Questions about Pigott for Ataul Mujib Rashid

Ahmadiyya as a whole has been speechless on John Hugh Smyth-Pigott for the last 18 months or so. Whatever they have said has been from our sources, including the three-page document that the Qadianis published in Ahmadiyya Gazette Canada.

Last week on Rah-e-Huda, their senior-most Maulvi, Ataul Mujib Rashid, ducked a question from a German caller asking about Pigott, saying something about ‘historical context’ and about devoting a full programme to this issue. Is it that complicated? However, we welcome the Ahmadiyya opening up to their followers.

Since the issue is so complicated (!), can we please request our readers to to pose some questions for Ataul Mujib. After the Qadianis do a show on Pigott as they have promised, we will follow it up with a video insha Allah to see if the answers were in good faith so that Ahmadis can make up their minds.

http://thecult.info/blog/2010/03/27/john-hugh-smyth-pigott/
http://wiki.qern.org/mirza-ghulam-ahmad/contemporaries/john-hugh-smyth-pigott

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108 thoughts on “Questions about Pigott for Ataul Mujib Rashid

  1. excuses that they give or can give are as follows:

    1. He repented (there is no proof of it other than they will say he went to jungle and didnt reply etc)
    2. Death was Metaphorical (its an old excuses and ahmadies who are really seeking truth knows thats its nothing but excuse)
    3. The letter is fake again they have no proof infact they have published it.
    4. Wrong translation by someone again they have to assume that
    5. MGA got the prophecy interpretation wrong (but then they have to answer that why MGA set the standards that to judge him we have to look at his prophecies

    • Primarily, I think it is amusing that on the one hand MGAQ
      told Ahmadis to obey the British govt and what not, but then he
      himself failed to live up to his own advice as he continued to
      issue death threats even after the “whites” had ordered him to
      refrain from such behavior. Secondarily, everytime his prophecies
      failed he gave some standard answer that the person repented or
      didnt fullfil the conditions of the death threat. To my punjabee
      brethren: Come to Islam

    • 1) Proof from newspapers in 1909 he didn’t repent.
      2) It what sense? I don’t see how they can use the metaphorical argument.
      3) The Canadian Gazzete confirmed its authenticity
      4) He mentions Pigott dying on more than one occasion in the warning and its mentioned in newspapers too so that destroys that theory.
      5) Regarding revelation MGA said he is “not permitted to persist in error and Divine mercy soon points out for me the way to its true interpretation”. At no point did he mention Pigott again in the sense “it doens’t mean he will die before me it actually means…”.

      All the arguments are weak, the only thing they will try and do is attack the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and say he didn’t understand prophecies correctly using the Hajj one as their main example. The approach they use is not only offensive but absolutely ridiculous, as the whole premise of a prophecy is that it is to be fulfilled regardless of interpretation. In other words they should be asking when Allah (SWT) told the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) that he will perform Hajj, did it happen? Yes it did. This is the fact they keep ignoring when trying to find fault in the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW). But they can’t say the same for MGA, his prophecy failed that’s the bottom line. Yalesh didn’t correct his interpretation because Yalesh too thought Pigott would die first or repent and he did neither. Yalesh doesn’t know a lot.

  2. It’s funny that people think Mirza was a loyal citizen of the British. He was anything but. He even broke many of their laws, and was taken to court. although I am not 100% certain, but I believe he was also behind the murder of the Arya preacher, Lekh Ram. He probably hired an assassin to do the job.

    It’s interesting that one of the Maulwis at the time, Muhammad Hussain Batalwi, tried to warn the government to beware of “Mahdi” claimants, because their followers are known to do crazy things, and he gave the example of the so called “Mahdi” that came from Sudan and led a rebellion against the British and Egyptians there.

  3. Here is a very good reference for the world to archive.

    Review of Religions, June 1911, Page 250
    “The Way to Real Happiness” By M. Basharat Ahmad
    http://www.aaiil.org/text/articles/reviewofreligions/raw/reviewreligionsenglish1911.pdf

    “…..Quite recently the Christian Europe and the New World were shaken by the arrogant pretensions of Mr. Piggot and Dr. Dowie. Both of these false pretenders soon raised a tempest in the teapot. One claimed to be God himself, and the other, rather less arrogant claimed to be the fore-runner of Christ. At once wicked and blasphemous were their pretensions, the Prophet of India, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, could not let them alone. He took time by the forelock and challenged the false claimants to make good their pretensions or prepare to die. The bubbles speedily burst and hubbub instantaneously sudsided. Disgrace overtook both and sent one to the grave unregretted, and the other to the fathomless abyss of oblivion. It served them right and the world was well rid of them. Thus we saw with these very eyes how faithfully God sided with his righteous servants. Nature in all its totality was placed at his service and success attended him wherever he turned his face.”

    • Yes I do.

      The above reference that I posted proves that Ahmadis considered the fate of Piggot as decided by MGAQ. When in reality it didnt fulfill the conditions that MGAQ had laid out. This prophecy turned into the basic “adjust-and-re-explain-prophecy”

      Oh Allah…when will Ahmadis see the light.

  4. @ The Awareness Team

    Can someone make a note that NO AHMADI has responded to the thread. Not even the LAM have the courage to joust on this topic. The piggot story can lead into other stories of “death threats” and “promised sons” and “promised virgins”.

    You see…MGAQ claimed to be a Mujadid…then he got married to his 2nd wife…she bore him daughters for the first 4 years of marriage. MGAQ wanted sons…he began to lust after Muhammadi begum..he even marketed this marriage as a “business-proposal”, MGAQ said that the off-spring of him and Muhammadi Begum would inherit the fraud that MGAQ was operating.

    Plan B was established when Mahmud Ahmad was born in Jan 1889, a few months later the Ahmadiyya community was established. MGAQ continued issuing death threats whenever he flew into a rage. It got sooo bad that the British govt. intervened with this SICKO and ordered him to stop, for the sake of peace in the region.

    MGAQ didnt listen…he took his “death-threats” overseas.

    I pray that Masroor Ahmad will shut down Ahmadiyyat and return to Islam. Masroor knows that this is a fraud, he knows it. He doesnt even know Islam, Im sure he writes down verses of the Quran on his left hand so he doesnt forget.

    • Where did he repent? Are you guys deluded?

      Why did Kate Barlow (Pigotts grandaughter) say that they left the grave open because the expected him to rise?

      Why did his followers say at his funeral that their Messiah lives forever?

      Why did Pigott say in 1909, a year after MGA died that he is God?

      There isn’t a shred of evidence that he repented, on the contrary, everything supports the fact that he continued believing and telling his followers that he was God after MGA died. Yet you deny this, why? Fear Allah (SWT).

      • Also you must keep in the mind and important point

        did Piggot repeat his this claim of being GOD in public after 1902 . ?

        did not he restricted himself to his place of abode ?

        if he considered himself GOD , then what was the fear in his heart that lead to this act of seclusion ?

        • If he has repented then
          why MGA didnt even know about it?
          why he never said that?

          Or did Pigott tell u personally?

        • Since when was the condition that you must not repeat your claim in public? The threat of the prophecy was either you repent from claiming you’re God or die within the lifetime of MGA. He didn’t repent and continued claiming he was God and he didn’t die within the lifetime of MGA. END OF.

          • ahmadis are asking for proof that he believed he was god after 1908. thecult is asking for proof that he repented. both groups are asking for proof however thecult has more weight because they do have some sort of evidence. maybe not proof that meets the requirements of devout ahmadis (they can still find room to be reasonably sceptical) but at least it’s not nothing (like the amount of evidence ahmadis have as proof of pigott’s repentance).

            i also think thecult has less need to give proof because it’s easier to assume that he did not change than he did as ahmadis are saying. because the assumption of him having changed, repented and have that tauba accepted by allah seems far fetched for an ex-“god”. first there needs to be proof where he says he is not god, then proof where he says “i was dumb for saying i was god” and the acceptance from allah is something we can’t see.

          • Muslim First,

            The Ahmadiyya FUD (fear,uncertainty,doubt) machine will not be content until there were signed and notarised statements by Pigott on every single day saying ‘I am God’.

            To the cultee, MGA is right, and all other evidence must be twisted or denied to accomplish that. For them, the conclusion is there – evidence should support it. For normal people, evidence leads to conclusion.

          • Brother Tahir,

            Yalash and his messenger, MGA, are so weak that they require the continued negative to prove their ‘prophecy’, not the positive statement that was required.

            So, if an employer asks an employee for an apology because he insulted him, he wants a positive act done, and will never be satisfied until the person apologises. If the employee keeps behaving in the same way, that means he does not apologise. He does not need to keep repeating the insult.

            Alas, Ahmadiyya are playing old tricks of MGA, who wanted Atham to swear (qasam) when Atham kept insisting that his faith does not allow that and you are asking the impossible.

            These are the twigs on which this cult is based.

    • Are you joking, your whole theory was based on Pigott accepting some challenge, in the letter there is no single mention of accepting a challenge, it is quite straightforward, MGA says to Pigott, either repent and stop making your claim that you are God or prepare to die. It doesn’t say do you accept this, it says I am warning you to repent or die. How do you guys get by when you deny facts?

      • So I guess if the prophecy had ‘come true’ you would have accepted Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet of God?

        • Daud please provide it to be true first.
          coz right now its clear that it failed badly like many other prophecies of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

          • I believe in finality of Prophethood like all muslim
            so whats your argument ?

            but thing for MGA is proven wrong from his prophecies as well(his own set standards)

        • Are you serious? If a Hindu said to a Christian which ever one of us dies first is false and the survivor is true, would you accept one of them? Please study logic before asking such questions. Now had Pigott died within the life-time of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad I would happily have said the prophecy went in the favour of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Only an idiot would say he is truthful in his claim of being the Messiah based solely on this 50-50 prophecy. Regardless the fact is it didn’t go in his favour and he said should this be the case then he is not from God nor is he the Messiah. Fear Allah (SWT) and return to Islam.

        • you are right, even if the events occured as mirza predicted
          I still wouldnt believe him
          even if i saw him in my own life with my own eyes flying through the sky on a carpet i would still not believe him
          he was a dajjal
          and we have sold our selves to our Master Muhammed (saw)

  5. P.S. MGA says in Malfoozat Volume 4 on the 11th of November 1902 that Dajjal was to claim prophethood and Godhood and this happened with Pigott i.e. he claimed to be God implying he is Dajjal. Do you not see the irony that the second coming of Hazrat Isa (AS) was to destroy Dajjal yet your Messiah died before Dajjal did… Strange times.

  6. “Where did he repent? Are you guys deluded?”

    No, not deluded at all. We embrace the Truth. Are you deluded? He doesn’t necessarily need to say ” I repent, I repent.” His actions, his years after 1902, till his death speak to his repentance. He no longer proclaimed to be God.

    Why did Kate Barlow (Pigotts grandaughter) say that they left the grave open because the expected him to rise?

    So that his followers could visually, literally see his body rot..and it becomes clear to the world that no Messiah is gonna come back from the ground and fly up. I pretty sure 6 months after he was buried raised up, no one came to visit him.

    There isn’t a shred of evidence that he repented, on the contrary, everything supports the fact that he continued believing and telling his followers that he was God after MGA died. Yet you deny this, why? Fear Allah (SWT).

    Right! His statements no longer claiming to be God, and later moving on to Messiah, and then being exposed by his own people, and the Church are not signs of repentance.


    [admin] violent statements and abuse of Islam not allowed[/admin]

    • “He doesn’t necessarily need to say ” I repent, I repent.” His actions, his years after 1902, till his death speak to his repentance. He no longer proclaimed to be God.”

      You are right which is why the Prophet SAAWS did istighfaar all the time? Which is why we are commanded to SAY it out loud after salah 30 times? Do you even know Islam? You have to say it, ceasing some sinful act is NOT enough, you have to seek forgiveness constantly. There is no proof for that but futhermore there is proove AGAINST.

      “Why did Kate Barlow (Pigotts grandaughter) say that they left the grave open because the expected him to rise?”

      Profve it. Even if this happened it shows the will of him being done. It doesn’t change the fact that mirza was wrong. Face it. Grave open or close makes no difference.

      “Brother, this is a Jamaat protected by the Allah. Humans can pose no danger to it. You have bullets, we will open our chests for them, but never renounce what we have found to the Truth.”

      What empty meaningless words. Keep reassuring yourself. The proof that your sect is a tiny set of pujabi people who are stuck in a social circle is proof enough for us. Your sect has been demolished by the 3ulema, sorry lad.

      “At first, I thought WoW you guys really have some solid points, but by the Grace of Allah, as I researched I found your lies to be of the same caliber as those presented by non-believers against our Beloved Prophet (SAW).”

      What did oyu learn?. 😉

      “Those of you who have left the Jamaat, its apparent from this blog that you had issues with the organization of the Jamaat.”

      yes all the kufr, shirk, and lying did it.

      “By God, ponder over yourselves first. Are you perfect?”
      No like mirza we are flawed, but he did kufr. We dont. the rest of your comments are meaningless and are only a mask without a face behind it.

    • Khalim has basically agreed that jammat is assuming that he REPENTED

      Ignoring the statement which Pigott gave when he was defrocked that I am GOD and I dont care what other says 🙂

    • He said in 1909 that he was GOD. Then you wonder why I ask if you’re deluded. This is after MGA died, anything that happens after this is not relevant, the prophecy has already failed. Stop with the usual ad hominem approach, it’s boring.

    • “He doesn’t necessarily need to say ” I repent, I repent.” His actions, his years after 1902, till his death speak to his repentance. He no longer proclaimed to be God.”

      “I am God, it does not matter what they do.”
      – Pigott, 1909, a full year after Mirza Ghulam died.

      If you ask me, claiming to be God doesn’t sound like repentance. But who knows, I’m just a deluded Mullah.

      • Ahmadi says: Go back to your cave with your lies Mullah! He said that on the outside to carry forward his pretence, but spiritually he had repented! That’s correct, in his heart! Everything he said after the warning was an act, he was genuinely terrified and he repented! You ignorant Mullahs are blind!

        Mullah says: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself prophecised that Pigott would not repent i.e. leaving the only other option for the prophecy to succeed, the death of Pigott before MGA.

        Ahmadi says: Urr… umm… he went on the wrong path and thus he spirtually died! In your face Mullah! We win! Haha!

        Mullah says: That would indicate he was spiritually alive and on the right path prior to spiritually dying which the facts again do not support.

        Ahmadi says: You Mullah *Insert ad hominem*

        Brother Farhan, I think you’ll find Ahmadis imply they have knowledge of the unseen.

        • ahahahaha! ”spiritually died”…I am laughing, nervously, because the sad fact is, I wouldn’t put it past any of them!!!!!

      • how much you have changed Farhan
        a year ago when i aksed about one hadith and asked for your comments
        you said

        ===========================
        Farhan says:
        February 3, 2010 at 9:08 am
        My view? Since when does my “view” matter on Hadith?

        We don’t read Hadith like the newspaper. We must know:
        A) When it was said
        B) Why it was said
        C) Where it was said
        D) To whom it was said to
        E) The relationship with any other ahadith
        G) In what tone of voice was it said
        etc, etc, etc
        ==============================

        today the same answer to you

        A) When it was said ( ok 1909)

        C) Where it was said .. ( answer it ?)

        D) To whom it was said to ( to whom it was said ? )

        in etc etc

        give following answer as well.

        1) who heard it , and who quoted his statement ?

        2) when this quotation was first published.

        etc etc

        • I didnt knew that u considered Pigott statements to be Hadith Khalid.

          nice that u agree that in 1909 he claimed to be GOD, I think you should think about it now.

    • In 1902, he claimed to be ‘Messiah’, sent of God and coming back of Jesus. Jesus is ‘God’ in Christian theology. He did not retract this claim until he died.

      All observers saw the manifestation of this claim in 1904, 1905 (when the ‘new Messiah’ or ‘new God’) was born — Pigott’s child. Pigott’s secretary was forced to resign from the board of a company due to the birth of this ‘new God’. In 1907, 1909 all the way to his death and his obituaries, he was constant.

      The brilliant thing is that by the time of MGA’s prophecy in late 1902, he had already left London for his new headquarters. So the opposition to his claim was before MGA prophecy and the defrocking was after MGA’s death. Between 1902 and 1908, Pigott lived a constant life.

    • lol
      you guys are funny
      if his followers who knew his beliefs did not think that he had repented and left his grave open thinking he would rise from it,
      how have you read his mind and said he repented
      when he was defrocked he still said he was God.
      you people are brainwashed

  7. Fresh-Baked Lies
    =========

    In other cases, the Ahmadiyya (including the Lahoris) rely on the lies and excuses of their founder, or Mirza Mahmud. In this case, they are having to make fresh lies. Like a marketing company, they have floated at least 3 different lies in the last 18 months since Pigott was re-discovered, and each time people have not bought it.

    So, in this show, the host appeared to be tasked with the dirty work:

    AND THEY DID NOT EVEN READ OUT THE FULL ENTRY FROM TADHKIRAH WHICH SAYS THAT MGA BELIEVED THAT PIGOTT WILL NOT REPENT.

    1. Ataul Mujib Rashid, who promised to talk about Pigott, did not show up. It appears that he doesn’t want to put his name to lies in this age. After all, his father was a Muslim Aalim before he went Qadiani. So, in addition to the irrelevant stuff about his house etc., there was a statement on the phone from Pakistan read from a prepared document. Is that discussing? That is ‘escaping’!

    2. They were not very clear and what they were trying to say, but the lying angle of the Qadianis now seems to be that he backed off from his claim of being God, showing chosen letters. Again, like they do with Arabic words to Urdu audience, they are using a terminology that Urdu-speakers will get confused on. Pigott’s claim of being ‘God’ was not ‘God the Father’, but rather the Messiah, who is a God in Christian terms, and part of the Trinity.

    Any person who claims to be the Christian Messiah — return of Jesus — is automatically God under mainstream Christian theology.

    3. They ignored EVERY newspaper references where he continues to claim the same thing at every opportunity. This is high-scale half-baked deception, but at least it is on video now 🙂

    The purpose of MTA is to keep the Urdu speakers confused and attached. The risks and rewards have been calculated.

    4. We have found some additional references from Al-Badr and Al-Hakm and will be doing a video soon insha Allah — in Urdu.

    • “AND THEY DID NOT EVEN READ OUT THE FULL ENTRY FROM TADHKIRAH WHICH SAYS THAT MGA BELIEVED THAT PIGOTT WILL NOT REPENT.”

      You have no proof of this. The Nov 1902 entry on this issue does not state that Hadhrat Masih Mau’ud (as) believed that he will not repent.
      [admin] please do not use strong words on the blog[/admin]
      . All he says is that there are two possible meanings of the Arabic revelation: (1) Pigott’s state is not good (2) He would not repent.

      [admin]irrelevant[/admin]

      • You’re digging up excuses for the obvious.

        All you’ve done is prove that one of Mirza’s prophecies is completely meaningless (ie, it has one of many meanings…which one is it?). You still haven’t eliminated the OTHER prophecy where Mirza said Pigott would die first.

        If you try to claim “silence repentence”, the fact remains that there is historical evidence documenting that Pigott continued to claim to God, even after Mirza died. This eliminates the “silent repentance” claim.

        You haven’t a shrap of evidence that Pigott repented. Your response is a standard Argument from Silence fallacy.

        Both Smyth-Pigott and Mirza were false.

          • Come on Sultan! Please, please, please use your God given intelligence and put 2 and 2 together and get 4!!
            You are better than this and you deserve better than this my brother. Please, please just stop.

            Someone said on the forum once that its better to believe in the basics, the straightforward basics than chance it by following the claims of the Jamaat. How will God punish anyone for being safe and sticking with the basics, this isn’t business my brother, there is no room for taking risks and chancing it.

            How will Allah ever fail you my brother, if you die with just 3 things in your heart: Allah, your Prophet being Mohammad SAW and your book being the Quran? How will Allah punish you for this? To believe in his greatest Prophet and the word of Islam? Tell me when you are asked your questions in your grave, can you imagine being punished for simply saying your one and true Prophet is Mohammad (saw)?What an injustice this would be… Allah will never fail you for believing in only Mohammad SAW and His word. Please do not risk or chance your spiritual afterlife by believing in the claims of MGA- you know deep down something is very wrong… And if we are wrong, we will all be wrong together. Just think about it… but please, stop all this before it is too late. You deserve the best and the best is Islam.

      • @ the Sultan

        FYI: In christian-doctrine…. the messiah to return is GOD (nauzobillah). Whom else do you think Jesus Christ is, he is their messiah and GOD (nauzobillah).

      • This is a complete mockery of the English Tadhkirah, which says:

        “The Promised Messiah explained this as meaning that Pigott was in a bad way and would not repent and would not believe in God. There is also the indication that his claiming to be God is an evil thing and that he will be afflicted with God’s chastisement”

        Not only do Ahmadis twist Islamic references, now they are twisting their own 🙂

  8. No matter what the Murabbis say, they cannot break this statement by Symth-Piggott:

    “I am God, it does not matter what they do”
    – Symth-Pigott, uttered in 1909, a full 1-year after Mirza Ghulam lost his death prophecy.

    So, even if you claim Pigott eventually repented (of which there is zero evidence for) you still have to deal with the fact that there is a documented case of him claiming to be God even after Mirza died.

    I trust in the inherent honesty and goodness of the average Ahmadi to recognize that Mirza was false, but that Muhammad SAAWS was true!

    • Check the response I was given by my father (regular caller and viewer of Rah E Huda):

      He repented then un-repented! So he repented before Mirza Ghulam died, MGA died in peace, and when the world lost their Messiah, he then started with his crazy claims all over again!

      Hope that makes sense.. its all subject to interpretation and its up to you whether you accept it, but its the truth!

      • On discovering this immoral and disgraceful relationship of Smyth-Pigott with one of his unmarried disciples, the Church of England took stern action against him, and he was defrocked and thus utterly humiliated. But Smyth-Pigott persisted in his arrogance and announced: ‘I am God. It does not matter what they do.’ (events of 1909)

        (from Qadiani book – Approaching the West, by Mubasher Ahmad, MA,LLB), published 2008. (thanks Rationalist)

        In his Urdu newspapers, MGA had talked about annihilation but not outright death, because he was prohibited by the British from making death prophecies in India after the court-ordered agreement in 1897 which MGA had signed in total obedience. This is why Qadianis ‘stock lie’ was his defrocking (no longer a priest of the Church of England) in 1909. That is, he was in good health and standing until the death of MGA in May, 1908.

        PREVIOUS STOCK LIE: HE DID NOT REPENT AND WAS HUMILIATED

        But, true to his nature, MGA had predicted Pigott’s death within his lifetime (before 1908) in the ENGLISH leaflet that was published in England, which the Qadianis destroyed all copies, except the one we found. MGA said if he does not die within his lifetime, MGA is false.

        NEW STOCK LIE: HE REPENTED AND WAS SAVED DEATH

        CASE CLOSED.

      • Have your father join you at a local masjid, see what he thinks of it. Have him come for more than just 1 or 2 days, maybe a week?

        Daughters can make their father’s do anything!

  9. It is not an argument from silence. You need to watch the show and see what Dr. Nick clearly stated. He “changed” his views. He stopped calling himself “God”.

    And there is no OTHER prophecy about him dying “FIRST”. That is conditional to his repentance from his claim of being “GOD”. Since he changed his claims, he survived.

    Dr. Dowie did not change his claims and did not survive. It’s that simple!

    And what “historical” evidence are you talking about? The quotation you keep presenting was from 1904! See for yourself:

    “… in 1904, he chose an outsider to become his ‘Bride of the Lamb’ or his ‘Chief Soul Bride’, a position the new Sister Ruth took unhesitatingly and with no apparent protest from Catherine. The precise nature of the relationship was soon revealed – three children called Glory, Power and Life were born within a few years. The response of the Church of England was to defrock Smyth-Pigott, but his reaction was: ‘I am God. It does not matter what they do’.”

    This is a very slippery slope for you, my friend!

    • The “Sultan al-Qalam” team’s defense of this point rests on two points to argue that Pigott repented:
      1) Pigott stopped claiming to be God in public – Yes, this is a standard “Argument from Silence” fallacy.
      2) We have proof that he continued to claim to be God. As cited above

      The defrocking took place on Jan 1909, not 1904. This is historically documented in multiple sources, including The Sydney Morning Herald, The Evening Post, The Hawera and Normandy Star, AND West Coast Times.
      Reference: http://www.qarchives.com/confluence/display/qarchives/John+Hugh+Smyth-Pigott

      It was only after his defrocking that he made the claim about divinity: “I am God, it does not matter what they do.” And I repeat, claiming to be God indicates is a clear lack of repentance.

      So, its clear that Pigott did not retract his claims in Mirza’s lifetime. This much is historically sound.

      At this point, you can only say the following:
      1) Pigott repented in Mirza’s lifetime, but then went back into his Kufr after Mirza died
      2) You could say those 4 newspapers held the story for a number of years, then decided to report it in 1909, 5 years after the fact.

      Either way, we’ve got you on the run 🙂

      Secondly, it appears you are not reading the very quote you pasted me. Yes it say 1904, but then it says “three children called Glory, Power and Life were born within a few years”. Now, unless you think he had all three children in 1904…

      You call yourself “Sultan al-Qalam”. It appears your pens have run out of ink! We’d love to have you join this side of the debate. The door is open.

      • Yes! My bad! I misread the quotation. Nevertheless, I need stronger proof that this actually happened.

        The sydney herald only discusses the beginning of his decline.
        The evening post discusses the same. The hawera and normandy star say that he was defrocked in 1909. And the West Coast Times says that he said this about his defrocking: “We shall go as if nothing had happened…”.

        None of these newspapers quoted say anything about his claim to divinity in 1909. What you have is a website attributing this statement to him. This is a slippery slope…. fallacy! 🙂

        Prove to me that he actually claimed divinity in 1909. Bring some solid proof.

        • @ the sultan

          explain the following

          Taken from the Review of Religions of Sep 1903

          http://www.aaiil.org/text/articles/reviewofreligions/1903/reviewreligionsenglish190309.pdf

          Page 349-351

          This was published in an English newspaper called the “The Sunday Circle”, London, Feb 14th, 1903:

          MGAQ stated:

          “If he does not repent of this irreverant claim, he soon shall be annihilated, even in my lifetime………..”

          “The death of Mr. Piggot within my life-time shall be another sign of my truth. If I die before Mr. Piggot I am not the true Messiah, nor am I from God. But if almighty God makes me a witness of Mr. Pigots death, which shall be brought about by the efficacy of my prayer, let the whole world bear witness that I am the true Messiah, and that I am from God. We are both under the control of a higher power, and that powerful God shall bring the false Messiah to destruction within the lifetime of the true one.

          The editor of The Sunday Circle then comments:

          “It will appear from this that the same claimant who challenges one pretender to pray that the liar may die in the life-time of the true claimant, has predicted the death of the another pretender, fifteen years younger than himself , within his own lifetime……”

          • Mirza Inc explain as such:

            1. Athim temporarily silently repented..hence the extension of life…
            2. the husbad of Muhammadi Begum silently repented
            3. Piggot silently repented
            4. Abdul Hakim never accepted the challenge
            5. Sanaullah never accepted the challenege

            Excuses, excuses, excuses…did any prediction of the guy turn out the way he predicted it? And….the entire story of Dowie was effectively covered up by Muhammad Ali in the Review of Religions. Ahmadiyyat knew full and well that Dowie recieved a pension after he lost control of this Catholic community in a court case.

            The leader granted Dowie a pension to live off of. The community was saved and continued to progress for 30+ years. And guess what…Dowie never re-claimed to be John the Baptist. In fact…he backed off in 1905 and called himself as simply the “The First Apostle”.

        • If you misread it, that’s fine, no big deal.

          The claim to divinity took place after he was defrocked. This much you also agreed to.

          The point of the articles is not to show that he claimed divinity, the point is to show that he was defrocked in 1909. If we agree to that much, we’ve made progress. Then, as you agreed, it was only after his defrocking that he made the statement “I am God, it does not matter what they do”.

          So in chronological order:
          MGA dies first in 1908
          Pigott defrocked in 1909
          Pigott repeats his divinity claim in 1909, thus proving he didn’t repent.

          Point is, Pigott maintained his claim even after Mirza Sahib died. This destroys any possible defense of “secret” or “silent” repentance. Pigott remained upon his claim of divinity (kufr) and Mirza Sahib died first. Therefore, Mirza Sahib lost the challenge/prophecy/what-have-you.

          Even if you remain an Ahmadi, doesn’t this seem highly suspect to you?

          I highly suggest you look study up on logical fallacies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

          • “So in chronological order:
            MGA dies first in 1908
            Pigott defrocked in 1909
            Pigott repeats his divinity claim in 1909, thus proving he didn’t repent.”

            In chronological order…
            Point 1: Hadhrat Masih Mau’ud (as) died in 1908. Agreed!
            Point 2: Pigott was defrocked in 1909. Yes, the newspapers seem to suggest that.
            Point 3: Pigott repeats his divinity claim in 1909. HIGHLY SUSPECT! I need proof of this from an authentic newspaper from 1909. The original scan! Don’t tell me to believe an advertisement written in 2003.

            [snip] irrelevant [/snip]

            Become a Muslim who believes in the Messiah! 🙂

          • Sultanul,

            Earlier, you accepted the website we provided, and acknowledge that the “I am God” quote was in true, but was in 1904 before Mirza Sahib died, not 1909 after Mirza died. When we got you to acknowledge that the defrocking took place in 1909, you’re now rejecting the quote all by rejecting the website all together… Do you see the change in position?

            So, you reject our source. I can respect that (though, I’m not sure if the Ahmadi readers of this blog will.) If we provide you with a single reputable source of him claiming his divinity claim after he was defrocked in 1909, will you at least come to question Ahmadiyya? A simple yes or no will suffice. We can find this, if need be – I live near several major libraries, so finding historical news articles and esoteric books aren’t difficult.

            Again, I’m not asking you to drop your beliefs overnight, just to allow for healthy questioning. May Allah honor you.

        • dude
          If he repented then Mirza qadianis prediction that he wont repent based on his revelations fails!
          either way he fails!
          why dont you people stop defending a cult and become muslims and defend Islam????

    • @ the Sultan

      FYI: piggot got in trouble for immoral behavior, not for claiming to be GOD (nauzobillah). And… when he was proved as guilty for the crime he boastfully claimed divinity yet again.

      This court case was nothing but a speed bump in the life of piggot. He never changed anything..How do you not see this. Take off the blinders…

      • Yes, but the Rahe Huda team showed that he had already changed his claims before 1908. What you are relying upon is a quotation that he said “I am God” in 1909 but that quotation comes from a website. Now, as far as my knowledge goes, the internet did not exist at the time of Pigott. That website makes a mere claim.

        That’s why I call this a slippery slope fallacy.

        • Rahe huda team try to prove that Pigott claimed to be Messiah later instead of GOD

          Remember in Christianity MESSIAH is GOD himself.

          Secondly the statement of 1909 is also available on ur own website.

          Thirdly Rah-e-Huda team assumes that he repented when he didnt. and they neither have pigott statement nor MGA’s statement about it.

          • urs and their whole argument is based upon assumptions that he did this or did that.

            where as u and any of rah-e-Huda team failed to provide a single statement from Pigott or even Mirza Ghulam (two people related to prophecy) that Pigott repented.

            just see it for ur self that how weak ur stance is

    • Sultan HE WAS DEFROCKED in 1909
      and Also MESSIAH in Christianity is GOD.

      So get ur facts right

    • Newsflash…

      Dowie changed his claim to that of “First Apostle” in 1906.

      “I declare in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit, in accordance with the Will of God our Heavenly Father, that I am, in these Times of Restoration of all things, the First Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church in Zion.”

      Go here: http://sites.google.com/site/leavesofhealing/leavesofhealingpartone%3Athelifelindsay5

  10. Can I just say that I am the one who initially brought this long-forgotten story to the attention of the community a few years ago and not the anti-Ahmadiyya lobby. I was accused of soliciting information from Pigott’s living relations because I had been in touch with them. Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad prophesied that God would establish his name in London when nobody would be left to speak of Pigott (Malfoozat ii. 512). Below are some other interesting links associated with the story of this wonderful Sign of God in support of His true Messiah & Mahdi (peace be upon him):

    Sir John Betjeman visits the house of John Hugh Smyth-Pigott.

    • Rehan its funny that u ignore the main prophecy of MGA regarding Pigott’s death in MGA’s life time 🙂

      we dont consider pigott truthful but we also dont consider MGA truthful got it?

      • Both were very similar. In fact, both had ‘spiritual brides’ out of wedlock. Alas, the customs of Punjab did not allow MGA to acquire his ‘spiritual bride’.

        • They were actually more similiar than I had initially thought.

          Piggot was defrocked and called non-christian by the Church of England in 1909, similarily MGAQ was labeled a Kafir of Islam by the Ulema of India in 1891.

          Did MGAQ repent? Did Piggot repent? Both of these pretenders continued on there path to being liars. MGAQ wrote for 10 years that he wasnt a prophet…even though that was nothing more than lip service.

          • 1. When the Ahmadis were asked as to why Maulvi Sanaullah outlived MGAQ, they said that Sanallah didnt accept the challenge of MGAQ, hence the challenge was defunct or non-operable.

            1.a. FYI: Neither Dowie or piggot accepted any challenge of MGAQ. Yet..Dowie died and Piggot lived on in luxury.

            2. When the husband of Muhammadi Begum outlived MGAQ..the Ahmadis claimed that he repented. My question is from what? What was Ahmad Beg doing wrong before his marriage to Muhammadi? What did he repent from? What was his mistake? He was a common man who married a nice girl.

            3. Now we have uncovered that Piggott continued to believe that he was God (nauzobillah min zalik) from 1908 to 1927, and the Ahmadis gave the same standard answer…but Piggot never repented.

            Only Allah gives knowledge and guidance!!!!!

            Ahmadis give common and standard answers even if they are bogus and lacking in academic integrity. Kate Barlow said that Piggott gave the sunday sermon until his death in 1927.

  11. Here is a newpaper from the UK:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/ooh-vicar-our-appetite-for-randy-rectors-1020519.html

    “….the Rev John Hugh Smyth-Pigott succeeded him, was defrocked in 1909, but lived on at Agapemone until 1927.”

    Here is his reaction to being defrocked in 1909

    “The response of the Church of England was to defrock Smyth-Pigott, but his reaction was: ‘I am God. It does not matter what they do’.” (The Abode of Love)

    http://www.somersetgateway.com/aboutsom/somermag/may2000/abode.htm

    Now the month your false “prophet” died, the charlatan Pigott said the following as taken from the Hawera & Normanby Star, Volume LVI, 8 March 1909, Page 5:

    “Mr Frank Edward Francombe stated that in February, 1908, he obtained admission to the Agapemone and had some conversation with Smyth-Pigott. Did you ask him how he he established his claim to the godhead? Yes; he replied something about a sacred light.”

    In Man, Myth & Magic: An Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Supernatural, Volume 7 by Richard Cavendish (1971) it says:

    “…the court finding him guilty of ‘immorality, uncleanness, and wickedness of life’. But Smyth-Pigott was unconcerned. ‘I am God,’ he said. ‘It does not matter what they do’.”

    In the Coronet: Volume 40 by Arnold Gingrich (1956) It says:

    “Pigott escaped jail because there was no provision in English law under which he could be charged. … When he heard the news, he promoted himself yet again. “It does not matter what they do,” he said. “I am God””

    In Temple of love by Donald McCormick (1965) it says

    “On the following Sunday Smyth-Pigott preached in the chapel, taking for his text : ‘And so persecuted they the prophets… ‘I am God. It does not matter what they do.’ ”

    Seriously Ahmadis, stop denying facts it’s childish. We have proven over and over again that upon being defrocked in 1909 he stated that he was God. All your so called evidence is implying that you have knowledge of the unseen. How can you not see the difference? Have fear of Allah (SWT). Return to Islam.

    • These are secondary sources. I need to see this from an ORIGINAL source. A newspaper clipping from 1909 would make sense. Don’t show me something from 56 or 65 or 71. I don’t want to, and rightfully so, believe in a guy saying that he said so and so 50 YEARS AGO.

      And more importantly, don’t show me something written in an advertisement.

      Apart from that, I would like to see the original of the Hawera & Normanby Star, Volume LVI, 8 March 1909, Page 5:

      “Mr Frank Edward Francombe stated that in February, 1908, he obtained admission to the Agapemone and had some conversation with Smyth-Pigott. Did you ask him how he he established his claim to the godhead? Yes; he replied something about a sacred light.”

      Is this available on the net?

        • (admin) — edited for irrelevancy — this subthread is about Farncombe since you did not believe the quote, you wanted to see the image

          • @ sultan

            You act like you were there. Thats the problem. You have nooooooo idea what this guy was upto from 1904–1909. For the sake of your prophet you are wholeheartedly ASSUMING that he somehow changed his ways.

            I would like to ask…Did he change his ways as he had 3 children out of wedlock?
            I read bios on him…he had 3 children in this time-frame. He had only roughly 3000 followers. He wasnt a big time preacher or anything. He didnt make the news much after his initial claims..he appears to have stayed in the backdrop of things, living immoraly. Almost like the Mormons of Utah.

            The interesting part is that in 1924, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad visited England. He wrote a book for that occasion called Invitation to Ahmadiyyat. Piggott was still alive in England. Ahmadis never mentioned his whereabouts or anything. However..Mahmud Ahmad did mention the Dowie affair in this same book.

      • Relevant portion from newspaper about Farncombe testifying under oath in court:

        A London journalist named Farncombe was examined before the Consistory Court. He stated that he interviewed Pigott 12 months ago (Feb 1908), Pigott told him that his claim to the Godhead could only be comprehended by the initiated; . . . Counsel asked that the Church of England should be purged of a man who, under ruse of religion, lived a life of blasphemy, ?fraud?, and unmorality? . . . The chancellor declared the charges to have been proved, . ..

        In fact, the style of both Pigott and MGA were quite similar, the only thing being that the English people were more educated and less people followed him. Today, Ahmadis maintain that they need to be initiated to understand the zilli, buroozi, mahdi, maseel, becoming Maryam mumbo-jumbo.

      • if you are shown the proofs are you going to become muslim or continue to prop up a dead horse??????

      • @ sultan

        The reference that you are seeking is from the book by Donald McCormick entitled, “Temple of Love”, published in 1965.

        Donald McCormick was an investigative reporter. He spoke to many people of the sect who left. He even spoke to “soul brides” who left, before Piggot even had a chance to deflower them.

        McCormicks brief bio is on the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_McCormick

  12. Stop diverting the topic. This is about Pigott, keep in on topic.

    Tell me:

    Did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad say Pigott would die in his lifetime if he did not repent? Yes/No

    Did Pigott boast in 1909 that he was God? Yes/No

    Did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad die before Smyth-Pigott? Yes/No?

  13. I’d like to bring this trail of comments to everyone’s attention:

    * SultanulQalam first accepted that Pigott said “I am God” after his defrocking, but said the defrocking took place in 1904.
    * We showed 4 newspapers showing he was defrocked in 1909.
    * SultanulQalam acknowledged that the defrocking took place in 1909, but then denied that Pigott said “I am God”, a reverse of his earlier position that the quote was true. He rejects a website that was published in 2003.
    * We demonstrate 3 scholarly research books of Pigott claiming to be God immediately after his defrocking – the same exact quote: “I am God it does not matter what they do”.
    * SultanulQalam recognizes that the quotes do indicate this claim, but says they are secondary sources and insists on a primary source.
    * We show a scanned (primary source) newspaper article of Pigott continuing to claim to be “God” well after his children’s birth in Feb 1908 (1 month before Mirza Sahib died)
    * SultanulQalam continues to deny it, saying it is not clear enough of a quote.

    If Pigott came here today and continued his claim to divinity, would SultanulQalam accept it?

    The fact is, Mirza Sahib’s prophecy rests on Pigott never claiming to be God after 1908. If he accepts it, he has to acknowledge that Mirza Sahib failed a prophecy. So it is in the interest of SultanulQalam to delegitimize or deny *literally* everything that supports this claim, even if it is a documented historical record and established fact.

    Our master Sayydinaa Muhammad ibn Abdullah SAAWS is the last and final prophet. Mirza Sahib was a false prophet.

    • Kate Barlow who is the grand-daughter of Piggot, she did an interview in 2009 to a radio station in Canada.

      http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2009/2493474.htm

      1. She says that Piggot was the 2nd messiah aka GOD.

      2. She says that after Piggots death in 1927 the cult began to slowly fall apart.
      Here is what she said:

      Rachael Kohn: When did your grandfather die?

      Kate Barlow: He died in 1927.

      Rachael Kohn: So after he died, who was delivering the sermons?

      Kate Barlow: Nobody. There was a fellow called Douglas Hamilton who tried for a bit, but he wasn’t the slightest bit charismatic. It all went downhill once my grandfather died. Well it was such a shock, I know it sounds ridiculous, but they left the grave open because they thought he’d come back. You know if you actually believe this, and I think that’s when things really started to go downhill.

      • Furthermore,

        1. It should be noted that Barlow is of the opinion that Piggot knowingly put on a charade about his Godhood/Messiahship. Which is actually true. I think all researchers can attest to this.

        2. Secondly…after piggott got in trouble in the 1906-1910 era..he backed off on making public declarations, he didnt want to risk losing his empire of LUST. Piggot knew that his immoral life of extravagency was in jeopardy. He strategized to stay as far away from society as humanely possible, which is what his predecessor did. I hypothesize that Piggot knew that he could live out his days in his LUSH mansion and he didnt care what happened after his death. It was the perfect strategy for the CON of piggott.

        2.a. Considering all the ideas I posted above..if MGAQ was true..Piggott would have died either before 1908 or sometime after in a manner that was degrading and worthy of public discourse…Piggott never repented..he just strategized better to keep his CON running.

        3. Piggot wasnt silent on his claims to Godhood from the 1910-1927..he regularly gave sermons to his followers. What he didnt do was give public pronouncements or advertisements. But that doesnt solve the case at all. It proves that Piggot was very clever indeed.

        3.a. Piggot never repented. For Piggot to have have repented we would need a PUBLIC declaration to the effect that his cult was a FAKE and a FRAUD, similiar to what W.D. Muhammad did with the Nation of islam. That never happened. In fact, the cult began to digress because they werent getting NEW CONVERTS to supply funding. But Piggot didnt care..his life was easy…Barlow grew up in a lush mansion..she had a nanny, etc etc. They sold things in thier possesion to pay for school. Funding was a major issue. THEY DIDNT HAVE CHANDA AAM. Which proves that Piggot was less immoral than Mirza Inc. Piggot wanted sex and ease. Mirza wanted sex and the fortunes of his followers, and not in that particular order.

        3.b. Piggot lived in a nice mansion just 15 miles from the Al-Fazl mosque in London from 1904 (roughly) to 1927. The Ahmadiyya Movement never contacted them. Thats astounding…and Piggot never acknowledged any “death-contest” that MGAQ spit at him.

        4. Piggot was buried vertically. That means his head was at the very top of his grave. This evidence is astounding. Piggot didnt repent EVER!!!!!!!! Even at his death he made bold assertions of an ascension of sorts. His followed even checked the grave a few years later to see if their GOD/Messiah was still there.

        • 1905 – child born – named him ‘Glory’ and Pigott calls him ‘new Messiah’ during baptism. People are horrified, and his secretary’s (C.S. Read)company sacks him as Director)

          1906-1907 – people have run-ins with him, Spaxton residents are content with his largesse, press continues to write, while his cult thrives.

          1908 – another illegitimate child born, Bishop takes action in November.

          Jan 1909 – deprived
          Mar 1909 – defrocked

          Also, read his obituaries and ‘career’. Not a single reporter or observer or writer or critic or bishop ever said that he had retracted a single word of what he had uttered.

          • One more point to add here:

            1. Kate Barlow states that finances of the “A” slowly digressed. After 1910, and after WWI is what she focuses on.

            1.a. This proves that Piggott was rich at least upto 1910–1914.

            2. This is the total opposite of the Dowie affair, a polar opposite in fact. Whereas Dowie had a tragic end..Piggott actually did well, he was even buried by his followers.

    • * SultanulQalam first accepted that Pigott said “I am God” after his defrocking, but said the defrocking took place in 1904.
      ** No, I did not. I have always maintained that in the period before 1904 his claims to being God were ALWAYS clearcut. I am only trying to see this from Rahe Huda’s research. They said that after 1904, he starts to waiver in his claims. I misunderstood the quote “I am God” to have been made in 1904 and accepted such a statement from 1904.

      I think that in your attempt to humiliate me, you have said some pretty false accusations against me. True, you hate Ahmadiyyat. But you gotta take it easy! 🙂

      * We showed 4 newspapers showing he was defrocked in 1909.
      * SultanulQalam acknowledged that the defrocking took place in 1909, but then denied that Pigott said “I am God”, a reverse of his earlier position that the quote was true. He rejects a website that was published in 2003.

      **This is not true as explained earlier. But I still reject the website as it is meant for a tourist audience and they WANT to put controversial statements in there to attract tourists.

      * We demonstrate 3 scholarly research books of Pigott claiming to be God immediately after his defrocking – the same exact quote: “I am God it does not matter what they do”.
      * SultanulQalam recognizes that the quotes do indicate this claim, but says they are secondary sources and insists on a primary source.
      * We show a scanned (primary source) newspaper article of Pigott continuing to claim to be “God” well after his children’s birth in Feb 1908 (1 month before Mirza Sahib died)
      * SultanulQalam continues to deny it, saying it is not clear enough of a quote.

      What I’m asking is: Prove to me that he said, “I am God” in 1909 from a primary source.

      • * SultanulQalam first accepted that Pigott said “I am God” after his defrocking, but said the defrocking took place in 1904.
        ** No, I did not. I have always maintained that in the period before 1904 his claims to being God were ALWAYS clearcut. I am only trying to see this from Rahe Huda’s research. They said that after 1904, he starts to waiver in his claims. I misunderstood the quote “I am God” to have been made in 1904 and accepted such a statement from 1904.
        *** Yes, you did. Your exact quote was this:
        And what “historical” evidence are you talking about? The quotation you keep presenting was from 1904! See for yourself:

        * We showed 4 newspapers showing he was defrocked in 1909.
        * SultanulQalam acknowledged that the defrocking took place in 1909, but then denied that Pigott said “I am God”, a reverse of his earlier position that the quote was true. He rejects a website that was published in 2003.

        **This is not true as explained earlier. But I still reject the website as it is meant for a tourist audience and they WANT to put controversial statements in there to attract tourists.
        *** That’s speculation. We have multiple scholarly publications citing that he claimed divinity after defrocking. You just choose to reject them. The website is just “icing on the top”. And yes, earlier you did accept it, as pasted above. You’re changing your story.

        * We demonstrate 3 scholarly research books of Pigott claiming to be God immediately after his defrocking – the same exact quote: “I am God it does not matter what they do”.
        * SultanulQalam recognizes that the quotes do indicate this claim, but says they are secondary sources and insists on a primary source.
        * We show a scanned (primary source) newspaper article of Pigott continuing to claim to be “God” well after his children’s birth in Feb 1908 (1 month before Mirza Sahib died)
        * SultanulQalam continues to deny it, saying it is not clear enough of a quote. What I’m asking is: Prove to me that he said, “I am God” in 1909 from a primary source.

        *** We have cited you multiple multiple sources with his claim of divinity, but your best defense is that they are not primary sources. The fact is Sultanul, you aren’t the only Ahmadi reading this site. We have a very large readership basis. If you alone reject scholarly works, so be it. But, recognize that your co-religionists will not be so rejectionist.

        In other words, we’ve got Ahmadiyya on the run.

        But lets say we acquired one of Pigott’s speeches after 1909 claiming to be God. Assuming it was 100% accurate and clearly made the claim to be Divine. What would you do then? Be specific, no rhetoric.

      • @ the sultan

        Page 111 of “Temple of Love” by Donald McCormick, 1965

        1. The infamous 1909 quote wherein Piggot responds to the defrocking by saying, ” I am god, it does not matter what they do”. Page 111. This is the origin of this statement.

        Any other questions?

  14. This is actually funny.
    Why do you keep deleting my comments?
    if I have done something wrong, please do forgive me!
    But all I want to do is share a youtube video about Piggot.
    Oh wait, are the contents of the video not what you want to hear?
    =/.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g5sxiUgoo4

    Wasalaam!

    • I just watched the video…

      Im sorry..did he say BLASPHEMY laws in England??? Ahmadis could learn alot here.

      OMG..did he say “the way the piggot presented his claims…flowery-language….claims that could be read in many different ways…circumlocutions…

      Piggott sounds more like MGAQ everyday..its the perfect analogy.

      And the MTA broadcaster pushed this guy to say that Piggott backed off of his wild claims after 1902. I think Dr.Schweiss is attempting to say that Piggott knew that he was a fraud but continued the CON-JOB nonetheless. Even backing-off as needed… but then he would accelerate it as needed as well. Even aftern 1909 Piggott had his flock believe that he was God.

      I have reference worthy of note:

      Taken from Charles Mander, “The Reverend Prince and His Abode of Love”, written in 1976, page 140.

      “The Agapamone never really survived the death of Smyth-Piggot. Douglas Hamilton, who took over the running of the establishment after Piggott’s death, was no Messiah, and never sought the title. Others did ; sons of God emerged from the most unlikely places, declaring their divinity. A rash of would-be Messiahs besieged the Abode of Love hoping to be installed on the throne of Heavenly Grace. Hamilton beat them off; Beloved’s Soul-Brides languished loveless, and gradually the Agapamone drifted into respectability.”

      This reference proves that uptil the death of Piggott his cult believed him to be the Messiah/Son of God, Jesus, etc etc etc.

      Sorry Ahmadis…

      • I have the Dr.’s thesis but haven’t read all of it. He seems to be more focused on Prince rather than Piggot as well. He does call them a “messianic” cult. I searched for any theses done on Piggot himself, but didn’t find any. Anyone else wants it?

        • @ Qas

          The story of the Agapamone revolves around the life and times of Prince more than Piggot. Prince was the creator..he also claimed to GOD, The Messiah, Son of Man, etc etc etc….

          Allah didnt kill him..nor is it the perogative of Allah to murder all claimers of divinity or prophethood…Prince lived a long and illustrious life. He even drove around London in esteem.

          Piggot came along in 1902…the only reason that he claimed divinity was because he HAD TO. After his claim he took his spot in the 20 room mansion. He even published writings to the effect that he would not be debating his claims with anyone.

          I have 3 books on the topic and 2 more on the way. I will more on the “A’s” than any professor in about a month. Mirza inc. is in trouble!

    • Here is a reference from Kate Barlows book:

      barlow, page 168, concerning 1902

      “By October, my grandfather had shaken off the dust of disbelieving London and repaired to his Abode of Love in Somerset, where he was greeted with a mixture of awe, delight and supplication. It was left to loyal Douglas Hamilton to deal with the latest skirmish with Church authorities. A reverend Browne of Crouch End had written asking to publicly debate Mr. Piggott on his Messianic claims. “We have nothing to debate”, replied Hamilton.”

      “Moreover, he continued, future correspondance would not be forthcoming unless the Messiah was approached ‘in the attitude of supplication’. The Reverend J.H. Smyth-Pigott had ‘ceased to be’.”

      another reference from Page 166,

      Barlow quotes the Hackney and Kingsland Gazette of 22 Sep 1902:

      “As generally anticipated, no services were held at the ‘Ark of the Covenant’…the Reverend Mr. Piggott will avoid all appearances in public until the popular resentment caused by his blasphemous claims to be the Messiah has somewhat abated….”

    • Ahmadiyyat has shot itself in the foot with this video. It is obvious that Dr. Schweiso’s statements of “flowery-language” by Piggot refer to saying and doings of Piggot over a 25 year period.

      I have a strong hypothesis that Piggot knew that he was a fraud. Because he knew of this game that he was playing..he continued to play it. HE NEVER REPENTED!! He used flowery language at times…but he never made a public announcement to the effect that his Messiah-ship was a charade of sex and money.

      If Piggott did repent…when and where? This question must be answered. And remember…the Review of Religions on 1907 wrote that Piggot had been knocked into oblivion…and they boasted of the success of MGAQ’s death threat.

      Mirza Inc. must consider living in a 20 bedroom mansion, with countless servants and women as oblivion. They must think that living a life in fraud and deception is a curse of Allah.

      And I dont even want to start on Henry Prince. The eclipses occurred during his reign as well? Is that a proof of his authenticity or sincerity? Ahmadis did say that “all you need is a claimer”. Henry Prince lived a long life and Allah never grabbed his jugular vein. This proves that Allah doesnt chastise or punish the blasphemer. MGAQ was one, and so was Prince and Piggot.

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