Hadith & Alleged Death of Jesus -8 (Descent in the Night of Mi’raj?)

Yet another Qadiani twisting of plain things:

A hadith about the Miraj records:

“Then the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) descended in Jerusalem, along with all the other prophets. At the time of prayers, he lead them all in prayer” (Tafisir on Kathir, Urdu ed., vol. III, p. 23).

Among “all” the prophets is included Jesus. Had he, unlike other prophets, been alive physically in heaven, his “descent” to Jerusalem would have been with his material body. In that case, he would have had to rise up to heaven physically a second time. But the Quran mentions only one raf (“exaltation” which is misunderstood as “rising up to heaven”) of Jesus!

This difficulty does not arise if we believe, as is clear from the various hadith about Mi`raj, that Jesus was in the same condition (i.e. dead) as were all the other prophets seen in the vision.

The Truth:

1) There are just two possibilities, when the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) met the Prophets in Jerusalem during his miraculous night journey either all of them were present there in their bodily forms or he just met their spirits. But one thing is established, all of them were in similar condition and form as there is no evidence to say that Jesus (عليه السلام) was an exception in any way.

2) If he simply met their spirits i.e. he met the spirit of Jesus (عليه السلام) it doesn’t mean he was dead because  we do know from Quran and Hadith that even when a person is not dead his soul can move. As in sleep;

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنْفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَى عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَى إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآَيَاتٍ لِقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

Allah fully takes away the souls (of the people) at the time of their death, (and (of) those who do not die, in their sleep. Then He withholds those on whom He had decreed death, and sends others back, up to an appointed term. Surely, in this, there are signs for a people who ponder.” (Quran 39:42)

3) Even if the Prophets were physically present, there is no issue still because the ayah about ‘Rafa’ i.e. Ascension talks of one particular instance and about Jesus (عليه السلام) only. It does not rule out the possibility of the same thereafter and that too at an event in which he was no exception.

4) Moreover on these lines we have a counter question for Qadianis.

On April 7th 1908 an American couple came to interview MGA. Following are their last two questions and the response by MGA;

Q: In what way have you seen Christ, have you seen him in the bodily form?

A: Yes, in the bodily form and clearly while awake.

Q: We have also seen Christ and see him [still] but it’s in the spiritual sense. Have you seen him just as we do?

A: No, I have seen him in physical form and in clear wakefulness.

(Malfoozat [New Ed.] vol.5 p.521)

The question here is, if Jesus (عليه السلام) had died how MGA could see him in bodily form and that too in wakefulness and not merely in a vision? Qadianis believe he has been buried in some grave. So did he rise back to life to meet MGA and will die again to come back to life with rest of the people on the Final Day? Does it not contradict Quran which mentions only one death after a person is born?

Truly absurd and baseless are their contentions!

May Allah guide all!

INDEED ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST!

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82 thoughts on “Hadith & Alleged Death of Jesus -8 (Descent in the Night of Mi’raj?)

  1. Totally absurd!

    State #1. When Allah decides NOT to return the soul to the body. Bodily death occurs, the soul and body are permanently separated. The body decays while the soul continues its journey in the spiritual(read not physical) dimension according to its condition.

    State #2. When Allah decides to return the soul to the body, the body continues it physical function. The body lives and does not decay. This continues until an appointed time when Allah decides not to send th soul back resulting in physical death.

    So your point #2, is inferring that Jesus is in state #2((state of slumber) as I described above. A human body can only survive earth like conditions. So where art the body?? Kindly locate and let us know?

    Now to the questions of the American couples:
    May be you can tell us what the spiritual dimension “looks” like? Have you seen it? Many people have seen the Prophet(saw) in dreams/visions, does it mean he(saw) is physically alive?

    I can’t believe that Allah has given us the knowledge of science, yet our minds still live in the medieval world. LOL.

    • Mahmood

      the point that you raised have been answered by Mirza Ghulam him self he writes:

      “Are ways and laws of GOD are just limited to what we have observed and seen and nothing more than that?… this is such a wrong thing that we present such a useless argument that what is out of reach of our understanding that is out of law of nature as well”

      so Mirza ghulam refuted u on this LAW of Nature thing

      then MGA himself said that He saw Jesus in bodily form while he was awake so body of Jesus came out of grave

      so why double standards and why ignoring MGA’s own writings 🙂

      and you know Mirza Ghulam called ppl like you (who talks about science and deny miracles) “KUNAIN KAY MANDAK” 😀

    • My point is simply that a soul can move even when a person is not dead. You have no basis to say that it can happen only on Earth. Moreover what about insane MGA seeing and enjoying meal with Jesus (AS) in WAKEFULNESS and NOT merely in the ‘spiritual’ sense?

      Do comment on MGA’s claims in the light of scientific knowledge and not ‘medieval thoughts’

      Everything is irrational as long as it relates to Holy Prophets (AS) but very much possible to when it comes to the false claimant of prophethood. That’s the Mirzai position!

      • Have you had a dream in which you are eating something, and enjoying its taste as if it were a real? Have you met someone dead or alive, conversed with him/her as if it was real conversation? I believe this will answer your question about the Promised Messiahs(as) experience.

        Again you guys are MASTERS of twisting words. Allah has the power to do as He wills, after all He is the creator. There are laws that are yet hidden from the human senses that Allah invokes.

        Tell me, is it possible for Allah to carry-out miracles within the confines of the laws of nature(which are infact His laws)?

        If a person is afflicted with cancer and through a miracle of Allah he is unexplainabley healed. Is it OK to infer that it was a shear miracle of Allah in which Allah’s hidden healing powers that he has instilled in the body which humans have not discovered have come into action?

        Its best to let Allah answer you:

        ‘Or thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a book that we can read.’ Say, ‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger.’ (17:94)

        “And if their aversion is grievous to thee, then, if thou art able to seek a passage into the earth or a ladder unto heaven, and bring them a Sign, thou canst do so. And had Allah enforced His will, He could surely have brought them together into the guidance. So be thou not of those who lack knowledge.(6:35)

        KEY SENTENCE “So be thou not of those who lack knowledge.”

        We believe in miracles of Allah not magic!

        • You quotted 17:94
          who said ISA(AS) went to heavens himself
          it is possible only if ALLAH wills

          u know almost all companions believe Miraj to be physical
          so ur basically saying they also didnt understand this verse?

          I think u didnt read mirza answer carefully:

          Mirza said he saw jesus while awake and physical form:

          In the bodily form and clearly while awake
          In physical form and in clear wakefulness

          and according to Mirza himself:

          Law of God are NOT JUST WHAT HE HAVE OBSERVED AND SEEN

          • So according to Mirza ghulam himself ppl like u mahmood are Kuwain kay Mandak 😀

            Can you tell us the explantion of these miracles:

            1. Moon spliting in two(remember MGA believed that)
            2. Ink falling from the Pen of GOD
            3. Prophet (PUBH) feeding so many ppl through one bowl of water

            Remember MGA believed these Miracles (magic as u called them)

            also explain how MGA saw Jesus in BODILY FORM WHILE AWAKE not Dream (cant ur read?)
            or this law of nature just come in play when its about Muslim beliefs regarding Jesus (PUBH)

            Remember Mirza ghulam himself said that Law of Nature are not just what we see and observe so try refuting Mirza Ghulam as well 🙂

            so start using ur brain please before it gets too late

          • XIA Ahmed, read my statement above. I said there are laws of Allah that are not apparent to us which come into action as he pleases.

            Ok fine, let me give you the benefot of the doubt that Issa went up to heaven!

            Then, tell me:

            1. Do you believe that the Prophet(saw) has gone to heaven as well? The Quran uses the exact wording verbatim for the Prophet(saw) as wells as Jesus(as)

            2. Once anyone enters heaven, do they come out of heaven? Isn’t heaven described by Allah as a permanent place where all that enter will live for EVER! Explain to me how Allah will extricate Jesus from heaven back to this hell called earth?

          • Yes Mahmood I believe prophet (PUBH) went to Heavens
            like almost all companions of the Prophet Muhammad (PUBH) believed.

            If Quran really said that person cannot go to heavens physically even if ALLAH wills then why companions of Prophet (PUBH) believed in the physical Miraj? so think please

            and Heavens means Asamaa not Jannat 🙂
            so please use ur own mind

            so u agree that if ALLAH wills its possible and ur excuse of law of nature is not good enough which MGA himself refuted?

            Mahmud u didnt answer how Mirza GHulam saw
            Jesus in Awakenfulness and in Physical form???

            And I hope if ur being honest u wont gona come up with this argument of law of nature knowing Mirza Ghulam’s own statements

          • Thats what word is translated according to the context like word salat is used for humans can GOD but that does not mean that it has same meaning at both places.

            ur own 1st khalifah translated it as “Apni turaf Utha liya”

            and why we cant quote Mirza Ghulam? Isnt he authentic for u?
            like when Mirza ghulam use to quote bible does that mean he use to agree with bible at that time? NO na

            so why ahmadis are always ashamed of Mirza Ghulam’s own writings?

            and according to narrations Hazrat Aisha (RA) believe that Miraj was Spirtual that Spirit left the body still not the VISION as ahmadis believe so u ppl dont even side with Hazrat Aisha (RA)

            secondly we go with IJMAH of Best generation rather than single opinion so that shows that ahmadis are picking and choosing.

            and again u missed the point that Companions (RA) beliving in physical Miraj shows that they believe that such thing can happen and Quran is not against it other wise they wouldn’t have had such belief (even if we assume that belief was wrong)

            u again totally avoided the questions that I asked about mirza miracles and issues with Isra and Miraj.

            and please learn to stand by with ur prophet’s writings otherwise it is clearly showing ur weak faith in him.

            thats why I invite you to leave falsehood and come to Islam which was perfected 1400 years ago not 100+ years ago

        • So according to Mirza ghulam himself ppl like u mahmood are Kuwain kay Mandak 😀

          Can you tell us the explantion of these miracles:

          1. Moon spliting in two(remember MGA believed that)
          2. Ink falling from the Pen of GOD
          3. Prophet (PUBH) feeding so many ppl through one bowl of water

          Remember MGA believed these Miracles (magic as u called them)

          also explain how MGA saw Jesus in BODILY FORM WHILE AWAKE not Dream (cant ur read?)
          or this law of nature just come in play when its about Muslim beliefs regarding Jesus (PUBH)

          Remember Mirza ghulam himself said that Law of Nature are not just what we see and observe so try refuting Mirza Ghulam as well 🙂

          • First of all don’t bring the Promised Messiah(as) in this argument as you do not believe in him. Proving things based on someone you don’t believe in/acknowledge will not get you anywhere.

            We will leave our arguments to areas that are of common belief.

            I was not talking of Miraj but the following verse of the Quran:
            Read verse 2:252-253. You will have to agree that either all Prophets(incl Jesus) have risen to heaven or all of them have been “exalted spiritually”

            Now about Miraj. I have asked you folk time again to produce ONE eyewitness hadith where sahaba saw him(saw) go up. If it were a physically event, then the evidence is physical, visual in this case. I know you can’t, this is why we believe this journey was nt physical and we side with Hazrat Aisha(ra) on this issue and not with the sahaba who “believed” that it was physical. Read 17:93 Surah Isra deals with Miraj: After all the challenge of ascension the prophet(saw) replies: Say, “Exalted is my Lord! Was I ever but a human messenger?”

            If you read my statement, I said there are certain laws of Allah that are not apparent to us until He reveals them to us. For instance, humans did not acknowledge the existence of magnetic and gravitational forces but believed them as magic if they saw phenomenon that would exhibit such qualities. Magicians have taken advantage of these laws to mesmerize people.

            So to your point about the splitting of the moon. This is nothing particular strange scientifically. Celestial bodies have been known to split physically at times but more compellingly I would think that an observer from earth could see the moon split in two if certain natural atmospheric conditions are created whereby the eye sees it split while it may not be so physically. Its called an optical illusion. Ever see a miraj on a road? Do you believe there is water ont he other side? Its the thin layer of hot air that give you the illusion of water.

            The same known or unknown laws would apply to the ink and the bowl of milk. The ink could have been squirted by pressure variation created by Allah. The bowl of milk would have satiated a lot of people due to the quality of the milk and the container. Hunger is controlled by the brain, and if Allah controls the brain to stimulate areas that signal satiation, then no-one would feel hungry even with one bowl of milk going around. Allah is All Powerful and Wise. Again you cannot use these arguments as a proof of ascension of any human. All Prophets were human and the have passed away AKA died.

            Don’t be misguided and if you are still not convinced and are serious to know the truth. Then sincerely ask Allah.

        • Why can we talk about Mirza Ghulam statements? dont u believe in him?

          if u who came up with the law of nature Argument and we refuted it from ur own leader’s statements

          About Miraj neither some one saw him going up nor some one saw him have vision EITHER

          so u dont have eye witness for both account but we know the Ijmah of companions were on Physcial Miraj point that I want to make is that u quoted Quran trying to show that this verse means that non can go to heavens physically
          but as Companions believed in Physical Miraj so that clearly shows that they believe that person can go to heavens physically if ALLAH wills and this verse of Quran that u quoted does not stops that from happening GOT IT?

          and can u explain how 2:252-253 means that ALL prophets are dead? or its another assumption of urs.

          Mirza Ghulam clearly wrote that prophet (PUBH) na CHAND ko do TUKREY kaR DIA (Prophet (PUBH) splitting the moon into two pieces) again ur ignoring ur own mirza ghulam statement.

          So we say same known and UNKNOWN laws apply to ascend of Jesus (PUBH) to heavens

          oh ink came from pressure variance but mirza ghulam said it came from the pen of GOD
          and ALLAH effect ppls brain thats again ur imagination but if that happens then again ALLAH doing the mircale if he can change the state of Brain so why he cant make a person ascend to Heavens?

          or say that u have double standards when it comes to ISA(AS)?

          so mahmud leave the falsehood of Mirza & son where u have to ignore mirza’s own writings and gave these weird excuse

          Pray to GOD from guidance and come to Islam of Prophet Muhammad (PUBH) and leave the religion of mirza ghulam

          • Look brother, I believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) is the Messiah and Mahdi, you don’t. So if you wan to use references of his then it implies that you believe in them also. I will put the final nail in this issue when I begin providing quotation of Ulema and Mujadideen of the past that agree with us. You will have to reject them as well.

            Again, no one is refuting Allah’s ability to do as he please INCLUDING ascending someone bodily. But the Quran is clear about this not happening. There are laws of Allah that are hidden form us that He invokes which result in miraculous events.

            If Jesus was alive in the heavens at the time of the Prophet(saw), why did he(saw) not even mention that Jesus is in heavens alive?? This such an important issue(Jesus being bodily alive) that has been completely ignored by the Prophet(saw).

            The verse in 2:252-253 are talking about RAFAA of prophets including Jesus. I am asking you, why are your translation of RAFAA in this verse “Raised in degree of honor”???

            Go to Quran.com and look at the translation of several of your ulema, all saying that Rafaa is degrees of honor and NOT ascension? Surprisingly they are saying the same for Jesus as Jesus is mentioned in this verse.

            Its extremely difficult to fathom that people who claim to be Muslims are waiting for a Jewish prophet to come and lead them! An to ensure he does so, you guys come up with fantastic stories of baiat at the hands of Imam Mahdi etc. which ar totally baseless stories!

            Again, if Hazrat Aisha(ra) disagreed, we side with her as we believe her more on this issue. We can say that there is a difference of opinion. Again you have not provided eye-witnesses.
            Now tell me what do you think of the following hadith from Bukhari:

            Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah: That he heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “When the people of Quraish did not believe me (i.e. the story of my night journey), I stood up in Al-Hijr and Allah displayed Jerusalem in front of me, and I began describing it to them while I was looking at it.” (Book #58, Hadith #226)

            Narrated Ibn Abbas: Regarding: ‘And We granted the vision (Ascension to the Heaven “miraj”) which We showed you (O Muhammad as an actual eye witness) but as a trial for mankind.’ (17.60) It was an actual eye-witness which was shown to Allah’s Apostle during the night he was taken on? a journey (through the heavens). And the cursed tree is the tree of Az-Zaqqum (a bitter pungent tree which grows at the bottom of Hell). (Book #60, Hadith #240)

          • @ Mahmood

            The reference point here for ahmadis is Ibn Hisham. In his book entitled “life of the prophet” he quoted Hazrat Ayesha (ra) ask the beginner in a the chain of transmittors that were of the opinion that Muhammad’s (saw) body never left mecca, and she claimed that Muhammad (saw) travelled in his spirit (ruh) which was seperated from the body.

            Also keep in mind that Hazrat Ayesha (ra) was like 4-6 years old when this event happened.

            As muslims, we choose Sahih Bukhari over Ibn Hisham, that is our science, that is our method. Imam Bukhari did not authenticate the Hazrat Ayesha (ra) version. None of his chain of transmittors begins with Hazrat Ayesha (ra) which proves Imam Bukhari was unable to authenticate that version of events.

            Once again Hazrat Ayesha (ra) said that this “journey” by Muhammad (saw) was in ruh (spirit), not a vision or a dream. So ahmadis lose in any case..

            Sorry Masroor….

          • This GREAT Rationalist, at least you have agreed and taken the body out of question.

            I agree this was a spiritual journey i.e. not of the physical body …

          • Mahmood but according to MGA it was just a VISION not even spiritual journey 🙂

            and as I said according to Mirza Ghulam himself IJMAH of companions of Prophet (PUBH) was on PHYSICAL MIRAJ

            so one or two person can mistake but almost all people of the best generation who lived with Prophet (PUBH) makes no sense

  2. the issue for ahmadis only arise when its about ISA(AS) and muslim belief
    that are ok with all those claims of mirza ghulam mentioned in point 4 🙂

  3. The fact is Mirzais don’t believe in anyone or anything but the absurdities of MGA and seek all kinds of twisting for that..

    MGA can do anything in clear wakefulness but the Prophets can’t.
    Whatever MGA did was purely rational but not so what was done by the Prophets.

    The quotation from Malfoozat in this post and two others in the previous post of the series really cement my belief that Allah in His wisdom made MGA to say things that leave the Mirzais in a difficult situation and many of them do acknowledge this, some openly when they revert to Islam, some at heart.

    • The Journey of Miraj of the prophet(saw) took place in a state of full wakefulness and senses, not sleep or dream.

      Now read this Hadith from Sahih Bukhari and tell me, did the Prophet go on a second journey???

      Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah: That he heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “when the people of quraish did not believe me (i.e. the story of my Night Journey), I stood up in Al-Hijr and Allah displayed Jerusalem in front of me, and I began describing it to them while I was looking at it.” (Book #58, Hadith #226)

      This hadith is proof that the journey was a clear vision which was repeat AGAIN in the presence of Quraish. Did the prophet ascend??

      You need to get out of your fictional world!

      • Do hadith says tat when Jerusalem was displayed then Prophet (PUBH) again went to Isra? coz if it was just a vision then it was second time but no hadith or person says that Prophet (PUBH) went on Irsa twice 🙂

        tell us if it was just a vision then why ppl had issues with Prophet (PUBH) visiting Al Aqsa in ONE NIGHT?

        coz when a person came to Abu Bakar (RA) he said that to him that ur prophet (Muhammad (PUBH) ) is claiming that he visited Jeruslem in one night and Abu Bakar(RA) agree to it and was given the title of Siddique.

        and if it was just a vision then why ALMOST ALL COMPANIONS who lived with Prophet Muhammad (PUBH) way long after this incident believed in PHYSICAL MIRAJ (that what Mirza Ghulam wrote) ?

        so ur again acting like Kuain kay mandak sa Mirza Ghulam call ppl like u

        • Oh God!

          I tell ya what, continue to stare at the skies and wait for your Jewish Messiah to descend. I respect your opinion but respectfully disagree!

          Your state is describe by 17:90-96
          You will never believe until all sort of magical tricks take place.

          • Do you have any idea how disgusting you sound? No wonder Ahmadiyya is a dirty backwater cult that gets its kicks by bootlicking on the Nazi Fox channel. You people are so disdainful and mocking. Do you have any idea that you’re referring to Isa (as)? A respected Messenger of Allah (SWT)? Unlike Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who was a messenger of Yalash. Have you no shame?

            Mirza of course was even worse than you, insulting Isa (as) time after time.

            No Muslim is staring at the sky as you so mockingly put it. We follow Rasulullah (saw). It is you who base your whole deviant methodology and cult of Mirzology on issues that the theologians have soundly thrashed you on time and time again. Instead of trusting your schoolboy reasoning, why not actually do some study for yourself?

            And where are you on all the other posts? Scared? Why do you only talk about the issue of Isa (as)? You’re more obsessed with Christ than the Christians are, you talk about it all the time, you’ve even changed your branding to “Muslims who believe in the Messiah”. What, and we don’t?

            Ahmadiyya is not Islam. It is a cult founded on the premise of bootlicking to an imperialist, colonialist occupation. Mirza said so himself.

          • When ink can come from the pen of GOD
            or when Cloak of Guru nanak can come from heavens
            when moon can split into two
            When Mirza ghulam can pluck the orange out of think air so why this cant happens?

          • Mahmood,

            All Muslims respect Jesus (peace be upon him) as a mighty messenger from Allah. Whereas, your cult leader MGA cursed and abused him and left no stone unturned in insulting even his mother Mary (peace be upon her) whom Allah s.w.t. in holy Quran chose above women of all nations to have a son miraculously born without any male intervention.

            Now do you believe in this or not? where do you stand?

            Just as his birth was miraculous his return would also be the same.

            Whereas your MGA tried to steal the true teachings of ISLAM and fabricated it to suit the colonial masters that he served.

            As a result now you have to tell even bigger lies to keep him going.

            Please think seriously about your beliefs and return to ISLAM before it is too late.

    • Waqar
      we agree,
      Ahmadiyyat is a cult. This is what cult brainwashing does to its members. It shuts all doors to logic and reasoning. Opens doors to false arguments and irrational statements that can only be understood by people of that group. Over 90% of Ahmadi cult members are from punjabi speaking background. I say this with no offence to all punjabi’s. But one has to understand how the system works. Ahmadiyyat, is a powerplay of control, money, politics and brainwashing to say the least. It is nothing but an illusion created in the name of Islam to mislead innocent people and those who are ignorant. This is also a family run business of the MGA clan. They certainly hide the facts from the common Ahmadi’s. Common Ahmadi’s have no say whatsoever, in how this business is run at the top levels. If they do they will be expelled from this club!

  4. Oh Puhlease!

    The Promised Messiah has defended Jesus and his mother like no other Muslim has. But again, you are being your old self by twisting his writing.

    Yes, his birth was definitely miraculous…and then he passed away!

    Look Shahid, show some guts and openly declare your disloyalty to Britain…Talk is cheap!

    Mirza Sahib(as) “STOLE” the teaching? You guys never cease to amuse me. Kinda like our Shia fiends who cliam that Hazrat Gibrail made an error in revealing to the Prophet(saw) as opposed to Hazrat Ali(ra). What a bunch of crock.

    LOL “STOLE”. You obviously have very weak belief in Allah.

    I think its very close to being too late for you guys…infact, you are becoming increasingly irrelevant and isolated..!

      • Official references please 🙂

        Also, be careful, I can provide authentic reference of other respected Ulema of yours that have used questionable language to say the least in reference to Jesus and other prophets. If you are fair minded, you would have to condemn them.

        • They’re all there. Don’t hide Mahmood, it makes you look bad. In fact, your “also” betrays weakness.

          Your whole response makes you look like someone who is afraid of the truth. I am not. If any of the `ulama of Islam have used “questionable” language, that’s their problem, not mine. However, Mirza is your prophet, and that makes him your problem. And I am fair minded. I say anyone who has used language or tone about Isa (as) the way Mirza has is beneath contempt, but my guide is Rasulullah (saw) – and he is innocent of those charges.

          Your move.

          • Shahid, each time you and your friends make these allegation, you present them as some new discovery that has not been dealt with.

            In the interest of time may I suggest you read this response to these so called allegations: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/refutation/refutation-of-insult.pdf

            I am not a scholar and it does none of us good for me to be copying and pasting the arguments.
            If you are sincere in your search for the truth, and as you claim to be a fair minded person, an unbiased read of this short essay will surely clear out he issues.

            I hope and pray that Allah guides us all!

          • Please stop being so patronising, it makes you look immature my friend. I’ve read the refutations by Ahmadiyya. They’re broken.

            Read the refs from ahmadibeliefs.com again. It’s not cut and paste. The refs are authentic. If you’re a truthseeker, refute the proofs yourself. I read every argument made by Ahmadiyya and I read the rebuttals. The refutations by Ahmadiyya are devious and take you away from the truth. I doubt you realised Mirza had been so insulting.

            Perhaps you’d like to see one of my presentations at a mosque where I go into this into more detail, so you can understand the point?

            I have read both sides. I urge you to do the same. Don’t reject one or the other based on your preconceptions. Think about this, I was predisposed towards Ahmadiyya. It took guts to do what I did. I didn’t do it on a whim. I studied thousands of pages before I made my decision. I read both sides with an open mind, but with some Ahmadiyya bias.

            Do the same. Avoid your stock arguments, they are not defences, they are just arguments. Think about the difference between proof and argument. Just because the truth has been presented before, doesn’t make it any less true. A broken refutation by the Ahmadiyya exists for only one reason – to keep the likes of you in the clutches of the cult.

            Come back to Islam Mahmood, it is your birthright.

          • Mahmood,

            Relax, dont overstress yourself or you will loose your health also!

            Listen you have been converted to Ahmadiyyat not Islam.

            Please continue your independant research with open mind (especially when you are alone) pray to Allah s.w.t. to guide you to the right path. InshAllah you will see the light! But clear your mind of illfeeling towards muslims and their scholars ( whom the jamaat accuses as Mullahs ). Because one has to have a sincere and clean heart before Allah`s guidance comes in.

        • So that proves Mahmood dont use his own mind and just go to ahmadi website and consider everything written there as authentic that expose how much willing to learn mahmood is

          Mahmood as ur jammat say ohh it was about Jesus of Christians I challenge you to show me where any christians believe that JESUS wrote anything.

          as Mirza ghulam said “ISA(AS) na pharhi taleem TALMUD SEY CHURA KAY LIKHI”

    • Mahmood says “Promised Messiah”

      What is this promised messiam? promised by who? Yellash!

    • Sir Syed before u so called promised messiah came up with jesus being dead theory 🙂

      secondly can u show us frm where u got this belief of Promised messiah?

      ok so jesus can have miraculous birth but GOD cant raised him there suddenly law or nature comes to play

      and not when mirza ghulam pluck orange out of thin air 😀

      • No Bother Zia, you need to go further back in history( and some present ones) who complete agree with us. There are sahaba, Mujadideen and renowned scholars who had the same thoughts re Issa(as). I think u will have to use the same brush on them.

        I will give you a short list, let me know if you are up to the challenge:
        Hazrat Aisha(ra)
        Hazrat Fatima(ra)
        Imam Ibn Hazm, Amawi Zahiri Qurtabi(ra)
        Abul Hasan Ali Hajwairi(ra)
        Hazrat Imam Hassan (ra)
        Hazrat Imam Hassan (ra)
        Hazrat Ibn-e-Abbaas (ra)
        Hazrat Jarood Bin Moallaa (ra)
        Hazrat Imam Malik (ra)
        Allama Qummi (Shia Scholar)
        Allama Jabbai (Shia Scholar)
        Allama Ibn-e-Teemiya
        Allama Ibn-e-Qayyem
        Allama Ibn-e-Hayyaan and Allama Shokani
        Mahmud Shaltut, former Mufti of Egypt and ex-Rector of al-Azhar University
        Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi (deobandi scholar)
        Maulana Abul Kalam Azad
        Khwaja Hasan Nizami
        Allama Inayat-ullah Khan Mashriqi

        • so what new thing Mirza ghulam achieved? that belief according to u was already there.

          and please stop reading ur website let me suggest u book on this topic many of those that u talk about believed ISA(AS) to return

          like Ibn Abbass (RA) believe in ascension of Jesus (PUBH) to heavens and return from HEAVENS 🙂

        • Hold on Mahmud!

          As to my knowledge all the statements your cult brings attributed to Sayyidah Aisha (RA) and Sayyida Fatima (RA) have been answered. I think this refers to false narrations about death at the age of 120 years issue as they are attributed to them as narrators. If there are more ‘evidences’ with you do share!

          As to the allegation on Ibn Abbas (RA) your seeking evidence with ‘Mumeetuka’ is very weak. This has been answered already. If you haven’t seen yet. Wait for another series. ‘Quran and Alleged Death of Jesus (AS)’. It’ll help the Qadianis a lot if they have some yearning for truth.

          As to the statement attributed to Jarud (RA) in Bahrain the answer is Alhamdulillah ready. Wait for the 11th post of the series.

          As to the statement attributed to Hassan (RA) at Kufa the answering is coming soon in 12th post of the series.

          About the scholars wait for yet another series ‘Scholars and Alleged Death of Jesus (AS)’. Work in progress Alhamdulillah.

          I chose to work on Ahadith first because most people don’t have the access to books your people refer to.

          And by the way, you din’t show any ‘interest’ in earlier posts of the series.

          Wait for the 9th post and see how professional are your elders have been in deceiving the people. Its about Holy Prophet’s (SAAW) discussion with the Christian delegation from Nejran!

          Insha’Allah you cult will be exposed, stay tuned!

          • I luv Waqar. You have tackeld the Esa (as) issues admirably my brother.

          • All praise be to Allah!
            It is He alone that completely blinds His creation and guides who He wills!

            I can’t fathom how you guys defend a prophet of defunct Umma! And you are so passionate about descending Issa that if you had the power to force him down you would!

            I cannot thank Allah enough for enlightening me and making me a true defender of Islam and its Prophet(saw) as opposed to a Jewish prophet!

            How can you defend Islam when you are in complete agreement with the Christians on the bodily return of Jesus(the Jewish Prophet)? They deride you openly as it is their prophet(or god) that you await! But you still resort to boot-licking!

            We on the other hand clearly tell them; God ended the Prophetic progeny of the Jewish nation with the fatherless birth of Jesus. The death of Jesus ended the Christian nations hold on prophet-hood.

            It is only Islam that is the true living religion and it is only Muhammad(saw) who is the greatest of all prophets as prophethood continues in his ummah and due to his(saw) stature and greatness!

            You folks need to make up your minds!

          • Please show me where I have “hated” Issa(as)? I am all eyes!

            Why do I feel I am taking to Christians as they get offended when I tell them their lord is dead, buried in the soil just like any human being would?

            [admin: Final warning – we note that only Mirzais are obsessed with Isa (as), watch your tone, your ability to comment here is a privilege not afforded to Muslims at any official site of Ahmadiyya, so don’t abuse that privilege. Thanks]

          • We say he ISA(AS) was not GOD and that is enough to prove that we dont have concept like christians

            and also we dont believe that GOD will return infact ISA(AS) will return and will follow QURAN

            so ur trying to compare us with christian is nothing but a lame emotional argument not based on reality

          • Mahmood is no on to emotional dialogs

            Christians can still say that even QURAN called ISA(AS) messiah and not Prophet (PUBH) so does that make ISA(AS) greater? NO

            same way he returning wont gona make him greater infact he will be following the QURAN and SUNNAH shows otherwise.

            Imam Abu Hanifah writes:

            “The emergence of the Dajjal and of Gog and Magog is a reality; the rising of the sun in the West is a reality; the descent of Isa (AS), upon whom be peace, from the HEAVENS is a reality; and all the other signs of the Day of Resurrection, as contained in authentic traditions, are also established reality”

          • @ Mahmud

            Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw) never said that Esa (as) wouldnt physically return, sorry, but we believe him.

            In the early meccan era, their was a Quranic verse which spoke of the return of ESA (as):
            Suyuti: http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa … nguageId=2
            And indeed he, that is, Jesus, is a portent of the Hour — [the arrival of] it is known by the sending down of him — so do not doubt it (tamtarunna: the indicative nūn has been omitted for apocopation together with the wāw of the [third] person [plural] on account of two unvowelled consonants coming together) but, say to them: ‘Follow me, in the affirmation of [God’s] Oneness. This, to which I command you, is a straight path’.

            ^this proves that muslims never objected to the physical return of ESA (as). It is ahmadiyyat who is making a mockery of this islamic belief.

          • @ Mahmud…u deserve to be slapped, per Muhammad (saw)…

            I found a nice little hadith for you..

            Volume 4, Book 55, Number 626:
            Narrated Abu Huraira:

            Once while a Jew was selling something, he was offered a price that he was not pleased with. So, he said, “No, by Him Who gave Moses superiority over all human beings!” Hearing him, an Ansari man got up and slapped him on the face and said, “You say: By Him Who Gave Moses superiority over all human beings although the Prophet (Muhammad) is present amongst us!” The Jew went to the Prophet and said, “O Abu-l-Qasim! I am under the assurance and contract of security, so what right does so-and-so have to slap me?” The Prophet asked the other, “Why have you slapped”. He told him the whole story. The Prophet became angry, till anger appeared on his face, and said, “Don’t give superiority to any prophet amongst Allah’s Prophets, for when the trumpet will be blown, everyone on the earth and in the heavens will become unconscious except those whom Allah will exempt. The trumpet will be blown for the second time and I will be the first to be resurrected to see Moses holding Allah’s Throne. I will not know whether the unconsciousness which Moses received on the Day of Tur has been sufficient for him, or has he got up before me. And I do not say that there is anybody who is better than Yunus bin Matta.”

          • @”rationalist”
            Wow, no I deserve to be slapped as per the Prophet(saw) Nauzubillah. You should be ashamed of your very existence for attributing such violence to the Prophet(saw)…Shame on you! You should first read the hadith before making knee-jerk comments. By your argument, you should be slapped when you diagree with me when I say that the Prophet(saw), who has passed away, is superior than Jesus who you believe to be alive!

            Now, do you know what spiritual status is?

            Are you saying that Hazrat KhatamanNabiyeen(saw) is of the same status as the other Prophets? You time again prove that you are more passionate about Jesus than Muhammad(saw)!

      • I asked a SIMPLE question. Are you going to challenge the sahaba ans scholars in list below??

        • We have already proved you wrong..

          Ok, so imam maliki belived that Esa (as) was dead right? What else did he write in that same book? He believed that Esa (as) would return as a non-prophet. So basically he is saying that the same ESA (as) will physically NUZOOL, allah will breath life into ESA’s (as) body. Allah will strip him of his prophetic rank.

          Check the book…you nerd…

          I bet you never heard that side of the story.

          FYI: this reference to Imam Maliki is being researched by Waqar..he will prove everything that I wrote above…

          • Thats why Mahmood I said before you use ur own brain read the Classical Islamic scholors and not the pocket book 🙂

  5. Mahmood says:

    I think its very close to being too late for you guys…infact, you are becoming increasingly irrelevant and isolated..!

    Reply:

    If that is so, why are all your cults efforts being wasted on such people who are irrelevant and isolated?

    why are you still targetting muslims and trying to mislead the innocent and young ones by trapping them in the falsehood of your evil cult.

    You have nothing better to do………?

    You thing you have fooled enough people in the World, but one day InshAllah your truth will be found out by those who dont know yet!

    I dont say this, this is how GOD Almighty’s law works, falsehood may survive for a short period but truth will always pass the test of time.

    And what is this loyalty that you keep talking about. You and your cult are the ones who were disloyal to ISLAM, MUSLIMS, THEIR COUNTRIES, JESUS (pbuh), —— AND PLEASE STOP PLAYING THIS GAME…………..! We know how much and to whom you are loyal really.

    • LOL. the only part of your rambling i liked is “but one day InshAllah your truth will be found out by those who dont know yet” I say InshaAllah to that. as well.

      Now, look, tell me? What is the purpose of this site of your? Who is calling who a cult? We are defending the true Islam and your language and tactics are similar to the disbelievers of the past. Look how you address the Promised Messiah(as) as “your prophet & your promised messiah”…i think your should go and see how the disbelievers of the past addressed the prophets and their followers, you will see a strong correlation!

      • Nonsense Mahmood, our tone, on the whole, is better than yours on this site. Quit with the thought-stopping slogans, it’s really poor form.

        Go read the threads on the forum entitled “Love for All, Hatred for None” – or perhaps look at some of the hate mail you guys send me. It is so awful that it makes me shudder with gratitude that Allah (SWT) saved me from the clutches of a bunch of nutters. (And you are nowhere near as bad as many of the people in your community, for sure. At least I hope your behaviour on this forum indicates that.)

        • I don’t speak on behalf of, or defend anyone, who uses foul/abusive language as much as it is difficult at times to fathom the degree of verbal cruelty meted on the Promised Messiah(as) and his followers by our opponents.

          Now,we dont really want to get into the pot and kettle debate cos your end is not quit made out of milk either.

          Having said that, facts are facts and our personal grudges and differences must never come in the way of our seeking Allah.

          • It’s hard to take, I know. I used to find it hard too. I have to say, much of it is warranted.

            And you’re right, grudges mustn’t come in the way of seeking truth. If I was like that, I’d never engage with Ahmadis like you at all, given some of the absolute venom, hatred and filth that comes towards me from Ahmadis. You would be staggered. I can’t believe I used to know some of these people.

          • It is unbecoming of a true Ahmadi to have any type of hatred for anyone regardless of their beliefs.

            I may not agree with you, or even approve or like what you say or do, but I do not have a speck of hatred for you and Allah is a witness of what is in my heart!

          • Is it unbecoming of an Ahmadi to have any type of hatred for anyone regardless of their beliefs? Should you love all?

            Do you realise that this is un-Islamic? (You have read the Qur’an I hope…)

            Do you realise that Mirza himself asked you to hate “mullahs”?

          • I have stated earlier that I have not hatred for anyone, this is what I have heard, read(in the books of the Promised Messiah(as)) and seen practiced by true Ahmadi Muslims.

            I don’t speak on behalf of anyone else, I speak based on my experiences and observations.

            And no, I dont hate Mulla’s, but I definitely despise their tactics, approach and their pure unadulterated hatred for anyone that disagrees with them and in my opinion their hatred for Islam.

          • Mahmood,
            Once again we request you to please have a first hand experience and not base your comments on hearesay. I have been with Muslim Scholars and definitely they are not like that at all. In fact all my experiences show me something that I feel very uneasy about. A lot of Ahmadi’s especially their leaders, political activists and scholars ( i dont want to name them for I respect their confidentiality) have very deep hatred of muslims and their Imams and they dont hesitate to go to any extent, in public, to display their anger and hatred without any guilt. If you dont believe me, please do an independant study for yourself and then you will realize it. Whereas, muslims are in general very tolerant and peaceful people unless you do something very wrong to them or their religion they have nothing against you.

          • i do not belive that every non ahmadi muslim is going to hell. i do not belive tha every mulvi of muslims is bad. i do not believe every non ahmadi muslim is bad.

            but i do not deny that they way ulema of islam in pakistand treated and still treating ahmadies is a thing which you guys should be proud of.
            i remember waking up in morning and seeing the abuse to my prophet written on the walls of our home.
            should i feel happy for such persons ?
            Should u feel happy for those persons who disgrace the holy prophet (saw)?
            no , not at all.

            promised messiah is a prophet for me and i respect him (as) .

            however, with the core of my heart i wanna say that i did not hate these ulemas (though i do use the term mullah for these persons ) .
            . but it is true as well that sometime heart get filled with hatred for such persons but sooner of latter that subsides.
            they will get the reward of their deeds.

            in short , i request that u guys exaggerate the things and enter our hearts and issue the verdict that we hate u guys
            thats is wrong

          • I wish rest of ur jammat also think like that
            coz what I see all the time that they just keep shouting Mullah this Mullah that and any one who does not agree with ur beliefs ahmadis start declaring them extremist Mullah.

            I am sure many other non ahmadis here are being declared that
            like I was 🙂

      • Mahmood,

        And what did this so called MGA prophet called those who did not believe in him “Zurriyatu Baghaya (Children of Prostitutes)”…………!!!

        No wonder you follow such a prophet!

  6. What type of comment was that Mahmood ? You are telling us not to bring ur *promised messiah* writings into this topic just because we dont believe in him ? Are you okay my friend ? So we should first blindly accept your prophet then use his writings ? Grow up please !
    You should really pay attention to your own prophetic books first then come and speak of Quran/Hadith! And about that comment you made about Jesus. That was part 36th in my list of ahmadiyya Hatred for all and love for none !

  7. Dear Mahmood,

    Please read the link Shahid refered and give us one by one answer. The book you referred has been read by us and is crap.

    The first reference says that Hazrat Isa (as) was inferior most of all the prophets. Did you know it was your belief. Did your Jamaat tell you about it.

    And do you believe in it? Do you believe that Hazrat Isa (as) is inferior most of all the prophets?

    • Ya know, I will ask one simple question. It will answer a bunch of your questions.

      Allah has clearly stated in the Quran that Prophets are of varying spiritual stature (or superiority). You have heard of these level as described by the Prophet(saw) during he time of Miraj. You know the various levels of heaven aka spirituality)

      There are example of Prophets occurring simultaneously, some superior than the other.

      Hazrat Musa(as) and Hazrat Harun(as). Tell me who was superior? Who received revelation and in whose presence did the Israelites make a calf god?

      Hazrat Issa(as) and Hazrat Yahya(as). Who baptized who?

      Did you take the baiat from a person that was spiritually higher than you??

      Only those who are enlightened would understand.

      • 1. Allah told us that some prophets were of higher rank in an attempt to explain the status of Muhammad (saw) to the world. Allah knows exactly why they differ in rank. That is none of our business. Allah didnt deem it essential to give us that info.

        1.a. Allah never differentiated between law-bearing and non-law bearing. In this respect all prophets are the same. They all had the ability to alter the law as Allah advised them. Whether they exercised that right is another story altogether. All prophets were INDEPEDENT, they all received their revelation through gabriel and their revelations formed parts of the prayers.

        1.b. Allah does say that some prophets are messengers, but that is a different topic altogether.

        2. Hazrat Harun (as) was an independent prophet (see the writings of MGA). We dont have the details of his mission. All we know is that he helped Musa (as) and that he followed the revelation of Allah, not the orders of Musa (as). Hazrat Haruns (as) revelations are lost as are the revelations of Musa (as), Nuh (as) and even Esa (as). The old testament and new testament dont have the exact revelations given to prophets like Musa (as) and Esa (as). One last point, the jews and christians dont even consider that Harun (as) was a prophet at all.

        3. Why are you comparing Yayha (as) with Esa (as). You have no right to do that.

        Didnt the HP (saw) say

        Bukhari
        Volume 4, Book 55, Number 608:
        Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:

        The Prophet said, “One should not say that I am better than Jonah (i.e. Yunus) bin Matta.” So, he mentioned his father Matta. The Prophet mentioned the night of his Ascension and said, “The prophet Moses was brown, a tall person as if from the people of the tribe of Shanu’a. Jesus was a curly-haired man of moderate height.” He also mentioned Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire, and Ad-Dajjal.

        • My God! You never cease to amaze me with your concoction of gibberish!

          1. Thank God you admit that prophets can be of differing ranks

          1a. How could you say all prophets were independent?? Was Jesus not a follower of Mosaic law. Infact didn’t the Prophet(saw) follows mosaic law until instructed otherwise by Allah? What are you talking about?? Prophets have been receiving revelation which was perfected with the advent of the Prophet(saw)

          1b. Wrong, Allah says that Prophets can be Nabi and Rasool at the same time. Remember Hazrat Ismael(as)??

          2. Hazrat Harun(as) was an independent prophet???? My God! He was Musa(as) brother and followed the revelation of Musa(as). Were the followers of Harun(as) different form those of Hazrat Musa(as)?? Where do you come up with these stories man??

          3. I have no right to compare?? Then why do you start with point #1 comparing the Prophet(saw) to others? I asked u a simple question above, who baptized who?

          Who is saying better or worse nauzubillah. We are talking of RANKS and comparing RANKS. We are not doing an empirical analysis either but merely stating the facts!

          And again you are told in the hadith you quotes that on the night of Miraj the Prophet(saw) meets Hazrat Musa(as) and Hazrat Issa(as). But Moses is dead and Jesus is alive in your books even though the Prophet met both in spiritual form i.e. not bodily!!!

          • Dear Mahmood,

            Apart from this debate – just answer the questions.

            Do you know it is part of your belief that Hazrat Isa as is inferior most of all the prophets? Yes or No.

            Do you agree with this belief? Yes or No.

      • Dear Mahmood,

        I have you a simple question do you know it is part of your belief that Hazrat Isa as is inferior most of all the prophets? Yes or No. Do you agree with this belief? Yes or No.

        • newobserver,
          we belive hazrat Messiah Maood (as) was superior to hazrat Essa (as) , and yes as far as the superiority is concerned hazrat Essa (as) was not superior to hazrat Ibrahim (as) , nor he (as) was superior to hazrat Mosa (as).
          does it creates any problem for YOU ?

          • Dear Khalid,

            This is called sawal gandum jawab chana. Please answer the question – I have no problems with your answers. I repeat and I would request Mahmood to reply:

            Do you know it is part of your belief that Hazrat Isa as is inferior most of all the prophets? Yes or No.
            Do you agree with this belief? Yes or No.

          • Islam ask us not to compare prophets
            secondly If Mirza was superior then how he was Misl-e-Massih?

            why Prophet (PUBH) never said that he himself will return?

          • yeah we have a problem with that.

            Muhammad (saw) would not allow muslims to even say that he (muhammad saw) was greater than Younus (as)..So what right did your dad (MGA) have to say things of that nature? prophets are brothers, not competitors…

            read the hadith that i referenced..DUMB DUMB!

  8. Xia, stick to the topic, its bodily ascent and descent of Jesus(as), and the fact that he has been alive for over 2000years, that we are addressing here and you are in complete agreement with the Christians on this.

    The Christians have been subscribing to this dramabazi for over 2000 years and you are with them in this racket!

    Tell, me don’t you think its is high time that Jesus(as) descend, aren’t you looking for guidance and leadership??

    • Christians believe he died and then ascended and now sits in heaven as GOD

      we dont so its not similar

      yes we believe that he was raised physcially and will return (but not as GOD) and thats what Prophet Muhammad (PUBH) and his companions believed along with classical scholors of Islam

      • Zia, the Quran time and time again tells us the Hazrat Issa(as) has died!

        The Quran is full of similitudes:

        Can you tell me the difference between the following two verse from Surah Maryam?

        وَسَلٰمٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوْتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا
        And peace was on him the day he was born, and the day he died, and peace there will be on him the day he will be raised up to life again.
        (19:16)

        and

        وَالسَّلٰمُ عَلَىَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدْتُّ وَيَوْمَ اَمُوْتُ وَيَوْمَ اُبْعَثُ حَيًّا‏
        ‘And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace there will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.’
        (19:34)

        • Mahmood you are caught again!

          1) Your own translators have shown the difference;

          Muhammad Ali’s translation:

          19:15 And peace on him the day he was born and the day he DIED, and the day he is raised to life!

          19:33 And peace on me the day I was born, and the day I DIE, and the day I am raised to life.

          Sher Ali’s translation:

          19:16 And peace was on him the day he was born, and the day he DIED, and peace there will be on him the day he shall be raised up to life again.

          19:34 And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace there WILL BE on me the day I SHALL DIE, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.

          * verse numbering varies on Qadiani sites

          2) Actually both have translated the first verse wrong as it does not give the past tense but future only. This is the intellectual level of your scholars!!!

          At both places future tense is used and this fact doesn’t support the Qadiani belief because future is indefinite and the verses only imply that w.t.r. to the points about which the verses speak they shall die in future and no Muslim disagrees with it.

          Also please shower your wisdom about the ‘noble translation’ of your scholars or correct me if I misquoted!

        • Mahmood where in these verse it says tat ISA(AS) has DIED?

          or u have started assuming stuff again?

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