after many months not exceeding a period of ten months after this revelation, I was, through a revelation recorded at the end of Braheen e Ahmadiyya on page 556, named Jesus and hence I came to be the son of Mary.’
      And if you still can’t accept this type of language then please look at this “Hadhrat Jalal ud Din Rumirh, a noble sage of his time was also the founder of the Jalaali school of sufism. He discussed the concept of spiritual pregnancy at length and stated:

      ‘God confines free spirits into bodies and makes each body pregnant by the spirit. Each of us is a Messiah for the world. Rumi, [Hadhrat] Jalal ud Din Rumi. Miftah al Ulum, Daftar No. i, Pt. i, p. 55’
      waslaam Love and peace Ahmad

      • @ Ahmad

        You need help BRO. If you think that MGAQ was a sane person, and if you think that his writings about getting pregnant are OK….you need serious help.

        It seems like MGAQ plagurized from Rumi. Its nothing new. MGAQ plagurized most of his work anyways. Its all stolen. It seems to me that Rumi was saying that Muslims could pass thru stages of spirituality. I bet Rumi believed that prophethood had ended and that Esa (as) would physically return. Never in a trillion years could Rumi have thought that someone would steal his ideas and then claim to be Esa (as) (nauzobillah).

        • Rationalist: it would have been better for you to have said noting, anyhow Rationalist:
          Alhamdullah this show’s your absolute lack of Spiritual and Islamic theological knowledge and your failed ability to respond in a reasoned manner. Firstly you have totally ignored that fact that Maulana Rumi spoke a similar spiritual language as the Promised Messiah (as) long before the Promised Messiah (as) was born, yet he said he was impregnated with the same spirit of Jesus, would you care to call him, mad, Kaffir also.
          And what is so funny, is that you actually gave the answer! to the very point! I was making, stages of spirituality
          Your words!!“It seems like MGAQ plagurized from Rumi. Its nothing new. MGAQ plagurized most of his work anyways. Its all stolen. It seems to me that Rumi was saying that Muslims could pass thru stages of spirituality “ exactly Rationalist.
          See how almighty Allah (swt) catches those who try to insult the Promised Messiah (as)
          The accusation of plagiarism would you care to substantiate it!!! With ref: I can produce many, many, other Islamic scholars who lived hundreds of years before the Promised Messiah (as) was born who spoke the same spiritual language.


          Ahmad love and peace

          • First, produce the book wherein Rumi said these things. Then show us the rest of his beliefs. What were his beliefs on the return of Esa (as)??? What were his beliefs on the ending of prophethood? What were his beliefs on the mirraj?

            Was Rumi the prophet Muhammad (saw)? Was he Abu Bakr? Was he Umar? Farhan caught you people mis-representing Ibn Arabi. Who else will you misrepresent in your quest to elevate the Mirza family into prominence.

            And…did Rumi claim to be Esa (as) after he was spiritually pregnant? And why is it that Noorudin, Mahmud Ahmad, Nasir Ahmad, Tahir Ahmad and Masroor Ahmad havent become spiritually pregnant? Was Rumi greater than them?

      • So Rumi suggests everyone is a messiah, yet you claim only Mirza is. Do you pick and choose what to use as so-called ‘evidence’ for an indefensible statement of your leader? ‘Mirza was named Mary and nurtured in the qualities of Mary’. What gibberish.I dont know how any person can write that without smiling. Why are you bothering defending this man?
        Regarding his books, I havent read any of them much like many Ahmadis I have met. The reason being that Imaam Abu Haneefah said that any person that even enquires about the proofs of prophethood from a person leaves Islam. This is because it is clear beyond doubt that Muhammad(pbuh) is the last prophet. Until any person can claim Khaatam un Nabiyeen doesnt exist as a verse or can produce any explicit ayah that states another new prophet will arise then no muslim has any reason to read any of Mirza Ghulam Ahmads books. I suggest you stop reading his books and read the Quran.

        • Abu Eemaan

          Even though I am a great admirer of Imam Abu Hanifa but this, in truth shows your deficiency in Islamic knowledge do you know how many Islamic scholars who have written on the subject of prophet hood!
          At least you were truthful in that you HAVE NOT READ HIS BOOKS so therefore you don’t have the right to attack him!
          Alhamdulillah I read Holy Qur’an every day and perhaps you don’t, can you tell me Abu Eemaan, who are the two people mentioned in the Holy Qur’an that Almighty Allah (swt) say’s the believers should try become like in qualities ?
          On the issue of Khataam Nabeen, as already mentioned so many Classical Scholars have written on this including people like Ibn Kathir, Imam Raghib and so forth, but according to you, they should have not done!!
          Regarding Maulana Rumi and his spiritual language, which I must admit, seems to be beyond your spiritual ability to comprehend right now, and indeed most of you on the site, he is talking about spiritual stages of man, what is the role of a messiah but to call man to God, are we not supposed to call man to God!, but from time to time, Almighty Allah (swt) raises people like reformers who will possess Messiah qualities, that is what Rumi is talking about! Very simple really. And indeed that is what Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was explaining about him being called or given the title of Isa in Maryam and having the pious qualities of Maryam; therefore Rumi was also saying he was impregnated with the Messianic qualities also. All spiritual language is only given by Almighty Allah (swt) for people to understand and blessed are those are given it .
          Lastly remember it was the Holy Prophet (saw) who informed us that after him there would be another Prophet, without a new law, or religion and that he will be from among his ummah and he will possess the qualities of Isa ibn Maryum and he will be a Muslim and this is acknowledged by the Islamic scholars of the past before the advent of the Promise Messiah (as) I suggest you read more.

          Ahmad peace and love.

          • Ibn Khather , Imam Raghib believe in finality of Prophethood…. and as said Rumi work is not a simple as u ahmadie think…..Its like the same case what u ahmadies do with Ibn Arabi u dont look at his complete belief about Finality of prophethood.

            please visit this thread and you will have some idea how ur ahmadiyya Jammat misquote scholars:


            Imam Tahawi in his famus work AL-`AQIDA AL-TAHAWIYYA which is recognized by all four school of thought said:

            And that he is the Seal of the Prophets and the Imam of the godfearing and the most honored of all the messengers and the Beloved of the Lord of all the worlds.

            Every claim to prophethood after Him is falsehood and deceit.

            think please

          • @ Ahmad

            It seems that your entire premise is that YOU have all the knowledge and all the Muslims on this blog who have been studying Ahmadiyyat for the past 5-10 years have no knowledge at all. YOUR PREMISE IS WRONG.

            All of us read the Quran daily, we also perform salat daily. Its not just Ahmadis who read Salaat, the Ahmadi- mullah that told you that was echo-ing the same hatred that MGAQ began.

            You wrote about 4:70. We have refuted that Ahmadi-interpretation as well. Do we really have to go over that one again? Very quickly, After 1901 where and when did MGAQ use this verse a proof of his prophethood?

            Then you said that Muhammad (saw) prophecied the return of a prophet, that prophet being Esa (as). We agree with that. Its Ahmadis who say that OTHER prophets can come. In fact, it was Ansar Raza who is obsessed with this question, this guy wont debate any other topic with anyone. Also, Mahmud Ahmad wrote in 1916 that even 1000 prophets could come.

            In 1884, MGAQ fabricated this ‘pregnancy’ revelation. He wanted to claim to be Esa (as) and he set everything up for his claim. After 1891, he claimed that he was Esa (as) since like 1880, he just didnt understand what his God was telling him.

          • @Ahmad, I know the tactics of Ahmadis is to ‘admire’ all scholars but then disagree with them all on the issue of prophethood. Ive heard it many a time. As usual you cannot quote any explicit ayah thats states another prophet will come. Argument is closed and has been for centuries. Khaatam un Nabiyeen is clear proof for those who want to know the truth, its sufficient. The many explicit ahadith that state that prophethood has ended is sufficient for a sincere individual. The numerous statements from 1400 years of scholarship are enough for a sincere individual. Unless you can quote an explicit ayah or hadith I suggest you stop wasting your time replying and digging your hole even further.

  5. 1:01 – ‘I dont mind being corrected, I was corrected very heavily in 2004 by Allah (swt)’

    MashaAllah – dropped that line very well!

  6. Good work. Br. May Allah s.w.t. give you the strength and bless you and all those brothers and sisters who are trying to strive in the noble cause of educating people to the truth of Islam and the falsehood of Ahmadiyyat.

  7. This is the best talk of yours by far!! REAL TALK!! mashaAllah bro- you have inspired me and many others!!!! Great stuff!!!!

  8. mashAllah it was a brilliant talk, infact I used some of the arguments Shahid mentioned while talking to an Ahmadi today.

    What would also be good to mention in your next talk to muslim audiences is the explicit verses of the Quran that tell us that Muhammad(pbuh) is the Last prophet, some of the numerous ahadith that mention that no prophet will come after Muhammad(pbuh) and the consensus of the scholars of Islam quoting some famous scholars auch as Ibn Kathir, Imaam Abu Haneefa, Imaam Ghazali, At Tabari etc. This will inform the muslims why the misguidance of Ahmadiyya is such a serious issue, in that it takes a person outside the fold of Islam, due to rejection of an explicit ayah of the Quran.

    Maybe a similtude to use would be the example of a person who thinks its ok to gamble or drink alcohol. Clearly everyone would realise this person is not a muslim as he is rejecting something so clear and explicit from the Quran. The issue of the end of prophethood is also so clear within Islam ‘Khatam an Nabiyeen’ that if a person rejects the end of prophethood, by in essence rejecting clear Quranic injunction he also falls outside the fold of Islam.

    Bro Shahid may Allah reward you and may Allah guide many Ahmadis to Islam due to your efforts.

  9. Finally found the time to go through it.

    Wonderful stuff — it aggregates material from various sources, some of which was only available in Urdu sources before, and presents it well to a younger audience.

    Highly recommended.

    • All the supportive comments, what good does it to you? does it help to change
      your status? am not sure. You are not only fake but coward as well, otherwise
      you would have consent to my request to disclose your shahadah when you was Ahmadi muslim and your conviction when you recited the shahadah at that moment.

      Pls stop living with your false notion that you could emerged or be accepted as the leader in the muslim world by using Ahmadiyyat ticket, no doubt you may
      gained some milaged, that would only be temporary and short distant, in long distant you would vanish like the others who did the same, do you know why? coz among them there are so many religious figures who aspire to become leaders themselve, so their job is to banish each others, at certain time you may reach the peak in your endeavour at that moment you would be at loggerhead with those who have reach the peak as well, therefore, if you can’t
      get terms with each others, the only option is to seek each other destructions
      coz you have no convenant with Allah to honour, treasure and protect the
      leadership as required in Islam, believe me I have been seeing this vicious
      circle on and on in my live and I have no doubt you would suffer the same fate
      as well, disappear to nowhere with your frustration.

      • I’m debating with myself if I can take permission from these “YOU’RE A FAKE” comments to start accusing you of being a secret Islam-hater who is paid by the Ahmadis to write such comments.

        But I suppose it would be absurd to just go around calling people “fake”, right?

  10. I saw the 5 minute piece about the “rape threats” to your daughters.
    Wow! Do you know no bounds? Can you prove the threats? How do we know you didn’t make this up yourself? Knowing what a perpetual liar you are, its quite likely!

    Now you’re prostituting your own daughters in an effort to seek attention. Pathetic.

    • I saw a documentary on “persecution of Ahmadis” in the UK
      Wow! Do you know no bounds? Can you prove the threats? How do we know you didn’t make this up yourself? Knowing what a perpetual liar they are (200 million followers), its quite likely!

      Now you’re using your own victims in Pakistan to get attention. Pathetic.

    • @ Anjum

      You obviously havent read anything about the life and times of the Mirza. All he did was give people death threats when he lost debates. He always told people that their sons and daughters were cursed and he chased a married woman for over 10 years.

      Ahmadis, just like their leader, are very keen to issue death threats and what have you. The Ahmadi sentiment towards ghair-Ahmadis is simply that everything that they say our lies. An Ahmadi is brainwashed to censor out all data if it shows the Mirza to be a fake and a liar. I remember many many Ahmadis would always tell me to the effect that mullahs are liars. They never read MGAQ’s books themselves and remain stuck in the ‘A’.

      Stick around at this blog….you will begin to learn about the life and times of MGAQ….

  11. Shahid why don’t you disclose what was your shahadah and what was your conviction
    when you recited the shahadah at the time you was Ahmadi Muslim? otherwise am sorry to say that I’ve to stand firm with by believe that you are a fake.

    • What a pathetic argument. Only Allah knows the hearts of men. How do I know you actually believe in what you say? To be frank I find it hard to believe anyone can be an Ahmadi with conviction but people are able to fool themselves into believing anything, even the pregnancy of a man. Wake up, stop blaming the messenger and instead try to answer some of the arguments raised in the talk. If you cannot then how anyone can have any conviction in Ahmadiya is beyond me.

  12. @Anjam Khalid and Syed Sulaiman bin Adnan.
    Both of you cannot see the wood for the trees. You both seem to be “rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic” engaging in futile or pointless activity.
    Anjam, I was there when Shahid received those serious and disgusting threaths upon his daughters. I was Ahmadi at the time. Does that surprise you? Shahid kept an Ahmadi as a friend. He has said many times before he does not hate Ahmadies, his mother and a much loved uncle are Ahmadies.
    Such were his concerns about the threats I took them to the president of the North London Jamaat. This encounter was to prove totally shocking. Many of Shahids personal and family details were disclosed to me. These details would have been told in confidence to the president and his wife whilst he was an Ahmadi. They are private and are meant to be confidential. They had attributed his reversion to Islam as him being mentally unstable. His personal life was deemed as being deviant. Keeping his company would impact hugely on my moral character and would lead me to a downward spiral.

    I was told in no uncertain terms if I continued seeing Shahid, I would be thrown from the Jamaat and that I would be no longer welcome in their house. Previously they had said I was like a son to them. Imagine my shock! Is that what is meant by the term “Love for All Hatred for None”.

  13. If the threats are indeed real, then obviously they are worthy of condemnation.

    But perhaps, unknown to him, they were issued by one of Shahid’s staunch anti-Ahmadiyya associates, knowing that publicizing them would be unfavorable for the Jamaat.

    It would also be fruitful for Br. Shahid to reflect on the fact that as the threats state, some of his co-religionists would indeed think nothing of raping Qadiani girls.

    • I wish you would apply that line of thinking to your own community.

      If threats against Ahmadis in the UK are real, then they are obviously worthy of condemnation. But perhaps they are are issued by staunch anti-Islamic Ahmadis who just want to discredit the Muslims and usurp the positions of representation.

      I think we can all agree that threats and actions against anyone are unacceptable and should be universally condemned.

  14. NorthLondon Revert

    Firstly if the confidential details of his private and personal life were being disclosed by anyone it is wrong. I know Shahid sb, and his family and about the events that led up to his departure, but this was not through being told by officer bearers but through gossip, but this does not mean all his has said about the Promised Messiah (as) is correct! and you also.
    It is very obvious that both of you and other’s had very little Islamic knowledge ( I say this with respect), but now you and shahid are bent on saying things which are not correct, if you left Islam because of doctrine then that’s fine! that is your choice! but if you left for other reasons and what to attack this Jamaat well I am afraid in the end it is Almighty Allah (swt) who will respond, as already mentioned any Ahmadi who claims to follow the Holy Prophet (saw) and his Mahdi the Promised Messiah (as) should never resort to violence or abuse the Promised Messiah (as) himself has instructed his jamaat in this matter. But you and Shahid are painting all Ahmadi’s with same brush and that is wrong, this treat towards his daughters is not acceptable at all but whoever has done this are not fir to call themselves Ahmadi Muslims or even Just Muslim, but let tell I know of a family who had to leave Pakistan because they were told if they all their daughters would be raped! And this is a true fact, but I don’t hold all the Muslims to blame for this but there are elements of radical Muslims who are bent on destroying Ahmadiyyat True Islam but they are failing.
    Love and peace

    • @ Ahmad

      Why dont you follow the sunnah of your MGAQ and issue a 1000 curses everytime someone gets you mad? Why dont you tell us that we r going to die with a trillion conditions attached. Why dont you give prophecies about sons?

      You need to keep reading. I dont think you have read enough.
      Do you have any questions for me?

      • Rationalist : Indeed it is you who is becoming mad, not me, I don’t get perplexed at all, as I know I am in the truth, as for the advise for reading more, well I am quite sure I have read much more then you! not only on the doctrine of Ahmdiyyat but of Islam and Religion in general. Perhaps it is you, who needs to go back to basics. As for do I have any question for you well yes, “can you read”

        waslaam and peace and love


        • Do you even know what book the 1000 curses comes from? What about the other cursing of MGAQ? What about the investigation of sex crimes of Mahmud Ahmad in 1907? Do you know about that? Its your Lahori brothers who shared that with us.

          Its amazing that you claim to have read the books of Ghulam yet you consider him to be anything but a fraud.

          Answer this question: Why was MGAQ asking for money to defend Islam? Why didnt he just do it for free?

          • Rationalist:

            I Know all the accusations, What about the investigation of sex crimes of Mahmud Ahmad in 1907? Do you know about that? Its your Lahori brothers who shared that with us. ”

            well, well, is that the best you can do!!!!! the answer is so obvious but hay! you read the books right? it was the Lahoris to started this rumor, gosip, and if you have the books tell what did the Promised Messiah (as) do! and what was the out come!!!


            waslaam peace and Love

          • @ Ahmad

            Come to the forum. We can discuss off-topic things there. Dont be shy.

  15. That is why the female Nawab of Bhopal refused to donate money to the cause of MGAQ. Instead she donated heavily to the Aligarh University and got the first ever mosque built in Englang, i.e. the Woking Mosque.

    immm would care to tell everyone who bulit this mosque and which community built it and which Imam offered prayers there. and I would suggest you re look at the historical facts about how the Promised Messiah (as) defended Islam, I will present a list of renowned Islamic scholars of that time who praised him for his work, and called upon people to support him financially to defend Islam.

    I must admit Rationalist the more I read your reply’s I can see you were not a well informed or educated Ahmadi on the doctrines of Ahmadiyyat.

    Ahmad peace and love

    • Yes he started and claimed to be defender of Islam and it is natural thing that other muslim supported him.

      Like Rashid Khalifah he was praised by none other than Sheikh Ahmad Deedat (RA)

      We Gohar Shahi was considered great sufi by people

      so trust me these things are not the proofs at all

    • Your messiah didnt defend Islam at all. He embarrased Islam in front of our Hindu and Sikh brothers. MGAQ was like 100 miles from Amritsar, which is the capitol of Sikhism, not one Sikh embraced Islam through his efforts.

      And you keep saying that my knowledge is limited. The only reason that you say that is because you are brainwashed by the Mirza family to believe that all Muslims are a group of underdeveloped Neanderthols. You people have been cursing Islam circa 1891 and embarrasing Islam circa the 1870’s.

      Muhammad Hussain Batalvi only gave MGAQ a good review because MGAQ had ran an advertisement in the Ishaat us Sunnah in May 1879 (see Dard, pg. 90), to the effect that MGAQ was planning on publishing a book in support of Islam, also, they were friends growing up in the Punjab. They had some of the same tutors. In fact, in 1878 or so, MGAQ was very sick with dysentry and Batalvi’s dad went to Qadian to help him (see Dard, page 76).

      Have you ever read Dard?

  16. Rationalist :  Response:
    Hadhrat Jalal ud Din Rumirh, a noble sage of his time was also the founder of the Jalaali school of sufism. He discussed the concept of spiritual pregnancy at length and stated:
    ‘God confines free spirits into bodies and makes each body pregnant by the spirit. Each of us is a Messiah for the world.'(Maulana Rumi, [Hadhrat] Jalal ud Din Rumi. Miftah al Ulum, Daftar No. i, Pt. i, p. 55 )

    ‘I am Jesus, but whoever receives life from my breath lives forever. Those who were brought to life by Jesus dies, but fortunate are they who entrusted their lives to this Jesus.(Maulana Rumi, [Hadhrat] Jalal ud Din. Miftah al Ulum, vol. 1, p. 11
    The fact is you missed the point the promised Messiah (as) was talking about his
    spiritual stages, and therefore this in line with Islaimc teaching, and Maulana Rumi (rh) also demonstrates this. And it would seem you are taken back by this, are you saying we should not consider Maulana Rumi a source of knowledge?

    Farhan caught you people mis-representing Ibn Arabi. I am asuming you can read Arabic? if so read Ibn Arabi your self and come back to me! Farhan caught nobody out, his booklet ” with love to Ahmadi’s” which I have read and which a response in book form is currently being completed but I my self have read his argument and there is no bases to it, but then you need to be able to read Arabic.

    Ahmad love and peace

    • @ Ahmad

      After reviewing the data that you have presented:

      Rumi was a sufi. It seems that he was talking about spiritual stages. However, MGAQ talked about actually becoming Maryam (may allah be pleased with her) and then going thru a 10 month pregnancy, then giving birth to Esa (as) (nauzobillah). Rumi never used this metaphoric language in this manner at all.

      You still havent answered…what were the beliefs of Rumi in terms of the physical return of Esa (as)?? What about the ending of prophethood? What about the FACT that Muhammad (saw) physically went on Mirraaaj?

      You can re-define the words of MGAQ as you wish. The Lahoris consider MGAQ’s views on the birth of Esa (as) as a trivial pursuit, they claim that Ahmadis can differ on that. Mahmud Ahmad stated that Ahmadis can differ on the meanings of the Ismuhu Ahmad verse.

      As a matter of research. 99.9% of Islamic scholars believed that Esa (as) would physically NUZOOL, they also believed that prophethood had ended. If you wish to accredit these scholars you are forced to ascribe to the consensus of opinion.

      Ahmadis even present the views of Imam maliki in their quest to make MGAQ into Esa (as) (nauzobillah). They write that even Imam Maliki believed in the death of Esa (as), however, they dont mention that even though he believed in the death of Esa (as) he still believed in the physical NUZOOL of Esa (as).

      And….are you calling Farhan a liar? Are you calling his research as lacking?

      • Rationalist:
        your words
        they dont mention that even though he believed in the death of Esa (as) he still believed in the physical NUZOOL of Esa (as).

        point proven




        peace and Love

        • This post is about a video. Please stick to the subject. It’s typical that instead of discussing any of the video, you want to talk about ISA (as). Your group is obsessed with Isa (as). Anyone would think you were Christians.

          We Muslims don’t obsess about Isa (as). We choose to focus on Rasulullah (saw)

          • Bro Shahid Mirza Ghulam himself said that ESA(AS) life and death is a non issue. and not something for which we go on debating and fighting people….

            But ahmadies and Mirza Ghulam himself ignore that statement of his 🙂

          • Shahid sb
            it is Rationalist who is on this subject
            not me but I will answer or is it just because I am Ahmadi that you feel, you rebuke me and not your own these are Rationalist words

            Then you said that Muhammad (saw) prophecied the return of a prophet, that prophet being Esa (as). We agree with that. Its Ahmadis who say that OTHER prophets can come. In fact, it was Ansar Raza who is obsessed with this question, this guy wont debate any other topic with anyone. Also, Mahmud Ahmad wrote in 1916 that even 1000 prophets could come.

            In 1884, MGAQ fabricated this ‘pregnancy’ revelation. He wanted to claim to be Esa (as) and he set everything up for his claim. After 1891, he claimed that he was Esa (as) since like 1880, he just didnt understand what his God was telling him.
            Am I not allowed respond?

            Ahmad love and peace

          • I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you’re saying, but if you’re concerned about my fairness, I’d remind you that the team here routinely deletes posts by Muslims without explanation. Sometimes we delete each others’ comments! Some of my comments end up in the trash too. 🙂

            You don’t see us freaking out about it though, so please remember, you are a guest here, but do stay on the topic. Address the video. Please.


  17. Even if I was an Ahmadi, I would not use Ibn ‘Arabi’s quotation as an argument. I don’t think most people are going to understand this, but let me give it a shot anyways..,.

    Islam changed the meanings of some sorts. For example, the word kaafir does not mean ‘disbeliever’, it means ‘one who covers up’. The idea is that a kaafir covers up a truth that his heart inherently knows. Likewise, the word ‘nabi’ linguistically does not mean ‘prophet’, it means ‘news bringer’. But the idea is that a Nabi brings news from the unseen world.

    Another foundational concept is the hadith about “True dreams”. The Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم said that prophethood is composed of different components. Of those components, all have been terminated except 1: True Dreams. True dreams is the vehicle by which a person gains news from the unseen world.

    If a person has a True Dream, he gains News from the unseen. A person with new information from the unseen world is a Nabi. Therefore, there can be more Nabis (keep reading).

    Using this linguistic (literal) definition of Nabis, there are thousands of Nabis. There are even Nabis from other religions. Even i’m a Nabi too 🙂

    So, how do you differentiate between this kind of “general Nabi” and Nabis in the sense of the Prophets we think of? One key thing that a dream can never do is change Shari’ah. That’s why when ‘Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani had a vision saying “Everything is lawful for you now (ie, a change)” he said “Shut up you enemy of Allah!” He knew the Shari’ah was intact. Likewise, in Surah al-Ma’idah, Allah speaks about the sealing of the Shari’ah – its done, no more. So, per Ibn ‘Arabi, he uses the qualification of bringing forth a new Shari’ah as criteria to differentiate. A non-law-bearing nabi could be anyone – even a Hindu who receives guidance from God in his dreams. A law-bearing Nabi is a prophet like Musa, ‘Esa, Ibrahim, Yusuf, etc عليهم السلام.

    There’s another point of distinction – Do all prophets bring laws?
    In Islam, there are mandatory beliefs and things that are reasoned and theorized that are not mandatory. For example, even though MOST Muslims say it was Isma’eel عليه السلام who was going to be sacrificed, the majority of early Muslims said it was Ishaaq عليه السلام. Who was it? It doesn’t matter, both are theories and valid opinions – its not a mandatory belief.

    Likewise, there is a theory that there are some prophets who brought new laws and others who didn’t. This isn’t a major thing, but its a theory out there. Now, obviously Ibn ‘Arabi didn’t hold this view, because according to him one of the parts of prophethood is bringing new laws – so he said ALL prophets were “law-bearing”. But, if you don’t know that, and you just take that 1 isolated quote, it seems to give credibility to the Ahmadi standpoint.

    But look, in short, when Ibn ‘Arabi was talking about non-law-bearing nabis, he was not talking about literal nabis in the sense of a normal prophet. He was speaking of people who received inspirations, ilhaam, true dreams, etc. When he was talking about law-bearing nabis, he was referring to PROPHETS. And he himself says there are no more prophets in several different ways and locations in his book.

    Ibn ‘Arabi isn’t an easy read. Its like reading a PhD in Chemistry and not knowing how to Oxidation-Reduction works. But, people who want to believe in Ahmadiyya will take anything that appeals to their faith and run with it.

    Whew, I’m done…

  18. Shahid sb Please!!!” You don’t see us freaking out about it though” what I was trying to convey to you! was I am not the one! who is staying on the subject of Isa (as) supposed lifting to the Asamaah” I was discussing Muhammdi Begum which of course is on your video. they only freaking out was Rationalist.

    Love and Peace

    • @ Ahmad

      In the future…stick to the topic of discussion. If you wish to open random threads and discuss random ideas inside the ‘A’…come over to the forum.

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