The Ahmadiyya Chanda Fraud

Which word is mentioned with the same frequency as the word “salah” in the Noble Qur’an? No prizes for guessing “Zakah“, unless you’re Ahmadiyya top brass, in which case you’d really want it to be “chanda“. And what is chanda aam, other than a 6.25% tax on your income? Well, it’s bid`ah of course, an innovation, as according to the Ahmadiyya, it’s obligatory. It’s an alteration of the shari`a and is therefore totally unIslamic.

But it’s actually worse than that. Why? Well there’s an argument that if chanda was used for the benefit of the membership, that it’s not such a bad thing, but is it for the benefit of the membership? That remains to be seen. Let’s now have a look at how the Ahmadiyya defines its activities for the benefit of the Charities Commission:

Ahmadiyya - Charities Commision

Of particular interest to us is the bottom line. “Assistance to deserving and needy”. I’m fairly certain that in years past, they had a provision for helping the deserving and needy amongst its membership, and given that they have Humanity First as an outfit that takes care of those last two lines, the question of redundancy for the purposes of deception does arise.

In Britain, the needy have access to Job Seeker’s Allowance, Incapacity Benefit and Income Support. That is how the State looks after the needy. The State is of course funded by the taxpayer. That’s you and I. It’s by and large a very useful system, preventing the weakest members of society from total financial breakdown, without needlessly incentivising them to remain unemployed for long periods. It isn’t a massively dissimilar system to that of zakah in a truly Muslim society. As such, it should be praised.

Now I can tell you from personal experience that it’s very hard to live on Job Seeker’s Allowance. The way I managed in 2004 was to sell almost everything of value that I owned. I ate cheap, packet noodles for most meals and I just about got by. Alhamdulillah. If it hadn’t been for the odd bit of help from family and friends, it would have been impossible. I was in genuine need and the State stepped in and helped me. On a side note, I praise Allah for this period of my life. It was tough, but I learned a lot.

From previous experience, I didn’t expect the jama’at to assist. I was not in the least bitter about this, I just accepted it as the way things were. In the early 90s when I was previously in a tight spot, Mirza Tahir recommended that I buy some Premium Bonds when I asked him for a short-term, interest-free loan off the back of the thousands in chanda I had previously paid. Being the gullible cultee that I was, that’s exactly what I did. I bought an investment that is riba-based.

So in 2004, despite being by far the highest chanda contributor for years to the North London jama`at, at times happily paying £200 per month, I didn’t ask, and I didn’t expect. In fact, I never told the jama’at about my financial difficulties and just upped my involvement, doing more security duty and going to more meetings. I was in genuine need, but I relied on Allah (SWT). Thank God then, for the Welfare State.

Now, leaving aside the high number of Ahmadis who engage in paid cash work whilst claiming benefits (as my late father always lamented)there  is the bigger issue of the Ahmadiyya making chanda payments obligatory, whether you are employed or not. In fact, chanda is payable even if you are on benefits. That’s right. The Ahmadiyya taxes its poorest members. The Welfare State helps poor Ahmadis and the Ahmadiyya taxes them. Don’t believe me? The Khuddam web-site states clearly what “net income” means:

* In this context when we talk about net income it means the following:

1. Income from Employment and State Benefits

– This includes (i) Salaries and Wages, (ii) Pensions from former employer/s, (iii) State Pension, (iv) Child Benefit (v) Social Security Benefit including Unemployment Benefit, Income Support, Family Credit etc (vi) Any other regular income

 

I wonder how long before they close this site down? No worries. I have it archived and cached. I recommend that everybody else does the same.

They take money from the poor, the sick and the old. It’s so breathtakingly wrong, that you almost can’t believe your eyes. Other than the rank-and-file Ahmadi knowing about the reality of the situation, there is also a plainly visible chanda calculator. The gall of this is breathtaking. No Zakah calculator is available on any Ahmadiyya site that I am aware of, only a chanda calculator. Now, I don’t know how much JSA is nowadays, but in 2004 it was £55 per week. Based on that figure, The amounts payable are in the tables extracted from the site below:

ahmadiyya chanda calculations.png

(As a Khuddam (aged 15-40) you’d have to pay £277.58 per year. Note, the amount is obligatory and it’s about 10% of income! )

That is bread from the mouths of hungry children. If these poor people aren’t the ones who are supposed to be helped as “deserving and needy”, then who are?

One might ask how this collection is enforced? Most sincere Ahmadis know exactly how. They get an unbearable office-bearer (it used to be me!) calling them up demanding money. I don’t recall an office bearer ever calling up for anything other than “where’s your chanda?” or to advise of a meeting, where the question was asked. Direct debits are encouraged. Non-compliance can lead to the cruel practice of excommunication, which robs you of your community connections and is a pretty brutal effective boycott. In reality, this rarely happens, but the threat is usually sufficient to make people comply. This is not the issue though. The Ahmadiyya makes it very clear that chanda is obligatory on every earning and non-earning member. the British taxpayer is subsidising the expansion of the Ahmadiyya’s property base and poor Ahmadis are losing out.

Why are ordinary Ahmadis not allowed to say anything about this? Simply because dissent within the Ahmadiyya is ruthlessly suppressed. If you sound like you might be turned into a troublemaker, you’re excommunicated. People are so enmeshed in the cult that they daren’t say anything in public. That’s where I come in. I’m not saying anything more than what I know a lot of Ahmadis are thinking, and talking about privately, but are too frightened to complain about. Believe it or not, I am the voice of the downtrodden Ahmadi, who has my complete sympathies.

The operation of zakah is not always clear to the lay-person, but there are some easy to understand precepts. Zakah is collected from eligible Muslims and is then used to help the needy. In terms of utility, there is a lot of overlap between zakah and chanda, which rather begs the question of why the Ahmadiyya couldn’t function with just zakah. Obviously, with a Welfare State in Britain, Muslim organisations don’t give money to everyone on JSA, but neither do they ask for collections or donations! In fact, if you have debt, or even if you don’t and your income is low, you pay no zakah! That is Islam. Ahmadiyya is not Islam. It is a heretical movement that taxes the poor to promote itself. Why take money from the British taxpayer to fund your expansion? It is outright theft!

Ahmadiyya is not just a fringe movement with questionable theology, it is a de facto cult that keeps its victims mentally, spiritually and financially enslaved. It’s about time it got investigated.

 

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84 thoughts on “The Ahmadiyya Chanda Fraud

  1. This is just sickening, honestly these people are Zalims!
    They oppress their poorer members by claiming “Jagga Tax” and then have the cheek to say they donate to other poor people? what rubbish!
    When will these people open their eyes to the truth and realise that they are being exploited? why don’t they get it?
    All we want for these people is to accept Islam, leave the Cult and we ask of nothing in return other than for you to call us your Muslim brothers!
    Shahid Bhai Jazakha’Allahu Khair for this, may Allah except your efforts

  2. May the curse of Allah be upon the ahmadiyyat “sect” and may Allah dislodge it from the earth.

      • “And man supplicates for evil as he supplicates for good, and man is ever hasty.”
        – Surah Israa, Verse 11

      • Here is a letter I found from Masroor to Rafiq Hayat (‘ameer’ UK) sent out to all families with regards to Chanda payments, presented to you word for word:

        Respected Amir Sahib,

        Salaam.

        In the rules and regulations about obligatory chandas, there is a concession of 6 months for those in arrears. The rules have been presented in a generalised form. In fact this concession is mainly for the farmers and businessmen who prepare their financial accounts every 6 months.

        The Promised Messiah (as) actually demanded an inspired standard by stating ‘My follower should impose upon himself some monthly monetary contributions; it may be the smallest unit of a penny or even a half penny. But if someone neither contributes anything financially nor physically serves the community is a hypocrite and cannot remain in the community after that. We will wait a period of 3 months for every new convert to respond to this call. Is he ready to fix up some monetary monthly payments for the Jama’at. If a reply is not received from the new convert within a 3 month period then his name will be removed from the bai’at register and this will be notified to the Jama’at. If anyone did not fulfil his promise of payment due to carelessness, his name will also be removed. After that any arrogant or careless person who is not a helper will not remain in the community’.

        Therefore, in future all monthly earning members who are holding office in the Jama’at and are in arrears of chandas for more than 2 months, should be removed from their posts and new elections be held to replace them. The Promised Messiah (as) is talking about their removal from the Jama’at then why should we talk about giving them offices.

        May Allah enable us to be pious with complete faithfulness and total sincerity to remain attached with Khilafat.

        Wassalam,

        Khalifatual Masih V

        8th May 2007.

        What the hell is this man on? It sure isn’t something legal by the looks of things!

        He has made an entire new rule up because Mirza Ghulam was talking peasants and farmers, and not modern day tax payers who already know whats in the books! He uses a pointless quote by Mirza Ghulam about some 3 month convert period to justify imposing this 2 month period for office holders.

        its almost as if he is trying to covertly rewrite chanda rules to benefit his new system and to gain maximum benefit in modern times. ‘in fact this concession is mainly for farmers and businessmen’..yeah? since when? does it say that?? did mirza ghulam say this??

        balone.

  3. 1. Isn’t that what forces the poor Ahmadis on benefits to cheat? And then, a blind eye is turned towards cheating is encouraged as it drives more chanda — I have never heard it being criticised as a moral ill.

    2. They downplayed zakah, as there are clear rules on rate, eligibility, and what can be done with the money. They didn’t want to take on the Quran and Fiqh.

    3. There is not a shred of evidence — not even MGA books, or internal rules — that declare any of these chandas to be ‘obligatory’. NOTHING. ZILCH.

    • Just recently…my cousin called me and told me about an election on the local level. Apparently, some guy was elected as “local” president. Now when someone is elected as president or Sadr, headquarters in Washington D.C. has the right to refuse the appointment. They have the right to investigate this person for character and chanda.

      This person that was elected was promptly removed because he missed 1 chanda payment in the last 3 years. This decision was at the discretion of the staff at headquarters in D.C.

      This shows the height of corruption that this community is engulfed in. Just because this guy missed one payment they embarrassed him in front of the entire community. It would have been better if they would have told this guy at the door that his chanda was deliquent. Thus excluding him from the election altogether.

      Masroor isnt really that smart, he did grow some wheat in africa…

  4. Salam.
    All this is a blatant lie.
    There is no proof of it.
    Yo go and ask any ahmadi muslim and he will let you know the reality.
    Every body pays chanda and he is not left out of it.
    they of their own discretion and will and if they are unable they get exemption.
    As for the claim that the Zakah is the only Chanda, it is utterly false because Huzur(SAW) humself tok chanda from Sahaba for war purposes and sometimes for many other purposes too.
    In Jama’t the system of Zakah is continuing alhamdolillah from very beginning.
    Every Ahmadi Muslim pays Zakah on his Nisab….

    • Come on man, you are brainwashed. I was in Ahmadiyya 38 years and handled finance in North London. Accusing somebody of lying is quite serious. All of this is fact. Show us where we have lied or retract your accusation!

    • I find it questionable that you have to get an ‘Exemption’ to not pay Chanda. But, having to request an exemption for something neither in the Qur’an nor Sunnah is highly questionable.

      Next time the Chanda bill comes, don’t pay it.

      • There’s no bill akhi. An insufferable office bearer calls you for chanda regularly, it’s about all they call you for. Unless you’re on direct debit. People routinely downplay their salary in order to reduce the bill. The big deal here is that the sick, the poor and the elderly, the very people who most need our help, are taxed by Ahmadiyya. Even kids get pressured. It’s obscene.

        • “Chanda Bill” is my euphemism 🙂

          But yes, I have read the Ahmadi Financial documents that say things like “Keep asking them, never get tired of asking people for Chanda”. Literally, the link is here:
          http://www.ahmadiyya.us/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=79

          Go to page 4.

          From an outsiders perspective, it sounds creepy. You’re like… continuously calling up people for a payment that isn’t mentioned anywhere in the Qur’an nor was it the way of the Prophet SAAWS.

    • I was an ahmadi from birth to roughly age 25. Everything that Shahid wrote is true.

      If an ahmadi doesnt pay his chanda Aam, when election time comes around they will announce the names of those who cannot vote and the non-payer will be embarrassed. The ones that cannot vote are those who havent consistently paid the last 6 months of chanda, NOT ZAKAAT. The Ahmadi’s embarass these people by calling out their names in front of everyone. I used to complaim about this practice to my qaid and local president, I used to complain to them that if they know as to who is eligible to vote and who is not, then why dont they tell these people before the election? Thay way no one will be embarrassed. But they never listened. If a member totally refuses to pay chanda and everyone knows that he makes “good money” that member will soon be ex-communicated, but he can still attend prayers, for some reason they never told someone that they cant attend prayers.

      Since about the age of 14 my local president was always hounding me for Chanda AAM. I used to tell him that I dont even make any money, he said to pay something from my “walk-around” money. I said, “I dont get that from my parents”. He wouldnt believe me and kept hounding me. They never asked me for Zakaat. Never…not once.

      I remember listening to conversations in the mosque about chanda vs. zakaat. One person said that Zakaat was only paid once a year and he could pay it if he was really really interested. That was the end of those conversations.

  5. As a current member of Ahmadiyya Jamaat, I can vouch that whatever Shahid wrote about the greedy Chanda system in this jamaat of Islam Reformers is true! Jamaat is so greedy that during the times of MTA, they tried to bring in a provision that whoever does not make enough money, their wassyat will not be accepted. This got so much backlash and criticism that they withdrew it and replaced it with a more potent one: your wassyat will only be accepted if you enroll sufficiently early (read: prime earning years) of your time. These greedy bastards should know that their master MGAQ at least had the decency to require 10% of estate AFTER death. These greedy hounds changed it to suck your blood while you are still alive… SHAME ON THESE CORRUPT LIARS!!!

    • Thanks for visiting brother badshah.

      I speak as a human being. This isn’t a Muslim vs Ahmadiyya thing. This is me supportive of those poor people in Ahmadiyya getting suckered by their leadership. It’s disgusting. Thanks for sharing your experiences here brother, any other news you have would be read by many Ahmadis insha’Allah

      • The whole Ahmadiyya system is a fraud and MGAQ was neither a prophet nor a mujaddid but a clever and shrewd liar.

  6. Brother Shahid,

    Interesting is also your remark about Mirza Tahir Ahmad, the third Khalifa , advising you to take a riba loan. How strict are Ahmadis adhering to the islamic interest rules? Is for example funding of homes with a loan allowed by the “khalifa system” ?

    • Brother truthseeker, Mirza Tahir was the 4th, but yes, he asked me to engage in riba, he told me to buy Premium Bonds. It wasn’t the Premium Bonds themselves that are the issue, it’s that he directly contradicted Islam in his advice.

      Ahmadis are not strict about interest at all. In fact, I didn’t know an Ahmadi who was strict about this at all. I certainly wasn’t. It’s only now I’m Muslim that I shun it. That’s not to say there aren’t many Muslims who do engage in riba, of course there are, but equally, the proportion that do not is higher than in Ahmadiyya circles for sure.

      • Ahmadis are not strict about anything, including Halal/haram meat.
        I find it so revolting watching my family scoff chicken nuggets and chicken breasts that are not Halal. It makes my
        stomach churn! I was on a trip once with Mirza Tahir Ahmad and we all ate hamburgers with him- he was happyily tucking in
        like there was no tomorrow!
        Disgusting.

        Abu Baker RA narrated that Allah’s Messenger PBUH said “That body will not enter Paradise which has been nourished with Haram” (Baihaqi) .

        Signs of the (ahmadi) Times:

        Abu Hurayrah (RA) reports that the Prophet of Allah (PBUH) said, “a time will come upon the people wherein a man will not bother what he intakes; whether from Halal source or Haram.” (Bukhari) .

        • I’ve raise this point many times. They don’t follow any real Islam..aka any shariah, law etc they don’t follow. They don’t eat halal meat, don’t pray, don’t fast, drink alcohol etc all that sort of stuff…even women when they pray salaah i notice half of them, their heads are 3/4 uncovered and right after the sallah they take it off, they even pray with nailpolish on. When i raise these issues with them, they’re like ‘oh no, Islam is in the heart, that’s all that matters’..or some really pathetic excuses such as..well the supermarket meat is more hyginic than the butcher, no i can’t fast, i can’t make it, oh no alcohol is ok in small amounts, nailpolish protects the nails so it’s ok all that matters is if Islam is in the heart. Utterly ridiuclous..they boast how they are the ‘true’ islam..but how can they be ‘true’ muslims if they don’t bother with halal meat? Makes no sense!

          • I just want to comment on the Halaal meat issue. Some might see this as an insignificant point, and that there’s even the minority opinion that its okay…

            But, the reason why this is important is because halaal, pure food brings about Barakah (blessings). The lack of blessings is no small matter. If you are consuming food that is not halaal and not full of barakah, you are literally becoming an unblessed being. As the saying goes, “You are what you eat”.

            There is a story of Imam al-Muhasibi (contemporary of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal) learned that a corrupt family member who worked for the corrupt government sent him some bread. He refused to eat the bread, saying it was purchased with unblessed money. Rather than wasting the bread, he threw it into the river. When he saw the fish eating it, he refused to eat fish until one natural fish lifecycle had ended. He did not want the lack of blessings in his life.

            To us, this might seem crazy, but the pious early Muslims took this stuff SERIOUSLY! But Ahmadis don’t. May Allah guide them to the path of the earliest Muslims.

      • ahmadis also have a community in canada named peace village. when it was first planned, the jamaat encouraged people to move there and to live in those houses, you’d have to buy a house on mortgage. i didn’t see any preventative measures from the jamaat to avoid this problem and when i ask murabbis about it now, they say that muhammad sal allahu alayhi wa sallem also gave interest to a jewish man once. so they say that it’s okay to pay interest, as long as you don’t take interest. they say paying interest is like giving a gift to the one who lent you the money. but this goes against the hadith in riyad as-salihin which can even be found in sir zafrullah khan’s translation where rasul ullahi sal allahu alayhi wa sallem clearly curses the payer, the taker and the one who records the transaction of riba.

        findings pointed out that ahmadis also don’t care about zabiha meat. this is the whole issue of the problem in ahmadi fiqh. they don’t have any fiqh. they kinda follow hanafi fiqh but also the ijtihad of their khulafa which i find problematic a lot of the the time.

        • The problem I face muslim first is that when I say such things, most brainwashed Ahmadis immediately say I’m a liar. Even though I know most of this stuff from my personal experience. Your point is well made.

        • Subhana Allah, so these are the “true muslims”? These things do disturb me. On the one hand they claim ahmadiyya to be true islam, but on THE other hand THE followers don’t care to practise seriously some basic islamic beliefs.

          Good to have people on this site who know Ahmadiyyat from first hand

          • Exactly! Basic Islamic principles are not even followed!!

            Here are just some of the excuses:
            “these paki butchers’ aren’t Halal anyways- they get their meat and then label it Halal”
            “supermarkets meat is cleaner- that is halal”
            “Bismillah makes me Halal- its all about the prayer not the slaughter”
            “whats the point eating Halal like the sunnis if nothing else you do is Halal”.

            Stupid, weak arguments. There is absolutely no reasoning with them. The biggest thing that gets me
            is that my family who come from Pakistan on Jalsas will eat in McDonalds, KFC etc…. even they
            do not care for Halal food!!! Strange.

          • One of the changes i made after leaving that psychotic, demonic, messed up cult ( and I only realised just how messed up it was after I left and some of the people I thought I knew turned into killer zombies ) was eating Halal. Alhamdulillah. Hypocrites, They really are and I hear you on the McDonalds and KFC.

  7. Difference between Qadiani-Ahmadiyya Organization and Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement in matters of Chanda collection.
    [Copied from LAM blog]

    Financial Contributions in Ahmadiyya Movement of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

    HMGA has written about Chanda (Urdu word for financial contributions), in his book ‘The Will’. I have not come across in his writings where he has made it obligatory for his followers to make financial contributions, especially if they cannot afford it.
    Growing up in Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, I do not recall if collection of Chanda was given high priority. I do remember, on occasion of Jalasa Salana (annual gathering of Jamaat members) in last week of month of December, a presentation of on going and future projects for propagation of Islam was made and appeal for Chanda was made. Depending on financial situations LAM members use to contribute.

    Contrary to LAM Chanda collection, much higher priority is given in Qadiani Jamaat. I have heard and read a lot on this from those who are familiar with Qadiani Jamaat Chanda collection set-up. I have come across a recent article by a former Qadiani, Shahid Kamal. Per his speeches and writings he was quite active in Qadiani Jamaat. He has written an article on Chanda collections of Qadiani Jamaat in UK. Reading his article, I’m wondering did LAM ignored HMGA instructions on Chanda collection or Qadiani Jamaat has exaggerated to a great extent HMGA instructions? I will like to read reply from both LAM members and Qadiani Jamaat friends.
    Link to article by Shahid Kamal:
    ‘The Ahmadiyya Chanda Fraud’
    http://thecult.info/blog/2010/09/27/the-ahmadiyya-chanda-fraud/

    From Zahid Aziz:
    I have extracted three pages from Maulana Muhammad Ali’s booklet Instructions and Guidance for Members of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Jama`at, and have marked by a red line the instructions relating to donations.

    Here is the link.

    I also refer to his letter to the Jama`at at this link, in which he writes:

    “7. Encourage your children right from the start to give money for the propagation of Islam every month, no matter how small an amount, and have their names entered in the lists of regular contributors. In this way you will sow in their hearts from an early age the seeds of passion for the propagation of Islam, which will develop into a strong tree when they are grown up.

    10. Find out if your adult, financially independent offspring (for instance, your sons who earn their own income or your daughters who are married) give the monthly donation to the Jama‘at, subscribe to the periodicals of the Jama‘at, …”

    A large number of members make regular, monthly contributions, and many have bequeathed substantial sums in their wills. Our elders donated their properties and land to the Anjuman.

    Our system complies with the following instructions of the Promised Messiah given in his Will:

    “For this purpose, there should be an Anjuman entrusted to spend, as it determines fit, the funds thus collected from time to time, on proclaiming the teachings of Islam and spreading the message of the oneness of God.”

    “9. The Anjuman, which is to hold these funds, shall not be authorised to spend the monies for any purpose except the objectives of the Ahmadiyya Movement, and among these objectives the propagation of Islam shall have the highest priority.”

    The extract below is from the biography of Maulana Muhammad Ali:

    “Appeal to make Wills
    Among the major plans that Maulana Muhammad Ali put before the Jama‘at to carry into action, one was the making of wills which he initiated at the annual gathering of 1936. He said that while we had embraced the Promised Messiah’s Al-Wasiyyat in the ideological sense, we had paid little attention to putting it into practice. One objective of Al-Wasiyyat was that just as we spend some of our money in the service of the faith during our lifetime, similarly after our death some of our property and money should go to the same cause. The Promised Messiah’s exhortation for making wills was not for the purpose of getting a plot in the Bahishti Maqbara of Qadian. To think in that way would be just to take his words literally. God’s paradise is very extensive, and the Promised Messiah instructed in Al-Wasiyyat that to inherit that Garden one must continue the striving to serve the faith even after death. Maulana Muhammad Ali further said that the Holy Quran has made it obligatory for everyone leaving behind any money or property to make a bequest, and what is meant is a bequest for charitable and religious endowments, and not for near and dear ones. According to the Shariah a maximum of one-third of one’s wealth can be willed for such purposes. The Promised Messiah instructed that at least one tenth should be willed, and he expressed his desire that the funds so collected should be spent on the propagation of Islam and spreading translations of the Holy Quran in different languages of the world.

    From 1936 onwards the campaign to urge the making of wills continued every year and members of the Jama‘at took part in it. On the occasion of the silver jubilee of the Anjuman a large part of the jubilee fund was raised by this means.”

    “From October till the annual gathering of December 1939 Maulana Muhammad Ali continuously toured the outside branches of the Jama‘at, visiting in addition to other cities Delhi and Quetta. A particular purpose he had in view in these visits was to organise the monthly subscriptions, so that every member should pay his dues according to the rate fixed by the Anjuman. He kept stressing this point in his Friday khutbas also during this entire period.”

    Link:
    http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2010/09/21/statements-of-mirza-mahmud-ahmad-answered-by-javed-ahmad-ghamdi/#comments

  8. Shahid:
    If you pay attention to other differences between Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement and Qadiani Ahmadiyya Organization, on the issues regarding Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib of Qadian, such as his character, his belieff, his claims, his statements, his writings, and his actions, you will keep on giving SCORES TO “LAHORIES” and you will be amazed how much scores “Lahories” get against Qadianis. But this will require some thing too much from you……(if i write them here, you might accuse me of an attack on you. so i will leave it).

    • I’m sorry, but the problem was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Your intellectual position is less tenable than that of the Qadianis. You are certainly less of a cult though.

  9. Interesting Observations:

    Badshah2000 wrote:
    “SHAME ON THESE CORRUPT LIARS!!!”
    Earlier he wrote:
    “As a current member of Ahmadiyya Jamaat,”

    It is interesting to see he very conviently uses profanities for those to whom he pays Chanda. What can be said of people like him in Qadiani Organization???

  10. I was, if i’m entirely honest, also under the impression that these ‘demands for chanda arrears’ was slightly over hyped. I personally was never really subjected to these cold calls (except once-and I kindly gave the woman a right telling off when she asked ‘how much you earning’) but then I wouldnt get the calls would I? This is because mother dearest takes the bullet for me and has been paying on my behalf for the last 24 odd years. I have never once paid myself and thought therefore, there was no obligation to cough up. This is not true or why else would my Mother be making payments of my behalf?
    Further, I only last week witnessed my brothers’ struggling to avoid their local chanda collector- he missed called my youngest brother’s phone 9 times in one evening! My brother paid £100 (despite being a student) and brilliantly put it as ‘i would pay a thousand to get that jerk off my back’!! LOL!
    it does exist and I would swear on oath if I had to!!!!!

  11. @ Shahid:
    “I’m sorry, but the problem was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Your intellectual position is less tenable than that of the Qadianis. You are certainly less of a cult though.”

    Because of your inability to read Urdu more than the Kindergarten or perhaps first grade level, (you have acknowledged your this weakness previously) you have depended on English translations of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mujaddid of 14th Islamic century, or writings of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement elders provided by Qadiani Organization or opponents of HMGA and LAM.

    There are two problems with you.
    One problem is that you have NOT read the translations provided by LAM.
    Second problem is that your weakness in ability to read Urdu has NOT stopped you from being JUDGMENTAL and giving your DECISIONS/ VERDICTS against the accused, with out listening/ reading the accused.
    If you are correct in your judgment then how come in impartial courts the Judges give decisions that:
    HMGA was a Mujaddid, and Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement people are Muslims???
    Have you thought about this???
    This requires HONESTY, FEAR OF ALLAH SWT, and MORAL COURAGE to say the truth!!!
    Read the following IMPARTIAL JUDGES DECISIONS:
    http://www.ahmadiyya.org/sa-case/intro.htm

    http://www.ahmadiyya.org/sa-case2/case.htm

    http://www.ahmadiyya.org/bookspdf/libel-case/index.htm

    • Whoever you are, whether you are RJ, or ZA, I don’t call you a non-Muslim. What’s the problem? No court would declare Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a Mujaddid though, that’s just silly. Courts don’t do that. As for these judgements, they don’t mean an awful lot. When I have not made takfeer on you, why worry? I do wish you’d drop your belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad though, he did write a lot of nonsense and you cannot prove that he didn’t.

    • Zahid or Rashid, whatever alias you are using

      South Africa was fooled. You people should have fought against the apartheid, instead of that you had a white judge declare you a Muslim. That is just stupid. I have the entire South Africa case. Trust me…I have read a great deal of books by the LAM, probably more than you have.

      MGAQ was a Kafir and so are you. Its that simple.

      MGAQ lied on the Quran and Hadeeth. All of his followers,,,irregardless of the brand name are losers and have no business with Islam.

      The biggest buyers of Muhammad Ali’s Quran was the Nation of Islam, or the Nation of KUFR. These are the people that ALI reached. That is just despecable.

      MGAQ started his fraud early in 1880, your forefathers were hoodwinked just like mine. I learned from the mistakes of my forefathers, you havent.

      You need to wake up and learn how to debate something intelligently and point for point. I have asked you many questions that you have avoided. Will you answer them now? Where is Zahid to help you….ur gonna need his help.

  12. @Shahid:
    “That’s unfair. I am a British citizen, but I don’t agree with my government much of the time. What of that?”

    You wrote the above quote in defense of Badshah2000.
    Well, first of all you don’t realize that it is because of hypercritic people like Badshah, the Qadiani Organization is still alive. If people like him had stopped the Chanda Contributions this would have damaged to great extent the Qadiani Organization. If people show courage to STOP paying Chanda, then you will see the difference. No criminal charges can be filed against them. There are no penal laws to punish such non-payers. It is only their fear. What kind of ethics are these??? On One hand they use profanities and on the other hand they contribute and support financially.
    Secondly, unlike you a British Citizen, Badshah has choice NOT to pay Chanda.

    Now coming to you:
    I’m sure you are GLAD TO BE SUBJECT OF QUEEN VICTORIA’S PROGENY!!!
    As being a British Subject you can express your differences with the British Raj in UK.
    I’m sure you like this privilege and are happy about it.
    But you don’t hesitate in criticizing some one who over 100 years ago appreciated the same quality of RULE OF QUEEN VICTORIA AND HER PROGENY.
    Why these double standards???

  13. @Shahid:
    “I don’t call you a non-Muslim. What’s the problem?”

    Thank you and I’m glad to read your opinion. I hope you have the same opinion about some one who recited Kalima Shahada and made claim of Mujaddid of 14th Islamic Century.

    “No court would declare Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a Mujaddid though, that’s just silly. Courts don’t do that.”

    May be it is news for you. The courts DID DECLARE Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as Mujaddid. This was important for courts and Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement to clear the misunderstanding created about HMGA status and claims by Qadiani Khaifa 2 and his followers and Opponents of HMGA, who are/were MISINFORMED by QK2 and his followers writings.

    “As for these judgements, they don’t mean an awful lot.”

    You’re employing a defense mechanism ‘Denial’ to calm your anxiety that is created by you coming to know of Impartial court judgments.

    “When I have not made takfeer on you, why worry?”

    Well it is not question of Takfeer on me. I care less for this. The problem is that because of false accusations on HMGA and LAM, supported by people like you today the condition has reached in Pakistan, especially, that anyone who calls himself a Muslim, finds two people declaring him Kaffir. And not just stopping there but also literally killing each other. This is last stage of Allah’s WRATH on any nation, when people among it start killing each other. Moreover, because of people like you Muslims have stopped reading and taking advantage of LAM literature, for defense and peaceful propagation of Islam, so much needed in countries like USA, UK, Netherlands, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Australia.

    “I do wish you’d drop your belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad”

    Does holding a belief that HMGA was just a Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Hijra converts a reciter of Kalma-Shahada into Kaffir???

    “though, he [HMGA] did write a lot of nonsense and you cannot prove that he didn’t.”

    Again you’re JUDGMENTAL and giving your DECISIONS/ VERDICTS against the accused, with out listening/ reading the accused, and especially when your ability to read Urdu is absolute rudimentary!!!

    • A Mujaddid is someone who renews (ie, revives) the Deen. Inferred from the definition, his effect must be large and long-lasting.

      Whether or not Ahmadis argue that it was the “mullahs” who destroyed Mirza’s popularity is irrelevant. The sabab (means) do not matter. What matters is that Mirza’s works had little to no effect on the Muslim world, and honestly, even most Ahmadis do not read his writings.

      And then there’s the issue of ‘Renewing’. To renew something you must take it back to its roots. There are demonstrable differences between traditional Islamic belief, as documented by the earliest Muslims, and Ahmadiyya.

  14. @Shahid:
    “The second wasn’t even worthy of comment.”

    Typical defense mechanism against anxiety creating discussion. Just a total resistance.

    • Please come back to the topic of discussion. Really, we don’t have time for your games. You have your own blog for that. I don’t need to read Urdu to see just how out there MGA was.

      • Exactly. You are basing your views on the Qur’an, not someone’s garbled Urdu writings. Anything after the Qur’an is ultimately not needed.

        Its amazing how Allah sent 1 book in Arabic to humanity that guided billions, while Mirza’s Urdu writings trapped very few.

  15. @Shahid:
    “Please come back to the topic of discussion.”

    Yes, I agree that we should work on ways to STOP FINANCIAL SUPPLY of Qadiani Khalifa 2 follower Khalifas. This is some thing on which I started work more than 10 years ago. Unfortunately, people like Badshah2000 kept opposing my efforts first by financially supporting Qadiani Khalifas and second by taking the focus off of them and on to HMGA.

    “Really, we don’t have time for your games.”

    I don’t know why you are calling my efforts as “games”??? All I’m doing is to help people to stop focusing on HMGA. Wheather he was right or wrong has nothing to do with today’s Qadianis financially supporting Qadiani Khalifas family.

    “I don’t need to read Urdu to see just how out there MGA was.”

    You’re supporting my point that without reading HMGA’s OWN Urdu writings or its translations by LAM you’re JUDGMENTAL about him and giving your “VERDICTS”.
    I would suggest you to tell all your friends to hold their “verdicts” until they have read HMGA and I mean time focus on financial frauds of Qadiani Khalifa Khandan

    • You’re treating Urdu as if it’s some sort of complicated language such as Arabic, the language of the Quran? Really, how hard is it to translate a bunch of Urdu writings from the late 19th century? How hard is it to translate that he had erectile dysfunction? lol I don’t understand you stupid Pakis..you treat Urdu as if it is some sort of Holy language, or that the Muslim world only centers around Pakistan. It’s utterly ignorant and pathetic IMO. Seriously, you don’t need to know Urdu to understand what a nutcase this man was. And besides, the English translations are from your official websites, so they SHOULD be accurate right? Your arugement is total utter nonsense. Are MGA’s writings on the same level as the Holy Quran?

      • I totally agree. These pakistanis ahmadis treat their mother tongue as if it is Allah’s gift or something. Its really annoying. They have translated the Quran into 100000 languages, they consider arabic translate-able but urdu is some type of pristine language.

        • My point exactly. What i find amusing they translated (i use the term loosely) the Quran in so many languages..yet they still haven’t had any significant impact outside the South Asian community. Why doesn’t he look at Mirza’s ‘English’ revelations, which all are very poor in basic English grammar that Qadianis have to put words in brackets for them to make sense!

        • Unfortunately, this is not alone in ahmadiyya. Many pakistani muslims also fall into this idiotic thinking. They live in pakistan and they think all the muslims in the world live in pakistan and are pakistanis..until they go to england and there’s a big culture shock seeing black, morrocans, bosnians etc.
          But this has nothing to do with the topic so i’m shutting my mouth before i get in trouble lol

        • MGAQ wrote (1908) that Allah was not bound by any grammar. He was trying to make an argument that would support his apparent grammatical errors.

          here is the reference:

          (4) [Arabic] I shall safeguard all those who
          belong to the house against this disease—such
          disease as is infectious. (From this disease means
          from this affliction).

          The Promised Messiah[as] said: On surface there seems to be a grammatical flaw in this revelation. However, Allah the Almighty is not bound by the grammar, of which there are examples in the Holy Qur’an also.

          http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Tadhkirah.pdf

          PAGE 1000

      • As a Pakistani, I agree with this statement (though you should chill out with your rhetoric haha)

        Pakistanis seem to think Pakistan is the center of the Muslim world and Ahmadis have definitely taken this. That’s why when they say things like “the Mullahs in the Muslim world are all Jahil!!!111!”, they’re referring to some obscure village in the Punjab.

        While studying Urdu, I have come across extreme statements like “Had Allah not wanted to inconvenience the Prophet SAAWS, he would have revealed the Qur’an in Urdu”. Utter nonsense. I acknowledge that Urdu is an amazing language, but trust me…anyone who studies Arabic a bit more than “Ana Farhan, Kayfa Haluka?” will see that Arabic is an absolutely stunning language, and the Qur’an is the height of its expression.

        Urdu, by comparison, is nothing.

        • I am Indian…my great grandparents spoke Urdu. My family has been in the Western world for generations. Urdu is definitely a beautiful language don’t get me wrong, but putting it as the same par as that of Arabic is utterly ridiculous.

          “Had Allah not wanted to inconvenience the Prophet SAAWS, he would have revealed the Qur’an in Urdu”
          Where do people come up with this nonsense..I hate it when people say these baseless things with absolutely no proof. Where wud someone get a statement ridiculous as this? lol

        • actually this isn’t alone in the pakistani world. There are some mosques in Indonesia that are considered so holy that if they do ‘pilgrimage’ around them 7 times it’s as equal as if the person went to hajj. :s where do people come up with these things?

  16. From Zahid Aziz:
    It should be remembered that the urging of donations and chanda upon his followers by Hazrat Mirza sahib for the service of Islam is only in obedience to the injunctions of the Holy Quran to Muslims to strive hard in the way of Allah with their wealth and possessions. It is in no sense a novel institution invented by him.

    In early Islam Muslims made tremendous financial sacrifices for the cause of Islam, the stories about which are commonly related by Muslims. Hazrat Mirza sahib told his followers that the sacrifices required of them are much lighter than those of early Muslims, as they had to risk their lives in battles, which we don’t have to do.

    • Urging donations is not the same as Requiring Payments.

      I pay Zakah. That is obligatory on me. I also support my local masjid. But, that isn’t wajib on me.

      The Prophet SAAWS told the believers to support the Muslim community, but it was never made an obligation (ie, wajib). If the Chanda system was optional but highly recommended, I would applaud it. But its a requirement otherwise you get disciplined. The Prophet SAAWS never did such a thing.

  17. -and just where in AL-QURAN
    is this Chandaa mentioned

    -don`t they at all see whats it all about??

    May ALLAH SWT Give Hidayyat to those whom want it with their whole hearts. Ameen

  18. @The Banned Physican can you show us from Quran or Hadith where it says if you dont pay 1/16th of your income there is no need for you to be a part of Islam and you will be excommunicated from Islam?

    “upto 3 months after the publication of this advertisement, we will wait for a response from every one who has taken baith that how much he accepts to donate to this system on monthly basis and if no reply is recieved in three months then his name will be cut off from the baith…. and if someone after accepting to give donation, did not send the donation for three months then his name would also be cut off.”
    (Collection of Advertisement vol.3 p.468-469)

    If you can’t find anything in the Quran or Hadith it clearly means mirza qadiani altered the Sharia as he has added a new law!

  19. @TU:
    The problem with opponents of HMGA is that they have picture of HMGA as presented to them by Qadiani organization. And this is what Qadiani Khalifas 2 and his follower Khalifas wanted/ want.

    Your: “@The Banned Physican can you show us from Quran or Hadith where it says if you dont pay 1/16th of your income there is no need for you to be a part of Islam and you will be excommunicated from Islam?”

    TU, you should put this Question to Qadianis and not to OPPONENT OF QADIANIS like myself. Your Question is similar to Saudi Arabia accepting India’s claim that Pakistani State Sponsored Terrorism and accusses Pakistan!!

    If you follow discussion on Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement blog, link to thread given in my first post in this host thread, you will see, what HMGA has written is NOT what his opponents on this forum think.

    • The LAM is very dumb. You believe MGAQ to be an honest person. That itself is KUFR.

      Over the years I have asked you over 50+ questions that you have avoided. You never answer questions. I think you foam at the mouth and sit in a wheel chair, when u get free time u use something called the internet.

      Why are you spamming this board? Your posts have no substance at all.

      • Kufr, in the fullest sense, can only come about by denying an aspect of Islam (Takdheeb) Saying ‘Mirza was an honest man’ is fishy and is a stone’s throw away from Kufr, but itself isn’t Kufr. But Ahmadiyya itself is Kufr. Its not Islam. That’s undeniable.

        • If you prayed in the same mosques with them and went to their tarbiyyat camps and kissed the hands of their khalifas, and had your name given by the khalifa and paid over 10k in chanda and gave time for waqar-e-umul on sundays…..If your parents and brothers and sisters were still in and trapped and your cousins were brainwashed…—then its absolutley KUFR.

          Sorry for venting….My eyes have seen tooo much.

          • actually i’ve watched their jalsa salana on MTA (trying not to fall asleep from how boring the channel actually is), and like the people form a chain, one man touches the kilafa, then another touches him and so on, and they’re like praying. And i’m like what utter nonsense is this? Does the kilafa have some sort of magical powers or is he closer to god than another? Their glorification of their ‘kilafahs’ is it self shirk.

    • I will write a thread that will expose the LAM and their belief system. Your spamming of this board is my motivation. You should have never came here.

      Zahid cant save you…

  20. From Tariq:
    @Rashid,
    I have clear memories of regular chanda payments and collection while growing up in LAM. It mattered whether you regularly paid chanda or not. The amount could be small or large according to your situation, but had to be regular.

    Any organization needs funds to do its work and we are no exception. From what I can tell, the Qadianis are more strict with those who are delinquent and perhaps penalize them in various ways. We, IMO, happen to be more lenient.

    From what I have read, some of the criticism on the internet of the Qadiani jama’at by ex-Qadianis refers to a draconian system of chanda collection. I am not sure how much of it is true nor do I care, to be honest with you.

    To be fair and generally speaking, any large organization engaged in various activities and with a large staff and officers needs a steady supply of funds. I don’t want to get into how they use their funds, as that is their business.

    I do feel that when the Qadianis are criticized for their chanda collection (and I am not just referring to your post…I have heard this from some ex-Qadanis as well), the LAM is juxtaposed against them in such a way that the impression is given that we are some loose organization, where whether you pay or not, no problem you are just fine.

    Yes we do give various jama’ats (across the world) a lot of autonomy in running their administrative affairs, but we do not lose focus on our collective goals and people open their hearts when funds are needed for the propagation of Islam.

    These are just my observation and my opinion.

    • Whatever this guy is saying is irrelevant. Here’s why. Muslims are more generous than any type of Mirzai. That is a fact. Do the sums. Despite your draconian or non-draconian systems of collection, you collect less money per capita than we do. By not being oppressive, we free people up to be more giving of their own accord. That is the beauty of Islam. We don’t impose a jagga tax, we leave it to the generosity of our Muslim brothers and sisters, who are more generous by far than the Qadianis. Can’t speak for the Lahoris, who are such an insignificant minority, that they’re not even worth talking about. I’d just leave them alone.

  21. @Shahid:

    “Whatever this guy is saying is irrelevant.”
    Again you’re giving your verdict. Would you care to tell us how, why it is irrelevant if LAM collects financial contributions for peaceful defense and propagation of Islam in Europe and North America???

    “Muslims are more generous than any type of Mirzai.”
    Sure you are CORRECT. Muslims who are NOT formally members of LAM are more in numbers than LAM. So, it is expected from non-LAM member Muslims. BTW: MAJORITY of Muslims living in Europe and North America follow HMGA teachings by their actions, although they don’t verbally acknowledge it. This is because either they don’t realize it, or are scared to verbally acknowledge it.
    I take by your words by “any type of Mirzai” you mean those Muslims who practically follow HMGA teachings. THIS INCLUDES YOU TOO. E.g. You believe that it is WRONG to wage a military struggle against your Monarch and British Christian rulers while PEACEFULLY, HAVING FULL FREEDOM OF RELIGION, living in Great Britain as a SUBJECT OF QUEEN VICTORIA’S PROGENY!!

    “That is a fact. Do the sums. Despite your draconian or non-draconian systems of collection, you collect less money per capita than we do. By not being oppressive, we free people up to be more giving of their own accord. That is the beauty of Islam.”

    This is no-brainer. Catholic Church and Christians all over the world collect more financial contributions than Muslims. Simply because they are more in numbers!! This is the reason given by a Muslim to Christian priest.
    UNFORTUNATELY, Most of the money given by their own accord by Muslims goes towards the TERRORIST activities.

    “We don’t impose a jagga tax, we leave it to the generosity of our Muslim brothers and sisters, who are more generous by far than the Qadianis.”

    Yes, you are RIGHT, TILL YOU EXCLUDE jagga tax collected by Muslims in Karachi, Pakistan by MQM or in Tribal Regions in Pakistan by Talibans.

    “Can’t speak for the Lahoris, who are such an insignificant minority, that they’re not even worth talking about. I’d just leave them alone.”

    One reason for you to not being able to speak for LAM is because you are NOT able to find fault in them, at least in matters of Chanda collection. If anything they should be collecting little aggressively to finance the GRAND PROJECTS they are working on for peaceful defense and propagation of Islam in Europe and North America. If LAM has vast financial resources like non-LAM member Muslims or even like Qadiani Khalifas, they (LAM) would be able to bring peace to the world very soon. LAM needs financial resources in USA, today the way it were needed by Khawaja Kamal Ud Din sahib in UK in first half of 20th century, for the peaceful defense and propagation of Islam.

    • sigh LAM is a minority of a small breakaway kufar sect of Islam..you can’t find much info because you all are even more insignificant than than Ahamadis. It’s amazing you speak so foundly for LAM..yet you all are split..1 group belive he’s a prophet while the next just thinks he’s a reformer? Doesn’t that just give you a hint something is wrong?
      Also, if I’m not mistaken, Shahid is from mainstream Ahmadiyya, not LAM. He talks from his point of view and his experience. Now why would he talk about LAM, an insignificant minority that he hasn’t even been part of?

  22. @ The Banned physician

    Are you really a Physician because some of your statements are quite hard to digest and far from the truth. Muslims in North America follow Islam and what MGAQ taught is not Islam but a cult system based on his own fancy theories. In fact it is an attempt to hijack Islam and take the place of its Prophet (Pbuh) nauzobillah! So be careful of what you say. Either you donot know what Ahmadiyyat is or you have full knowledge and are still trying to defend this fraud.

  23. @ The Banned physician to be frank you LAM dosnt go towards propagating Islam it goes towards spreading filth & fitnah. It dosnt matter whether you believe mirza was a Prophet, Imam, Mujaddid or a Teacher to claim he was truthful and that he was a muslim only makes you kafir because your stating the Enemy of Allah and his Rasool SAW was honest in the filth he wrote against Islam.

    “Most of the money given by their own accord by Muslims goes towards the TERRORIST activities.” http://www.justgiving.com/pakistanfloods

    .. Hmm.. just shows how jealous you mirzai’z really are

    May Allah Curse The Liars

  24. @M.K. and ALL OTHERS:
    M.K. wrote:
    “@ The Banned physician

    Are you really a Physician because some of your statements are quite hard to digest and far from the truth. Muslims in North America follow Islam and what MGAQ taught is not Islam but a cult system based on his own fancy theories. In fact it is an attempt to hijack Islam and take the place of its Prophet (Pbuh) nauzobillah! So be careful of what you say. Either you donot know what Ahmadiyyat is or you have full knowledge and are still trying to defend this fraud.”

    BUT SINCE MODERATOR SHAHID OR HIS FREINDS DID NOT POST MY REPLY TO M.K. ABOVE POSTED, AND IT WAS DELETED.

    SO, I AM LEAVING THIS DISCUSSION.
    BYE.
    SO,

    • Go spam your own board. We dont want you. When you develop a brain cell, then…you can come back.

      Is is true that some monkeys never evolved into humans? Can Zahid comment?

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