Ahmadis as Silent Sufferers?

The very muted Ahmadiyya response after the terrorist atrocities in Lahore have been commented on in many fora.

While the attack on the Ahmadiyya was a terrorist atrocity, and I condemn the perpetrators, it did not exist in a vacuum, or in a state of ‘silent suffering’. Please watch what the Ahmadiyya leadership said on Fox News earlier in May. Their position was factually incorrect as well as rhetorically inflammatory to all peace-loving Muslims:

http://bit.ly/biw7aP

While the terrorist attacks are deplorable, I really wish that in the current atmosphere in Pakistan, where the United States Army is attacking Pakistani soil almost every day, the Ahmadiyya can do better than to take indefensible positions based on false information, and do not use that to bash the vast mainstream Muslim community on the most anti-Muslim platform in the United States.

What happened in Lahore was an atrocity, but Nasim Mahdi’s campaign in the United States earlier in May was not silent suffering — not by a long shot!

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40 thoughts on “Ahmadis as Silent Sufferers?

  1. I don’t know if one should be using the would ‘terrorism’ or just state that it was an act of violence or murder. Because it seems this word ‘terrorism’ is only being used to target people of a particular religion only. If this word was used correctly in every act of violence committed by every other group out there then probably it would make some sense, but unfortunately it is not.

    Although we condone killing of any innocent in any society, I fully agree that Ahmadiyya group are no silent sufferers. You can actually write many volumes of books on this subject itself, on how this jamaat has created problems for muslims and in return for itself since its inception by the founder MGA.

    But to pinpoint the problem, it is the Ahmadi jamaat leaders like Naseem Mehdi, their mullahs and political activists who are to be blamed. Their shortsightedness, selfish desires and hatred has mislead them into a spiralling conflict with the muslim Ummah that largely are simple, ordinary and very tolerant people. By continuing on this path the Ahmadiyya group risks itself into creating more hatred for itself.

  2. I have written time and time again in the last week that Naseem Mahdi should be held liable for the death of innocent ahmadis in lahore.

    Naseem Mahdi said, “I am a believer in GOD, if someone decides to do it, i will consider myself that I have given my life for a good cause”.

    ^ that was the statement that caught the attention of ignorance organization or more properly terms “the taliban”.

    The Taliban appear to have been listening to these statements and consequently sent a message of their own.

    In this case Naseem Mahdi was not injured but the innocent ahmadis in lahore had to pay for the statements of this clown. I am still grieving this unfortunate sequence of events. I pray to Allah that the Taliban leave the ahmadis alone in general and the humans of the world to be more specific.

  3. According to Al Qaeda’s No 2, Ahmadis were a target years ago.

    http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006/04/zawahiri_tape_transcript_to_th.php

    Just as they were targets in 1930s India, and post independence Pakistan. Our efforts in the world are to tell the world that real Jihad is that of Islamic revival in its true form. Not through violence and killing of apostates. etc.

    We can exercise our right to express our opinion in US and Europe. And even that seems unbearable to you guys..

    And when it comes to condemnation of Lahore attacks, please consider that many Ahmadis are apostates and the rest are Zindiques according to your scholars and teachers. Both deserve death. Such condemnations are nothing but hypocrisy.. Unless you do not consider Ahmadis as apostates or zindiques.

  4. I was thinking the same thing, but to be frank, I really don’t expect much from the likes of Mirza Masroor. Pointing out their hypocrisy (ie, they don’t care about Palestine, Kashmir, Iraq and ONLY condemn Muslims) is not really my concern. Why? Because Mirza Masroor is not my leader. I give more allegience to Sr. Ingrid Mattson, president of ISNA. Thus, I don’t seek anything from Masroor.

    And besides, Fox News is a discredited news agency anyways in terms of factual content (I say that as an American-Conservative). They literally say CAIR, which has run a decade long anti-terrorism campaign, is associated with terrorists.

    • Fox news is watched by the people who vote Republican thinking that Islam is a threat to their way of life. I think Jamaat has chosen the right medium to tell these people that Muslims want peace as much as them.

      As for Ahmadis not speaking up for the plight of Muslims, how many times do I need to tell you that Jamaat always speaks out against these attrocities. If you want street protests and flag burnings. We don’t do that.

      • Jamaat has hated Muslims since the days of Mirza’s hateful, murder-inciting polemics. Nothing has changed. You say Muslims die because they don’t believe in Mirza, whereas when Mirzais are murdered, we sympathize and condemn it. We don’t say it was because you are cult victims, but because lunatics killed them. Big difference. You stick to sucking up to channels of hatred, when Allah commands you to avoid them. That tells us everything.

      • @Lutf

        Please state the fact. Ahmadiyya cult is too busy with their obsession against true Islam and muslims so where will it have the time to even sympathise with the legitimate cause of muslims. It is not possible that your jamaat that has so much hatred against muslims that they will speak out for the cause of muslims. In fact your mullahs have left no stone unturned in damaging live of innocent muslims living in the West. Please donot ask us for proofs now as if you dont know anything. This is the first hand experience of many of us. So either you reform yourself to the right Islam or stay misguided for life. The ball is in your court.

  5. if this is the valid theory and justify the murders of the innocent ahmadies. then i present an other theory that shall justify the killing of each and every muslim by the hand of jews and christians.
    though this theory is as much wrong as the theory of ahmed

    my theory is all of u guys are beaten and killed because u guys believe that one day Jesus will come and he will then kill jews and christians indiscriminately .

    because of this believe u are beaten/ killed every day

    waoo , i figured out the reason why u guys are beaten .
    what u say , the famous rationlist ????

    • I dont even understand what you are saying…

      My response was that ahamdiyyat should not have re-entered into the realm of politics. In the 1930’s the ahmadis entered politics and failed miserably, Allama Iqbal attacked them as well as the Ahrars. This was when Zafrullah Khan advised your daddy (mahmud) to tone down the KAFIR policy.

      Get the picture? And yes…i am famous..

    • @Khalid Nawaz

      Looks like we are back to where we started !

      Truly, the hatred the Ahmadi cult leaders and some members hold against ordinary muslims is amazing.

      Your belief that all muslims believe that one day jesus as will come and kill all jews and christians is quite amazing.

      We are fully aware that that this is the result of brainwashing by your mullahs and leaders. Now you have grown into such an evagelical Ahamdi who will not spare anyone from firey and highly biased and irrational oratory assaults.

  6. Salam,

    In my humble view jealousy is the real factor here. Jam’aat al Amadiyyat Isalami has trough the power of the Holy Qur’aan and its rational and spiritual understanding reached to the ends of the earth.

    Many Shias or Wahhabi call other Muslims Kafir and spread dire insults against the Khalifas every other day openly yet they are a ok with you guys because they don’t really threaten the clerical dictatorship, the mullahs candy store in where they reign supreme.

    When you have a choice to either choose the Sunnat or Razool Kareem (saw) or the wolve pack of mullahs you choose blindness towards Hazret Khaatama Nabien (saw).

    Lets make this clear. Mullas turned against Jam’aat because Jam’aat was spreading and the influence of the mullahs was waning thin. They became afraid and demanded our Jam’aat to be banned. You insult Muslims worldwide by stating that they are too stupid to decipher what is Islam and what is not. Your clericks decide upon a role that even Razool Allah (saw) was not given.

    I am going to do something you guys can never do and I will quote the Qur’aan in my favor;

    “And thy people have rejected it, though it is the truth. Say, ‘I am not a guardian over you” Al-An`am Chapter 6 : Verse 67

    Shame, shame and shame

    Wasalam

    • @yusuf mirza

      Please calm down!

      This web site is not a MGA family run business, where you can use harsh language and false accusations, and in the end quote from the holy Quran out of context.

    • Yusuf same kind of excuse can be given by Rashid Khalifah, Bahai Faith or Gohar Shahi followers even

      all u talked about it like a typically brain washed ahmadis Mullah Mullah thing, which shows that u have not studied Islam nor u have listen to the good muslim scholors

    • I started reading your post but 2 paragraphs in I realized it’s all the same nonsense I’ve heard before.
      1) Jealous of your growth? What growth? 1.2 billion Muslims in the world and growing even quicker. How much Ahmadiya has? 2 million? (200 million claim is plain ridiculous, your cilafa doesn’t even have enough sense to even make up a sensible number) And where are these 2 million? Pakistani Brown Punjabi faces? You’re ‘established’ in 100 whatever countries…but what you fail to mention in these countries it’s basicaly like what…one thousand followers? And of these followers how much are actualy converts or maybe just Pakistani/Indian immigrants? How many people even knows about the Ahmadiya? Even Muslims in in the subcontinent don’t even know who you are. The sad part is, you are so zealous missionaries yet you still fail to convert us. Why? Because we know it’s a load of garbage.
      You see, Muslims do have problems, but the funny thing is, we have over a THOUSAND years of history, and the ummah is spread among vast different cultures, languages and regions. We have our own countries, resources etc. Any sensible person would know that among 1.2 billion pple that there’s going to be differences in opinion! Qadianis are even divided whether or not Mirza was even a prophet or not….no he’s a reformer..no he’s a prophet…no he’s just a prophet in the metaphorical sense…utter rubbish! And you’re just 2 mil!

      • more guesses at numbers. We have registers and actual people’s details. What do you have?…”probably this many, probably that many”.
        Did you go around the world to count these one by one? Did you ask every single person in every country if they’ve herd of ahmadiyyat? And it’s 1.2bn muslims in over a thousand years, compared to 160million in 100years. You do the math.

        • You are deluded beyond belief. Your thinking flies in the face of a cursory analysis, common sense and the evidence. You forget, we know how the fraud happened. It’s one of the reasons we left. Your cult has repeatedly claimed figures as diverse as 10 million to 220 million in the same time period, so you don’t know how many of you there are. You are not thinking this through, you are just self deluded and until you stop deluding yourself, talking with you is not going to be fruitful. Start getting rational.

  7. TM: you wrote:
    “Ahmadiyya cult is too busy with their obsession against true Islam and muslims”.

    Ahmadiy jama’at is not obsessed in this fashion. Im a born ahmady. The oldest Ahmadi i kno personally is 95…my grandad…and we have never herd of ahmadi’s preaching hate against anyone…..think about that before you state this again.

    you also previously wrote:
    “selfish desires and hatred” about Ahmady leaders.
    Which part of “all peaceful muslims should raise their voices together” is selfish desires and hatred?

    Khalid nawaz: with all due respect, anyone being beaten or killed is wrong. and its not for us to say why its happening, and state in a fashion as you just did…”woah, i just figured out….”

    I have also read things about other muslims believing Jesus will return and kill all pigs, christians, etc. from many sources. but i will not condemn this as fact if you say you do not believe this…..do you see how it makes no sense at all for me to do so?

    As far as the topic of this thread is concerned, as far as i can see, they simply requested all peaceful muslims to come forward and work as one against terrorism.
    In pakistan, ahmadies are silent sufferers in the sense that there are actual laws against ahmadies. I know of ahmadies being sent to court/jail simply for saying assalamo alaikum.
    My own family members including my cousin who was 14 at the time, were sent to jail for supposedly having burnt pages of the Quran, which I know they didnt do. In this sense, ahmadies can be silent sufferers….but that’s not to say no one else is either. why has our jamaat speaking out against terrorism, while asking other peaceful muslims to join us in doing so, caused a stir?

    • @lordknows

      You seem to be a bit more reasonable person than most Ahmadis I have met personally.

      First there is one point in your post that I agree with wherein you have rightly criticized comments made by khalid nawaaz. This is the type of rhetoric that I was referring to.

      You have rebutted my comments by saying that you have not come across any Ahmadi who spreads hatred against muslims.

      Once again I don’t blame you for what you say, but I go by my GOD given senses of hearing, seeing and reading etc. My first hand experience is that the amount of hatred spread by the Ahmadiyya jamaat and its murabbis and leaders against muslims in general is unbelievable.

      Br. you cannot deny this. They go all out in their bashing in the name of voicing their opinion and freedom of speech and persecution and blah blah………! But in the end they only cause damage to poor innocent muslims who have nothing to do with the plight of Ahmadis. Lets take an example, in post 9/11 era Ahmadis have been very actively propagating hatred against largely peaceful muslims in a manner that would even pale the worst enemies of Islam. How can we ignore that? All muslims and their scholars have condemned the attacks of 9/11 inspite of whether it was done by any muslims or not (hopefully you know the truth about it). So why is there a need for Naseem Mahdi and others to come again on Fox TV and bash muslims falsely for not being loyal etc……..!

      Why dont you talk enough about major attrocities being committed by the millitary industrial complex in this fake war on terror killing millions of people around the World today.

      Ahmadis say that suicide bombing is wrong. We muslims go above and beyond what you say, and we say any kind of bombing against innocents is wrong.

      But you only target crimes done by muslims and treat everything else as kosher or remain silent. Imagine if the taxi driver that killed so many in UK was a muslim (God forbid) Naseem Mahdi and band would again be on TV bashing all muslims for this crime.

      Please think carefully about what wrong your jamaat has been doing for so many years. Don’t believe in what your murabbis are telling you, for they are big liars and very dubious when it comes to playing with teachings of Islam and politics. They are only interested in your chanda and cheap poilitics.

      • How can i not deny this? there isnt one single piece of hard evidence. The jamaat has never bashed peaceful ahmadies. All they’ve done in the video is asked all peaceful muslims to join us in raising our voices to the public in the same way. and they’ve said this against the extremists. not against all other muslims. Please give me some hard evidence if ahmadi’s really do spread hatred.
        Whereas i can give you outub video links of hatred against ahmadies…..just search it online. whereas you wont find hatred form ahmadies in the way you say, agains all other muslims, as long as you hear and read everything as a whole in the right context.

        “Ahmadis have been very actively propagating hatred against largely peaceful muslims”
        Ahmadies have only said that the muslims who do this are not following islam. and we do not associate our jamaat with this…which part of this isnt true, and which part is against all other peaceful muslims?

        Remember the part in naseem mahdi’s interview where they ask him if he believes america is a problem? he clearly states there’s alot to discuss, but that’s no reason to kill innocent people”
        So which part of this is ONLY against extremist muslims?
        He did not go on tv to bash other muslims. he went on tv to defend ahmadies. and the main reason for this is to raise enough awareness in order to at least change the wrong laws that go against our human rights, in countries like pakistan.

        Plus Bilal’s point is correct too. what naseem mahdi said is per islamic teaching…..and you’re calling it bashing.

        • @Lordknows

          You have revealed some truth. I appreciate that.

          By the way you have tried your best to defend actions of Naseem Mahdi. I know what kind of notorious person he is and his mullahs too.

          What you see him on tv as defending Ahmadis and believe that he is trying to change the wrong laws in Pakistan is your side of the story.

          I have a right to disagree, and see it as a low blow on the belly of mainstream muslims, in front of conservative media and inciting them to hate muslims and create trouble for them.

          Actually what is happening is two important things:

          (1) In post 9/11 era there are so many misconceptions against Islam and muslims in the West.

          (2) Ahmadiyya jamaat leaders and mullahs have lost all educational and moral grounds to prove their faith is right.

          So taking advantage of this situation, on one hand they are supporting these holy wars created by the millitary industrial complex and on the other hand they have now resorted to all kinds of ugly tactics against muslims and their countries by provoking the people of other faith to get involved and take actions against the largely peaceful muslims who have nothing to do with your jamaats self created problems.

          There is no other group that is involved in such dirty practices.

          Also no other religion will tolerate infringement on their faith (if someone does to them what your jamaat has done to muslims), I will guarantee you that.

          Majority of muslims don’t even know what Ahmadiyya is and they don’t even care, leave alone the persecution that you talk about. In fact I have seen Ahmadis create more problems for muslims than the other way around.

          You want to compare persecution look at what muslims have gone through in palestine, chechnya, iraq, afghanistan, gujarat……….etc. But they bear with patience and pray to Allah for relieving their pain and suffering. In no way they use dirty tactics like your jamaat does?

          In the end I know no matter what we say or do it will not please your jamaat. You want us to become like you lost and misguided in faith and complete subservient to the masters instead of GOD almighty with no backbone to even stand and say to the aggressors that you are wrong even when they commit grave attrocities.

          To tell you the truth I have more respect for people of other faith who walked in protests against these unjust wars and raised their voices upon killing of innocent people in countries like Iraq. Whereas your jamaat’s hypocracy is very clear lie when you can, cheat when you can, fool when you can and make hay while the sun is shining.

          These in my opinion are just as true and loyal Americans and Europeans as anyone else. In fact they stand up for justice even if it goes against their own governments decisions.

  8. I heard what Mr. Mehdi said and it was as per Islamic teachings. Islam asks every Muslim to be loyal to their homeland. Even if you don’t agree to Mr. Mehdi (I.e. Islamic teachings) then nobody can kill someone in Pak on basis of what the member of same community said in US. If it can be done (these days Muslim have a habit of devising crazy logics to justified killing ’infidels’) , then no Muslim should object to US drones killing innocents in Pak tribal area as Muslims in other parts of the world give more inflammatory and hateful statements and fatwas.
    Didn’t American Muslims participated in White House Iftar parties much after Iraq & Afghan invasion and nobody objected. But there are people who have denial and hatred embedded in them, which are always after reasons to justify and expand hatred and such disease has no remedy except killing oneself for one’s own mentality. And Ahmadiyya has many such folks like you.

  9. Attending an Iftar party is not the same as giving satisfaction to Fox News by validating the false premise that Muslims don’t speak up. Problem is: Muslim leaders avoid Fox News just because their premises are wrong and their news is propaganda.

    Those marginal Muslims that give anti-Muslim inflammatory statements are just that: marginal paid lackeys. If that is what Ahmadiyya and Nasim Mahdi are, then I have no difference of opinion with you.

  10. Lordknows

    brother please prove it that you are 160 million around the globe and we will put forward our analysis as well .

  11. TM, one question…what dirty tactics? Give me hard evidence of ONE.
    What was basically said on Fox news, and please read carefully, because no offence, but u dont seem to understand basic english….
    All Muslims against the terrorists should come together and speak up. When asked why dont other group speak up IN THE SAME WAY, Naseem Mahdi answered “u should ask them”.
    Now….what…are…u…talking …about? Please, you’ve lost me, where are you getting this hate from ahmadies from? Go to youtube…hard evidence of the hatred that goes against ahmadies. Plain and simple. I cant believe you cannot understand this. In fact 2ahmady mosques were raided just last week…..because of them being Ahmady mosques….is that not clear enough? While you have no evidence of your claim that Ahmadies are spreading hatred and abuse.
    Im not saying all other muslims are bad….but there are some muslims out there that are attacking ahmadies…ahmadies ARE being attacked because of our faith. AND ahmadies are not attacking any other muslims. If we are speaking out, its against the extremists…and we’re asking other peaceful muslims to join us and speak out in the same way. which (although they do their part, which i am not ignoring, or calling insufficient) they have not done in the same way, which we are asking them to join us in, otherwise naseem mahdi wouldnt have been asked that question in the first place. Why would we then go and insult or attack you?

    You say:
    “By the way you have tried your best to defend actions of Naseem Mahdi. I know what kind of notorious person he is and his mullahs too.”

    Do you know him? personally?…….seriously?

    Then you say:
    “What you see him on tv as defending Ahmadis and believe that he is trying to change the wrong laws in Pakistan is your side of the story.”
    Well, ive explained what he’s said….its basic english, and you have no reason or proof to believe otherwise, but fair enough, i have to agree: you have the right of your opinion.

    You also say:
    “I have a right to disagree, and see it as a low blow on the belly of mainstream muslims, in front of conservative media and inciting them to hate muslims and create trouble for them.”
    Again, your right of opinion, fair enough. But i still dont see it….how is asking other peaceful muslims to speak up on tv like that, with us, a low blow? how is it inciting them to hate muslims? We are saying we are muslims too. And which part of it suggests creating trouble for them? please quote this word for word, if there is any quote or evience for it.

    Another of your quote:
    “provoking the people of other faith to get involved and take actions against the largely peaceful muslims who have nothing to do with your jamaats self created problems. ”
    provoking? he asked other faiths, including other peaceful muslims to speak up on tv with us…..wether or not they have done already, on mainstream tv in the west, is a seperate argument. And he asked them to speak up against terrorism…is this wrong?
    And self created problems? which ones? the ones where they go to jail for saying assalamo alaikum? or the ones where the Kalima is erased with cement and paint, from our mosques? In one video, a guy is breaking the tiles of an ahmadi mosque, on which the kalima is written. and the tiles with the writing on them are falling into the sewage system (again, im not saying all muslims are like this, im just stating what is happening and will post the link to these videos as soon as i find them- they were shown on a pakistan tv show, which is not run by ahmadies).
    These are all problems simply because of what we believe. So how are they self created? What if a christian or jew shot-up your mosque because of your faith, or insulted your religion, or made laws against u here in the uk, simply because of what you believe, and then i turned around and said these are your self created problems? Nothing you are saying….nothing at all….is making any sense or has any reason.
    You just say ahmadies are spreading hatred….prove it. tell us WHY you’re saying this. where are you getting it from? Please dont take this as a rant….i dont mean t take a harsh tone with u, but it just bewilders me how u make so many claims that you have not once shown sufficient proof of, yet yu stand SO sure of them, without even AT THE VERY LEAST admitting that they MAY be wrong. However, if you say that all these accusations are your opinions, then fine. you have right to an opinion. But then it still leaves people wondering why.

    And then:
    “Also no other religion will tolerate infringement on their faith (if someone does to them what your jamaat has done to muslims), I will guarantee you that.”
    what has our jamaat done, and to who?
    ahmadies spread hate, ahmadies attack, ahmadies insinuate hate on us…..i think your CD’s on repeat….again, im sorry for my tone. i really am. but there’s still NO evidence, reason or logic to your claims….sorry, i meant your opinions.

    • @Lordknows

      So you have changed your position already?

      Look what you said in your earlier post with reference to Naseem Mahdi on Fox TV:

      “He did not go on tv to bash other muslims. he went on tv to defend ahmadies. and the main reason for this is to raise enough awareness in order to at least change the wrong laws that go against our human rights, in countries like pakistan.”

      Please let me remind you that it is not just Pakistan that made the so called “wrong laws.” The entire muslim ummah considers Ahmadiyyat to be outside the fold of Islam.

      This has nothing to do with human rights. Only after careful study of its teachings and lies of its founder MGA, Ahmadiyyat was declared as a religion that is separate from the teachings of Islam and its followers are therefore non-muslims.

      There has been enough evidence provided to you as to what were the wrong teachings of Ahmadiyyat that caused it to be declared as a heretic sect that is not Islam. So please don’t ask for proof of this too!

      As far as condemning terrorism is concerned, some of the brothers here have spoken enough on this and have given all the links to the scholars who have already condemned it.

      I don’t think we need to again join you to condemn it. Your agendas are different and we follow true Islam.

      However, we go above and beyond in condemning terrorism (done by any community unlike your attack on muslims only) including the violence of any form or shape against innocents which includes unjust wars.

      We believe these wars are not in the best interest of our countries that we live in and we are very loyal to our countries, because our religion teaches so and we don’t need any education in this matter from dubious people like Naseem Mahdi.

      Lastly, I was shocked by the illogical statement that you made. I was thinking that you are a reasonable Ahmadi. But you have disappointed me completely by saying:

      “What if a christian or jew shot-up your mosque because of your faith, or insulted your religion, or made laws against u here in the uk, simply because of what you believe, and then i turned around and said these are your self created problems?”

      I know you and your jamaat would love this to happen (God forbid)

      Firstly, no muslim has tried to hijack the teachings of Christianity and Judaism as your jamaat has done to Islam and tried to change it by blackmail.

      Second, Muslims that are here in the West are largely peaceful and loyal citizens and they do not plot against these countries as your jamaat and Khalifas have done to muslims and their countries.

      Thirdly, In fact by the teachings of their religion Muslims respect them as people of the book as they are close in terms of faith. Now your jamaat is so jealous of this that they dont want muslims to live peacefully here and keeps working overtime to spread the fitnas one at a time.

      Last but not the least muslims believe that one day InshaAllah GOD will give hidaya to these people and they will follow the teachings of Islam. Whereas, you and your jamaat is unable to bear the growth of Islam in the West and are so much filled with hatred that you are bashing muslims everywhere so that people donot come to this true religion.

  12. @ Lordknow

    Let us have a discussion in a logical and decent manner.

    It is not good to get so much emotional. sometimes truth is bitter and it hurts. I can see that already the way you reacted.

    I have told you many times that these are my own personal experiences based on GOD given senses of seeing, hearing and reading. We have no reason to lie to you.

    But still if you do not believe and ask for proof, then please visit ahmedi.org and see it for yourself what others have to say with their proof.

    This web site itself is a major proof of what you are asking for. See how many brothers who were Ahmadi’s before are now describing their true life experiences. Would you call them as liars too? By the way you have already done that to some of them.

    There is no point of arguing with us. You need to educate yourself and you have a lot to study.

  13. I did state that i don’t mean to take that kind of tone, but i appreciate your approach and appologise for coming across as emotional. And thank you for the link. I will visit that website as well.

    My main position seems to have changed from mainly defending ahmadies, to just being against extremists, when referring to different aspects of the interview, I admit. But both my points were true, and support each other , and i still stand by my points made. They dont couteract each other, thus adding weight to my point about the interview.
    (i don’t mean to simply brag about the Jama’at. Im just clearing up the negative accusations placed on naseem mahdi for this interview).

    -Yes, he has defended Ahmadies when it comes to extremists against our beliefs;
    -No, he hasn’t bashed other mulims (exept the extremists in all cases);
    -He has asked other faiths AND other peaceful muslims to join as one voice against this.
    -He admitted america has problems too “which can be discussed”, proving he is not just going on tv against other muslims;
    -A main part of the reason for doing this is to stop the reasons terrorist attacks happen. And to speak up against these reasons together. And changing the laws against ahmadies in these coutries (im talkin about our human rights too, not only about our status) is one of those reasons.

    I read some more of your post, n i give up. i asked you to please consider the context of what you read, and put some thought and logic and at least reason (if not proof) into what you say. you have failed to do so. And I haven’t got it in me to argue with people who fail to understand context, and because of this, take everything the wrong way. You are simply paranoid, and take every negative comment out of its context, and think it was aimed at you.

    Some extracts from your post:
    “Lastly, I was shocked by the illogical statement that you made. I was thinking that you are a reasonable Ahmadi. But you have disappointed me completely by saying:
    “What if a christian or jew shot-up your mosque because of your faith, or insulted your religion, or made laws against u here in the uk, simply because of what you believe, and then i turned around and said these are your self created problems?”
    I know you and your jamaat would love this to happen (God forbid) ”

    This was only a response to your illogical comment where you said “…your self created problems”.
    You cannot see how i proved you wrong for saying this. So in return you say “i kno your jamaat would love this”
    Do you know? Really? Or is that just what you have led yourself to believe?
    By the following statement, i am not making your good points invalid. I still aknowledge them, and appreciate where you have been logical and respectful.
    BUT, I thought it was only shahid who was only acting out of prejudice and a growing hate against and ignorance towards ahmadies, until now. I see shahid’s attitude has rubbed off on someone who otherwise seems very bright and logical.

    I repeat this example to EXPLAIN my point:

    You called our persecution, and our human riights being stolen from us, “your self created problems”.

    I replied by giving you an example of what happened, with you as the victims in my scenario. Then asked you NOW….would you like me, IN THAT INSTANT….to sy to you, “its your self created problems”?

    Which, insted of using your God given senses to understand, and comprehend the reason i said it and what i was explaining by my statement, you reacted without showing your emotion toward it, by saying our jamaat would like that.You have NO reason to think the ahmadi jamaat would like that. and we wouldnt.

    And again, i will finish off with saying almost everyone here has a closed mind….. i cud say a prayer to you, and you’d still take something negative from it. So take this as you want. Accuse me of running away, or watever. But I have better things to do than go on a blog, that’s supposed to be open debate, whereas it is actually a “bash ahmadies, while accusing them of doing all the bashing, while turning every single one of their statements into complete negativity, by removing the context, and thinkin you can make random accusations without any evidence, logic, or reason” blog.

    PEOPLE…. at least open your minds enough to understand what is written, and dont take things negatively by taking them out of their context! That is all im asking you! Why is that so hard to do with your God given senses?

    Khuda Hafiz

  14. @Lordknows

    I once again urge you to discuss in a logical and decent manner. Otherwise I cannot continue any more discussions with you. I almost had a headache after reading your comments.

    Now go back and read the topic and article under which you are posting your comments. I have read it and I wholeheartedly agree with it.

    It is true that Ahmadiyya jamaat is responsible for many problems for itself. The recent incident of killing of Ahmadis was sad and all of us here with no exception agree that killing of any innocents, even non-muslims is wrong and against Islam. But you have to understand each incident in its own context and stop blaming everyone and blowing it out of proportion.

    You want to get rid of the so called “wrong laws” against Ahmadiyya faith then you are more than welcome to join Islam. By doing this you are not only saving yourself from the so called “wrong laws” and “persecution” This way you will also safeguard your life in the hereafter inshaAllah by following true Islam. Otherwise just tell your leaders and mullahs to stop hijacking Islam and call your religion by any other name.

    You talk about persecution and human rights. In the post 9/11 era look around who has been presecuted and killed the most. The most killing of innocents that took place was in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Pakistan (drone attacks) and not to mention many other places too……..where innocent are suffering! The main victims of these unjust wars were civilians and a lot of them women and children.

    On the contrary the suicide bombings that you are concerned about killed how many so far? So think logically and tell me now who has done the most killing suicide bombings or unjust wars? Please tell me honestly. I hope you will not go wrong on this one, even a grade 5 student will know the right answer.

    So which one should we all be condemning the most? By the way we do not agree with suicide bombing of innocents and time and again have told you about that. So don’t blame us for being soft on this. But logically you cannot be soft on the main cause of growth of extremism which is unjust wars and suffering of innocent people in many countries. Whereas your jamaat does not care about this reality. Their leaders like Naseem Mahdi divert the attention of the media when they talk about this and continue their rhetoric and attacks against muslims, their organizations and their countries.

    Your jamaat activists even went to the extent of saying in the media that Muslims are not loyal to their countries and as such leave. This is not fair. It is disgusting and utter rubbish to say the least.

  15. Ok, although i was replying to alegations, please accept my apologies here for my manner of speaking. I admit my patience did run short. I still stand by the points i raised, but it was off topic, and in the wrong tone, so i apologise.
    And just to clarify this, please understand we do not say things such as muslims are not loyal to their countries, we simply say Islam teaches you to be loyal to your country. And any alegation to people not being loyal to their country is against those extremists who we are all against, and I still believe the message of all peaceful Muslims gettin together to raise their voices against this is valid.
    I hope this clarifies that we do see eye-to-eye on this matter. What you have said about innocent people dying in muslim countries, i completely agree with you, also. I cannot make this point, although repeated many times, any clearer. If you still wish to disagree on it, then i have to apologise for the fact that there is nothing else that i personally can say on the matter, and bottom line is that you have your right to your opinion.
    I also have to apologise for one more thing (i am only still talking off topic because i promised a certain quote, and wish to fulfill that), and ask God’s forgiveness for making an error like this. When I was talking about the prophecy of airoplanes, it was not a surah where i heard of this. It was actually a Hadith. It was a grave error to say it was a Surah, simply becuase i read it a long time ago, and remembered it wrong.
    But I have looked up the Hadith, and it is the one about “dajjal ka ghadda”. If you read the whole Hadith, open mindedly, you will at least see my point of view on it.
    I will create a seperate thread in the forum (to avoid going off topic about this any further), as soon as the moderators of this site send confirmation of my account, where I will post links to a 4part question and answer session recording from 1997, where our beliefs on the matter are clearly explained. I humbly request you watch the video, listen to it in depth, and please then form your opinions without prejudice. I can not ask you any more sincerely than this.
    I will also mention here, I was watching many videos from other sects, on their beliefs and admittedly did not have answers to many of your points on the main differences of our beliefs when i heard them out. I did put all beliefs aside for the moment and heard out many arguments, and then while doing namaz today, I prayed to be educated more (since i admit my knowledge is not very strong, unlike alot of people here) and shown the right path. And then I stumbled across the videos to which i will give the links in a new thread. I hope we can have further discussions on those too, in that thread (which i will post a link for, over here, when it is creted) if you wish.

    As for the topic of this thread, I still haven’t looked up copies of the Tadhkirah, due to my current commitments, as well as doing some internet research on various Muslim sects’ beliefs.
    As soon as I do, I will post here again. In the meantime, im still checking up here for your replies and will also post the link to the seperate thread when it is posted.
    For now, it is late, so Allah Hafiz.

  16. sorry, this is the Ahmadies as silent sufferers thread. i will post againa bout the Tadhkirah in the Tadhkirah thread, not in this one.

  17. Salam again, brothers. So I’ve been a silent observer on a number of discussions here for the past few days, just wanted to sink in some things and do some reading as suggested here and there. And I mean this is no disrespect to the blog team – but my faith in Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as), his Khulafa and the Jama’at remains unshaken. Brother LordKnows, as your Ahmadi Muslim sister – this message is mainly for you. I commend you for taking the time out to have civil conversations with brother Shahid and the rest of the team and spending your time doing research before making baseless statements. That is indeed the best method of debate and mashAllah you seem to have a good grasp of the tenets of our beliefs. My concern is that, and again – please I mean this is no disrespect to the blog team, but the impression I get is that brother Shahid and the others are set in their beliefs. In other words, they’re strong advocates of not only the falsehood of MGA (as)’s claim to being the Promised Messiah but also condemn his personal character and that of his Khulafa. Brother Shahid left Ahmadiyyat after all so I’m sure he’s made up his mind or he wouldn’t have made that decision. And they’re entitled to those beliefs. But I know you’ll agree it hurts as Muslims who believe in MGA (as) as the awaited Messiah of the latter days to read some of the things on here about him as well as the Khalifas whom we all love dearly. We can’t stop them from saying these things, it’s what they believe. But I was reading somewhere a few days ago that one should have such discussions with hiqmat, in other words – debate with those who are not completely set in their ways. And this applies to both sides. Brother Shahid and his team are set in theirs and we’re set in ours….which results in hours of fruitless debate because both parties feel they’re banging their heads against walls and can’t seem to break through to the other side….perhaps after a certain point, it should just be left to Allah? If we are shaky in our beliefs then it makes perfect sense to talk about these things because we’re looking for more information. But if we’re confident about our faith (which I am and i’m sure you are as well), then all this results in is our own hurt feelings because we have to read hurtful things about our spiritual leaders. nothing else. I’m not discouraging you from debating but I just think one should choose where to debate and spend so much energy on wisely. I think the Jama’at would benefit much more from its youth excelling in their respective academic and social circles and doing everything in their power to continue to serve Islam, Ahmadiyyat and humanity to the best of their abilities, instead of engaging in online theological debates that seem to lead to dead ends. In the end, our actions will determine our progress inshaAllah.
    Sorry to sound a bit preachy, I just thought i’d point that out.

    And again, no disrespect to the blog team – we’re all entitled to our beliefs. You say you are our well-wishers and I believe you. We believe to be yours too. The difference is just our definition of “well.” I know deep down, we all just want to live in peace with eachother and please our Creator. May He guide us all.

    I’ll be a regular visitor here, sometimes vocal and other times silent. In the meantime,
    peace out.

    • Sister, you sound like a wonderful person and I’m delighted at your approach.

      There are quite a few of us here who left Ahmadiyya to revert to Islam, it’s far from just me. There are many, many people and the number increases all the time. Some are silent, some like myself are more vocal. The vocal ones tend to attract a lot of mud-slinging and obscene filth like you wouldn’t imagine. You only need to watch my Kingston Mosque video (in this blog) for one particularly shocking example and browse the forum for others in the threads entitled “Love for All, Hatred for None” – you’d have to ask yourself why Ahmadis behave like this if they’re anywhere near as serene as you.

      You’re right, debate is fruitless and pointless. More often than not, it entrenches people in their positions and increases hostility. The blog is not actually a forum for debate, the forum serves that purpose. The blog allows us the team to highlight certain issues. Certainly, we allow a degree of freedom in discussion of these issues that jama’at Ahmadiyya has never allowed its opponents. For example, after we at this forum made much noise, repeatedly, about our forum being a platform for Ahmadis, a privilege not offered by their own jama’at, alislam.org opened up a very limited forum where membership was vetted. Even this highly moderated trial forum, where no discussion outside jama’at-mandated topics without controversy was permitted, was shut down within a month. Why? Because Ahmadiyya theology and the character of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are indefensible.

      Anyway, I for one am glad you’re staying. I certainly urge you to browse through the blog and ask yourself searching questions. More importantly, pray for guidance always, no matter where it takes you.

      You talk about actions. Well my first intent in 2004 was to remain silent. I changed my mind within a month when I joined the ahmedi.org forum. Why? Because I realised that Allah (SWT) had blessed me with hidaayah and it would be wrong for me not to share my knowledge and experience with others. Since then, countless people have embraced Islam, alhamdulillah. It’s usually the more reasonable ones like yourself. I will continue to pray that you join us, insha’Allah

      Hidaayah comes from Allah (SWT) alone – and peace unto those who follow the hidaayah.

  18. Sister k, beauttifully spoken. And i completely agree with you.
    Although my thought is not only to debate pointlessly, but just to put forward the true beliefs of Ahmadies (please go to my link posted above to watch the videos and listen to Khailfa Rabai’s (aba) beautiful explanations). And if by doing so, if i can even get 1 person to at least see that the hurtfull allegations made against the Jama’at are wrong, then I feel my efforts are not wasted.

    @Shahid: brother, unfortunately it is true, I have seen the occasional Ahmadi lash out verbally and use abusive language as well when they hear allegations such as yours (again, your opinion, which is your right), but I urge you…please do not tar the whole Jama’at with this same brush. The fact of the matter is firstly, that I know alot more Ahmadies that would condemn this behavious as apposed to encuoraging it. And secondly, if i were to label all sunni’s or shia’s as extremists, would this be right of me? No. Finally, I urge anyone, as before, whatever your faith (whether you’re ahmadi, sunni, shia, christain, or jew, or whatever), please use a little decency, especially if/when discussing faiths.

    Shahid, when you say
    “we allow a degree of freedom in discussion of these issues that jama’at Ahmadiyya has never allowed its opponents”

    Please, no offence, but this is a senseless comment. Jama’at ahmadiyya hold conferences and question and answer sessions all the time, where everyone is invited. Just watch the videos in my forum thread. Who do you think it is in those videos asking those questions? So I urge you once again brother, although you have right of an opinion, please use logic and proper reason before making comments like these. If there are any ahmadies like this out there, please dont label us all like that because of them. As mentioned, I haven’t come here to pointlessly debate. I am only asking you to be fair.
    As to the forum on alislam.org, i dont know about this, but i will say if there was a forum and it closed, there are still question and answer sessions where people can phone in, or even come in person. One such example is the program faith matters. Other examples are events such as question and answer sessions, like in the videos in my thread. So if we don’t have a forum, it doesn’t mean that it is what you’re making it out to be. Im sorry it makes you feel that way.

  19. Sister K,

    Our simple suggestion is read, read and read, and when you do that please look at both sides of the argument. Our job like Br. Shahid said is to convey the message.

    There is no compulsion in relgion for truth stands clear from falsehood.

    InshaAllah we hope and pray that the Ahmadi brothers and sisters will come to real Islam.

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