Open Letter – Part 3 – Pen and Knowledge

There was a time, under leadership better suited for the times, when Ahmadiyya did something with the little money that they reeled in.  Although most of what they did was ultimately useless, at least the chanda-payers saw it being invested somewhere.  So, the agricultural research in Sind came to naught except create real-estate wealth for the Mirza Family; and the buildings and gardens of the post-graduate ‘degree college’ in Rabwah (Chenab Nagar) are in ruins (never completed); for decades, jars of preserved specimens remained locked up in a room in ‘Tibiya College’ (medical school).  In an era of unprecedented quality in private education in Pakistan, and close to 100 universities in the country, the Ahmadiyya are still complaining about the nationalisation of their T.I. school and college in 1974.

Similarly, the ‘King of the Pen’, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, failed to inspire any writers or ‘Pen jihadists’ as the Ahmadiyya like to call themselves.  Not a single writer of repute, not a single author of any renown, nor a single poet of recognition.  After all, Urdu is spoken in India, and there is cross-over between Urdu and Hindi literature.  Even if Pakistanis persecuted them, someone from their ranks could have been recognized in India.  So barren is the literary landscape of the Ahmadiyya, that it is surprising, even taking into account the absolute literary mess of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s writings.

So, while the Islamic world is busy writing and publishing, and Muslims are among the thought-leaders of today, Ahmadiyya are the ‘true Muslims’ sitting in their little town and creating endless numbers of ‘Sultan-ul-Qalam societies’.  Is this jihad with the pen?  Amazing.  Not quite, if you look at the latest numbers that I have got (top-secret document leaked from Rabwah): 88,000 Ahmadis in Pakistan, 62,000 in India and 2,000 in Bangladesh.

So, while the alma mater of Dr. Abdus Salam, Government College, Lahore, Pakistan,  has created a prestigious Abdus Salam School of Mathematical Sciences in 2003 in his honour, those that cry ‘persecution’ have done nothing except write articles and letters condemning Pakistan for not recognizing its learned son.  GC Lahore, one of the oldest and most prestigious institutions, has also named the Salam Chair in Physics in 1999.

So, dear Ahmadi friends and family, while Chanda collection has gone up 1500 times since 1974, all you get is MTA and homeopathic ads in Alfazl (picture below, retrieved from Alfazl 13 March 2010).  Why do you want to relegate your offspring to supporting this family business?

(Ad: Guaranteed complete eradication of Asthma, guranteed treatment of Hepatitis B and C — all using homeopathy with ‘oxygen therapy’ on machines imported from Japan — using ultrasound and ECG)

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66 thoughts on “Open Letter – Part 3 – Pen and Knowledge

  1. Should Jamaat spend millions of Rs. in building a college or university and then hope that it will not be nationalized again?

    Not a single writer of repute?

    Ahmadiyya movement is a religious organization. And the religious literature produced by Jamaat is without doubt of excellent quality. You may wish to see Tafseer Kabeer, a number of new easy to read translations of Holy Quran, a vast variety of articles publsihed in numerous publications in many languages. But, as you are an opponent, you will choose to ignore the quality of this literature.

    Ahmadis have also excelled in secular spheres of life. They are successful in every field they choose to adopt. Talent is a gift which does not discriminate on the basis of faith so you may argue that many poets are better than Ubaidullah Aleem, or many Jazz artists are better than Yousuf Lateef. There will be many better miniature artists than Saira Waseem. But the fact is, these people have excelled in their chosen fields. There are many many names.. where should I start. Malik Ram, Akhtar Malik, Abdus Salam are from a previous generation. In the current generation, I am aware of people who are gold medalists from Oxford and Cambridge. There are scientists, businessmen and other professionals who are contributing to their respective societies in the name of humanity.

    Thought leaders: Please tell me where this modern thought is coming from? Be it Sheikh Tantawi or Qaradawi.. Even hard line anti-ahmadis like Dr. Israr etc are borrowing from Ahmadiyya literature to re-interpret Islam.

    I agree that liberal elements in GCU have made considerable efforts to get Prof. Salam recognized, but your friend Shahid recently met Rashid Ali, who believes that Salam’s nobel prize was a jewish conspiracy. Was it?? Should you agree with your dear friend, which happens to be the opnion of many orthodos pakistanis?

    Secret document: Yeah right!

    • Wow, this makes you look pretty hot-headed and I have to say, caught off guard. Rattled?

      Ahmadiyya movement is a religious organization.

      Ahmadiyya “movement” for the enlargement of Mirza khandaan’s wealth is a cult.

      And the religious literature produced by Jamaat is without doubt of excellent quality.

      LOL. Let’s see what you’ve got.

      You may wish to see Tafseer Kabeer,

      Oh man, that’s a bad start! Nobody in the world is interested in this except Ahmadis, which speaks volumes for its quality.

      a number of new easy to read translations of Holy Quran,

      Do these include the distortions, interpolations and fabrications for which your cult is known? Or have you removed these? By the way, nobody is using your translations except Mirzais. Muslims have some excellent translations, which are of higher quality and greater accuracy than anything the Mirzais have ever produced, especially in English.

      a vast variety of articles publsihed in numerous publications in many languages. ignore the quality of this literature.

      You mean like your blog in the Telgraph, a virulently Islamophobic paper. whose religious affairs editor couldn’t be bothered to check up on your stupid claim of 200M? LOL. Your writing is OK Lutf, and I don’t always disagree with you, but it’s not a patch on just about any Muslim I read.

      Ahmadis have also excelled in secular spheres of life

      Well, as I said recently, not a single person in the modern day that can be named of any import at all. That’s why you resorted to the past.

      Yousuf Lateef

      Yes, Lateef was good, but his time was the 60s. Come on, you’re clutching at straws here! This is really embarrassing for me to see you implode this way!

      Shahid recently met Rashid Ali, who believes that Salam’s nobel prize was a jewish conspiracy. Was it?? Should you agree with your dear friend, which happens to be the opnion of many orthodos pakistanis?

      Well, this clearly shows you have gone off the chart in your straw-clutching. How tenuous and how desperate. I met Dr. Rashid, you ascribe something to Dr. Rashid, and then you ascribe that position to me by extensions and to “many orthodox Pakistanis?” What’s an orthodox Pakistani by the way?

      As for the 88k, sounds spot-on. Disprove it. I dare you.

      By the way, what’s your cult’s position on the murder of `ulama who oppose you?

    • @lutf

      Lutf, by boy, my friend…I advise you to browse alislam.org and see how many young up and coming ahmadi writers exist theirin…

      You see, you rarely understand the posts that are made here, similarily, MGA rarely understood what Yakesh was saying to him (see the Jesus theory and prophethood theory). You appear to suffer from the same disease as your father MGA–that was a joke…father..hahah

      OK, back on topic…Ahmad, nice post, i like it alot!

      Lutf, have you heard of James Ellision? He was the first muslim to ever be elected to Congress, guess what, HE”S NOT AHMADI!!! He did his oath on a Quran, which was a George Sale Quran from the 1700’s…

      It took muslims a long time to wake up…but we are here now!

  2. Dear Lutf – you prove the point:
    1. Ahmadiyya has no intention or ability to establish any institution again. 1974 one-time nationalisation of ONE school and ONE college is 37 years old now. FC College and many others have been re-privatized. So, all the rest of the instiutions are insane – what if they are re-privatised?

    2. Aleem sahib was a good poet, but second-rate, no publisher in India or Pakistan makes money from his books – a sign of a tier-1 author/poet/writer. In fact, it was his poverty that he came close to his father’s jamaat in the last part of his life – otherwise Jamaat never recognized him.

    3. So, you are saying that Ahmadi authors and writers and thinkers have some kind of lock on them that they cannot write or publish in the modern era, while others take their ideas and become famous? Wow.

    Keep it up – you circular logic proves the point. 🙂

  3. “(Ad: Guaranteed complete eradication of Asthma, guranteed treatment of Hepatitis B and C — all using homeopathy with ‘oxygen therapy’ on machines imported from Japan — using ultrasound and ECG)”

    LOL! CULT!

    88,000 Ahmadis in Pakistan, 62,000 in India and 2,000 in Bangladesh.

    Sounds spot-on.

  4. Forgot to mention Parvez Parwazi.

    Also, every bright intellectual among muslims is branded Qadiani straight away. What does that tell you about the influence of Ahmadiyyat in the modern world?

    • Also, every bright intellectual among muslims is branded Qadiani straight away.

      It’s precisely this kind of vague piffle that gives away how little substance you have. I mean, is this a fact? Where is your analysis? Talk to us about numbers, demographics, homeopathy, anything!

      Ahmadiyya has no influence on the “modern world”. Who are you trying to kid? Mirza was a joke!

      You bring nothing new except another impostor claimant of prophethood. Sometimes you should just read yourself!

    • An ahmadi Quran (muhammad ali’s translation 1917) influenced the Nation of islam in america, ahmadiyya was such a troubling new invention, that the black man of north america didnt want it.

      The black man in america decided to use ahmadiyya concepts and create their own religion. Elijah muhammad claimed that Master Fard Muhammad was the Mahdi for the muslims and the messiah for the christians –I wonder where he got that idea from? The answer is simple: an ahmadiyya Quran.

      This is what ahmadiyya indirectly created in the USA. You see, the black man read about ahmadiyyat through this Quran, then he further twisted a “twisted religion”, and created yet another false version of islam…

      This is what ahmadiyya gave to north america…

  5. Parwazi is a joke if there was ever one. Sorry about that but I have met him a few times, and in mushairas also, so my personal opinion. His biggest claim to fame is that he is the brother of Nasim Mahdi – seriously that is how he is introduced 🙂

    Lutf, your anger is encouraging. And obviously you are out of touch with the intellectual progress of the world and the Islamic world.

    I was at an identical angry stage about one year before I left the cult. And then I took some quality time out to read what Dr. Tariq Ramadan was saying, and what others were saying, and how they were saying it.

    And I left the cult! I hope you do to. The intelligence is there, the anger is there, it is just a matter of measuring things against a rational constant criteria.

    • I have never lost faith that Lutf will join us insha’Allah. Oh he can hate us, he can rail against us, he can scorn us, but sooner or later he will have to look at himself in the mirror. Truth is truth, even when, especially when, it is not initially palatable. May Allah (SWT) guide him to Islam.

  6. What in the world are you guys talking about? I have not uttered a single word directed towards you or expressed any negative emotion in my posts on this thread.

    I have only provided Akbar with some answers which you found irksome.

    On the other hand, your posts are always aggressive and most of your comments contain direct attacks on Promised Messiah (as).

    Who is angry?

    • Aggressive? My friend, if you want to see aggressive, you want to see what your cohorts say to me.

      You haven’t provided any answers, just hyperbole, all rebutted.

      As for Mirza, well of course we’re hardly about to defend him, are we? The man was a charlatan, and you know it, you just won’t face it, yet. The time will come, insha’Allah.

    • We have faith that you will see that MGA was a simple magician, this guy married a 6-7 year old (mirza mubarak ahmad) with a babygirl that was 1-2 years old. He did this to seek the favor of allah. He did this in attempt to save his child from death! NORMAL BEHAVE DONT BEHAVE LIKE THAT!

      Who does a nikkah with a 1-2 year old to seek the favor of allah. What kind of twisted mind is this?? MGA is a magician!!

      Join us!!!

  7. 2:130] رَبَّنَا وَابْعَثْ فِيْهِمْ رَسُوْلاً مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُوْا عَلَيْهِمْ اٰيٰتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتٰبَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَ يُزَكِّيْهِمْ‌ؕ اِنَّكَ اَنْتَ الْعَزِيْزُ الْحَكِيْمُ‏
    ‘And, our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from among themselves, who may recite to them Thy Signs and teach them the Book and Wisdom and may purify them; surely, Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.’

    above prayer was of hazrat Ibrahim (as) and it took thousand of year in materializing in the form of holy prophet hazrat Muhammad (saw) .

    And u demand just after 100 years of Jammat creation the Jamat Ahmadiyyat , Ahmadies should be the
    1) top scientist
    2) top writers
    3) top mathematicians
    etc etc,

    listen this was the promise give to hazrat Essa (as)
    [3:56] اِذْ قَالَ اللّٰهُ يٰعِيْسٰىۤ اِنِّىْ مُتَوَفِّيْكَ وَرَافِعُكَ اِلَىَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِيْنَ كَفَرُوْا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِيْنَ اتَّبَعُوْكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِيْنَ كَفَرُوْۤا اِلٰى يَوْمِ الْقِيٰمَةِ‌‌ۚ ثُمَّ اِلَىَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَاَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيْمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيْهِ تَخْتَلِفُوْنَ‏
    When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you dif

    that whoever follow the Jesus will be above those who have denied it ,
    This is the same prmoise with the jamate ahmadiyyat as well.

    but it took 300 years for the Followers of the Jesus to overcome on the non believers , so shall it takes us 300 years as well

    so this thing is laughable for me that one man demands from ahmadies the fulfillment of the prophecy just after one hundred years
    when there are examples of such prophecies which completed after 300 years , which took more then 2500 years to fulfill.

    Strange are the ways of non believers ,

    those prophecies which fulfills in front of their eyes , they reject them
    and those which are destined to fulfill after long time , they demand why it have not fulfilled.

    Strange are what ways of non believers. O GOD show them the right path

    • Takfeerist and not a single response to the issues raised. Islam had conquered the world in under a hundred years. In this Internet age, barely anyone has heard the name of Mirza. Homeopathy. Explain.

      • Is this what u wanna ask , My lost brother in faith .
        go to the hadith and u shall learn about history of prophet.
        World ahve not seen just one prophet , Hazrat Muhammad (saw). He (saw) was the Leader of the all the Prophets , no prophet can be compared with him (saw) on a single ground.
        whether on the base of the Revelation which came down on him (saw).
        whether on the bases of the success which he (saw) got it .
        Whether on the bases of virtues which he (saw) had ,
        whether on the bases of the Companions which he (saw) had .

        so why u comparing hazrat messiah maood (as) with hazrat Muhammad (saw)?

        in hadith there comes that when hazrat Muhammad (saw) went to the sky , He (saw) saw some prophet who were alone and no one accepted them , there was not a single follower of those prophets
        there were yet some prophet who were with just some fellows

        (5) Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: The prophet said, “The people were displayed in front of me and I saw one prophet passing by with a large group of his followers, and another prophet passing by with only a small group of people, and another prophet passing by with only ten (persons), and another prophet passing by with only five (persons), and another prophet passed by alone. ……….. (Book #76, Hadith #549) bukhari

        now what u do my lost brother , u have been destroyed completely .
        will u deny those prophets because hazrat Muhammad (saw) turned all the arabs into muslims and they failed to do so .
        NO u cannot do it , because every prophet need not achieve that level of success which hazrat Muhammad (saw) ,the Khata munabeen , got.

        My above points are still valid dear, base of above allegation is totally wrong.

        when prophecies are completed thousands of the years after then why should i bother to even answer above query at all.
        why should any ahmadie provide u the list of top hundered scientists , and doctors who are ahmadie ?

        Time will come , when we rule. this is the destiny of the ahmadiyyat .
        and if u see with my eyes , u shall see the ahmadiyyat ruling over all the world in the next 200 years.

        • Dude, you didnt even answer any of the points raised in this thread? Can you read english?

          The messiah to come was supposed to be successful within for 40 years. It is the ahmadis that reject this hadith, or willfully misinterpret it….

          remember, ahmadis are the first group of people who ascribe themselves as muslims, who call bukhari and muslim as less than 100% authentic, since these people publised thier works…

          Do you get that? Do you comprehend that?

          FYI: MGA claimed that in his capacity as the second coming of Muhammad, that Muhammad came with more bounty..etc etc In other words the second of Muhammad was greater than the first!!

          I wish you had a brain…if you did, u would leave ahmadiyyat..

          • i am sorry rationalist , but u did not got my point .
            U are forcing ur view on us . No where did we said that we shall be made victorious in 40 years .
            When prophets comes , the laid down the foundations and when the final victory is acheived , this is attributed to teh Prophets
            hazrat Muhammad (saw) was given the keys of Persia and other eimpires at a time when he (saw) along with his companions had nothing to eat.
            Yet the final victory and destruction of those empire was completed not in the time of the hazrat Muhammad (saw) but via the hazrat Ummar (rz)

            so this always happens and this time it shall happen as well.
            I understand what u said, and i am firmly grounded in my points as well. And u cannot ignore it and prove it wrong.

            Some prophecies do not come true in few years , they require certain periods . and the mocking of topic starter is not justified at all.

          • “u did not got my point”—I think you meant: “u did not get my point”.

            Anyhow, there are many mutwatir (authentic) hadith that explicitly quote the HP (saw) as stating that the Esa would live for 40 years and be buried in next to the prophet.

            ABU DAUD:
            Book 37, Number 4310:
            Narrated AbuHurayrah:

            “The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.”

            Remember, in 1880, MGA started prophecisizing that he would live up until age 80. This was the hadith that he was indirectly making an inference towards. In fact, every “age prophecy” that MGA ever made was in regards to this hadith…

            DUMB DUMB!!!! read a book…

          • i told u , u cannot thrust ur view on us .
            u think every thing should have been done in just 40 years. go ahead and keep believing it . but as i believe , our jamat will progress and take over the reign of the world in 300 years , as told by hazrat Messiah maood (as).

            if u think within the 40 years , hazrat Essa (as) will take over the whole world , then keep believing and wait for that time. u shall not see it happening till ur death.

            as far as the hadith regarding the burrial of the Jesus is concerned the words of teh hadith are
            يدفن معي في قبري
            he will be buried with me in my grave.

            so from where and how u translated the hadith with the word NEXT
            “buried in next to the prophet. ”

            anyway , u did not bothered to take my point and answer it .

          • Well Khalid, you cannot thrust your opinion on us. And you have found te limit of your religion. You are part of a new religion and we are Muslims and never the twain shall meet. You can stay astray or you can rejoin the ummah of Muhammad (saw) – the choice is yours.

          • 1. I dont think anything about 40 years, this is not my personal opinion you brainless mutant! This is a mutawatir (authentic) hadith! This is Muhammad (saw) saying this! Its not the rationalist…trust me, im not a prophet! DUMB DUMB

            2. Your fascination with 300 years is a stretch, MGA must have been high on opium the day he said that! And he never said that ahmadiyyat would succeed in that timeframe, the magician said that people would give up waiting for Jesus in that timeframe…

            3. Can you give a reference to the hadith you refer to in terms of the burial of Jesus? You do understand the theory of references right?

            4. You havent asnwered any of my questions, which is typical ahmadiyya stufff…

            5. What is the official ahmadiyya position on this hadith?? the one that I quoted…

          • 1) The words are of hazrat Muhammad (saw) but on the base of that , the castle building is done by u.

            u think every thing should have been completed within the 40 years.
            i do not agree with it.
            Prophets comes and lay down the foundation , and when the final victory is achieved , it is always attributed to teh Prophets.

            This is the rule of the prophecies. One example is that when hazrat Muhammad (saw) was given the keys of the Syria and other countries . but hazrat Muhammad (saw) did not conquered those areas himself .
            does the prophecy failed ?
            no prophecy fulfilled via the hazrat Ummar (rz) , but as all was done due to the blessing of the hazrat Muhammad (as)
            so conquering those couturiers is attributed to the hazrat Muhamamd (saw) , though physically hazoor (saw) did not conquered them .

            u claim a very clever boy , lets see how clever u are , to understand this point.

            so this time it is gonna happen again , whatever is attributed tot eh hazrat Essa (as) will surely get completed and all the credit will go to the hazrat messiah Maood (as) ,

            However , u , like Jews will keep waiting for that Messiah that shall come and give u back ur lost power.
            and keep waiting ,
            They also have the same high hopes with their Messiah which u have ,
            they are stilling waiting for him , after rejecting the true Messiah
            and u shall keep waiting for him coming as well, after rejection ur true messiah .

            this point was raised by my before , but as usual ignored by u .

          • We accept the last prophet (saw) and all prophets. We make no differentiation between them. You are part of a cult that aligns itself with the biggest enemies of Islam and is even more Islamophobic than the worst of them.

          • Allah said that those who desire to take a way in between and create a differentiation between prophets are KAFIRS!!

            I didnt say it! This was one of the biggest reasons that the Jews and Christians were stamped as kafirs.

            Ahmadis create differences in prophethood, like law-bearing, non-law bearing, ummati….this is all mumbo jumbo!!!

            Allah told us what these people are….I have an article in the works that will really hurt the ahmadis emotionally!!

          • 2)
            GOD told hazrat Essa (as)

            When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you dif
            [3:56]

            How many years it took Christians to achieve that success ,
            do think , if u have the power to think .
            in just 100 years we are in 195 coutries , who can stop us in next 200 years to took over the world,

            will u do it , who failed to stop us from spreading in 195 countries .?

          • Islam took a hundred years to conquer most of the world. Conquer, not send a couple of people on a plane or a boat to some far off place to create a PR presence point.

          • Islam is not the only religion of the world,
            there are many other religion , there are many prophets who could nto cause a single person to accept them

            ———
            (5) Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: The prophet said, “The people were displayed in front of me and I saw one prophet passing by with a large group of his followers, and another prophet passing by with only a small group of people, and another prophet passing by with only ten (persons), and another prophet passing by with only five (persons), and another prophet passed by alone. ……….. (Book #76, Hadith #549) bukhari
            —————-

            so u cannot Use ” islam conquered the world ” as a universal rule of acceptance of prophets at all .

          • sorry last sentence should be
            will u so called Muslim do it , who failed to stop us from spreading in 195 countries .?

          • You continue to do takfeer on the ummah of Muhammad (saw) – you merely expose yourselves as the unIslamic cult that you are.

          • في مشكاة المصابيح..
            6562 – (ينزل عيسى ابن مريم إلى الأرض، فيتزوج، ويولد له، ويمكث خمساً وأربيعن سنة، ثم يموت فيدفن معي في قبري، فأقوم أنا وعيسى ابن مريم من قبر واحد بين أبي بكر وعمر

            Ohh , i forgot i am talking with a DUMB person , who do not even know how Google and reach within second to the reference.
            U call other DUMB , but this shows me how DUMB , actually u are .

            any way , this hadith tells that hazrat Essa (as) shall live in world for 45 years and will be buried in the Grave of the hazrat Muhammad (saw) and he (saw) along with the Jesus will resurrect from one grave between the grave of hazrat Ab bakar (rz) and hazrat Ummar (rz).

          • 4 & 5 )

            i can only laugh on ur assertion that i did not answered ur question .

            the answer of that hadith is very long , in short , this hadith is full of metaphorical language ,
            Killing of swine does not mean actually killing of swing ,etc etc,
            such thing cannot enter in ur mind , so better i do not waste time in explaining that hadith.

          • oh yes, the common ahmadi answer, “metaphoric language”. You guys use this argument whenever you cant explain something.

            What about mutawafeeka? Why is that excluded from metaphoric language? If your business can apply “metaphoric expression” to whatever you want, than why not the muslims?

            1. I dont think that everything will happen in 40 years!!! Your brain resembles that of a farm animal. The HP (saw) told us that Esa would accomplish everything in 40 years. The HP (saw) meant that Esa would be successful in his (esa) lifetime. You deny this statement of the HP (saw).

            2. Even the yaleshi prophet that you submit to predicted that he would live for 40 additional years, beginning in 1880. What hadith do you think he was referring too? MGA said over 10 times…80 years or more…

            3. Allah does not say “natural death”, its a special circumstances death. Your company added the world natural there.

            3.b. Where does it say that he will be sent along the silk road to kashmir and spend another 90 years on the planet? SIMPLE ANSWER: It doesnt!

            3.c. This Quranic verse (3:55) gives me the impression that Jesus was caused to expire, or his stay on earth was suspended until further notice. It doesnt lead a normal person to the conclusion that Esa lived another 90 years.

            3.d. In terms of 3:55, allah told Esa this when Esa was 33 years old, not when Esa was 125. In the ahmadiyya perspective Esa didnt even know what happened after he left Palestine…

            4. Is it so hard to type out the name of hadith book that you are referring too? I still dont know what hadith book you are referring too….

          • 1) keep thinking then , what else can i do for u , But it have never happened in history that GOD sent his prophet and in 40 years every one accepted them and became pious and those who do not accept him will be killed immediately and a very beautiful world will be formed within no time.
            Prophets comes , lay down the foundation and final victory is always attributed to them , this is what was the case with hazrat Muhammad (saw)

            —-
            2) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand.” Abu Huraira added: Allah’s Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them). (Book #52, Hadith #220)
            ——-

            this is what shall happen this time . U reject it , go ahead and do . But u cannot prove me wrong at all .

            2,3a,3b,3c ) hmm shall not answer it now .

            4) i gave the book name it is written at the top ,

            في مشكاة المصابيح..

            go and check the last quoted hadith , did not i gave the name of the book ?
            grow up and read after washing eyes

  8. Out of the “thought leaders”, how many religious scholars consider apostasy as a personal matter and how many consider it pubishable by death?

    The answer will tell you how secure they are in their belief in the truth of Islam.

          • You mean the advertisement in Alfazl? Now you want complimentary therapists to stop advertising for their trade?

          • How disingenuous. What was Mirza Tahir doing? Oh I forgot, following the sunnah of Ghulam Ahmad, who sold snake oil for plague and got banned for quackery. Frauds, the lot of you, especially the ones who defend the fraud as if butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths. Disgusting.

        • Homepathy appears to be a business endeavor of Mirza Tahir Ahmad, who was a total loser in “life”. He must have made millions off of this!!

          When Mirza Tahir Ahmad was in London, his dad got him enrolled into a college, this college was not going to accept tahir ahmad based on the fact that tahir was a complete idiot!!! Mahmud Ahmad knew the person who in charge of enrollments and paid him off to enroll his son….

          Anyhow…tahir ahmad didnt even care about school, he was there in england to hitchhike and make friends!!! And boy did he ever, mirza tahir ahmad socialized and hitchhiked and had a great time, all the chanda payers money…

          then he returned to rabwah, his dad got married with a cousin of his choice, his dad gave a 3 bedroom house, 25 acres worth of land and a job in the finance dept of…

          Tahir Ahmad was a total loser who’s had his daddy give him everything. In the USA, we are mostly middle class workers who frown on the lives of the well to do….

          ^ thats why ahmadiyyat didnt appeal to the black man in america who was poor…

          • i cannot answer those allegation which are just the product of ones own thought
            it is ur thought he (rz) used homeopathy as business , i consider it a blatant lie.
            it is ur thought he (rz) nauzobillah a failure, while i see him the most successful man of his time , May GOD bless him with .

            ur thinking cannot prove any thing. but yeah GOD knows very well who is right and who is wrong . lets those part be decided by him, which is the by product on one own inner sinister motives and desires.
            regard

          • Khalid, your shallow thinking has been exposed here my friend. You cannot have an opinion on facts. Facts are facts.

          • ^ dude, at least he’s funny, he actually amuses me! I like this guy!!! Some of his theories keep me laughing all day…

          • the same is true with me raitionlist , i also laugh specially when u put forth ur imagination

    • Look Lutf, you are alien to what Islam meant 1400 years ago. Back then, 99% of muslims were in the military. If you left Islam, you left a military organization, most people who left were giving up secrets to the enemy!!!!

      In the US military if you quit and join and al-qaeda or the communists, THE PUNISHMENT IS DEATH! Uniform Code of Military Justice, look it up.

      Remember, Hazrat Ayesha was placed on house arrest for her indiscretions against Hazrat Ali. The rules are bendable, based on the situation!

      If a general for the US military quit his post and joined Al-Qaeda, what do you think would happen to him upon his capture?

      And remember, im smarter than you buddy!

        • Once again, your question is extremely rhetorical…

          In one case (jihad) the ahmadis argue that the Quran is situation and remedial. But in the case of apostacy, ahmadis totally forget about their jihad contention…

          Now, if islam is a 1 nation, like it was during the time of Hazrat Abu Bakr, then these rules apply as stated above. You see, it wasnt just Islam who practiced the killing of traitors..it was every single nation that came into power…

          When the Europeans raped the Americas, if a soldier decided to quit the army and join the side of the native americans–his punishment was death!!!! This is how you treat traitors…

          In the 21st century, if a muslim quits Islam and remains quiet and doesnt join any other RIVAL faction, then he has no punishment whatsoever…

          But if a muslim quits islam and JOINS A RIVAL faction, then his his punishment is death or imprisonment, preferably death.

          If a jewish soldier quits the the Israeli army and joins Hezbollah, whats his punishment?

          You need to learn about anthropology and sociology, put down the homeopathy books my friend…

          • The topic, or atleast the gist of it that Ahmadis have not contributed to the intellectual advancement of the world..

            One sign of intellectual advancement is that a community, nation, people etc should feel secure in their own identities and beliefs. They should not use violence or threat of violence to keep people in. It seems that many of your leading thought leading Maulvis still believe that an apostate must be put to death. Why is that so?

        • Lutf, my son, listen up…

          Although you never answer any of my questions.. I will show you something…I am from the USA, our soldiers follow the UCMJ, the Uniformed Code of Military Justice…

          This is what it says:

          Punitive Articles of the UCMJ
          Article 85—Desertion

          3.c.:

          (c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.”

          http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm85.htm

          Don’t blame Islam for a rule that was used by almost every country/culture/organization since the beginning of time!

        • Lutf:

          Your prophet was the one who accused muslims of being violent and ignorant! It was common parlance for all religious systems and cultures to act aggressively towards deserters…

          When the europeans were killing millions of native americans, mayans and aztecs they did it based on the teachings of christianity. When the Jews entered Israel by Joshua, they looted and killed children (as per the bible), the jews were a very violent people, as were the christians!!!

          So why were the same people accusing Islam of aggressive behavior? This is what the christians were doing in British India!! Do you understand that? And they had the nerve calling us muslims as violent??? Are you serious?

          The muslims were very peaceful in contrast to the christian behavior during the crusades and the “stealing” of the americas…This is what MGA should have argued! But, since he was the enemy of allah and the slave of Yalesh, he introduced strange ideas of Jihad, he even said that it was his job to the curb the attitudes of all religous systems..what an idiot…

          Yet, the USA dropped two atom bombs over Japan, and this was in the name of retaliation…if the muslims would have behaved similarily, it would have been called Jihad…

  9. I rarely agree with Masroor, but I think he was correct in advising his followers to stay away from the internet. Masroor said this because ahmadis always get embarrased through religious discussions…

    get the picture?? If not, review the above data..

  10. Moreover at the end what matters is the quality of the work not quantity.
    Ahmaiyyat movement was not started to bring the new industrial revolution nor it was started to give the world new sceintific invention and also its purpose was never to sell the books and made a record in Guinness book .
    The purpose was to bring that faith back to the earth which went to the sky as per the prediction of the Suraa al Jumma .

    and this thing is done by My Messiah and His Caliph with utmost perfection.
    if they have write just one book and then following them i reach to the GOD , then i need not read hundered thousand books at all.
    this is what have been done by my caliph regarding the religion.

    @Rationlist and all other.
    We did not only found that GOD , but we observed his blessing coming on us due to following the way told to us by our Messiah and Caliph.
    look at the quality and not on quantity
    and look at that purpose which ahmadiyyat was supposed to achieve. and it have achieved.
    With us GOD speaks and he tells us that we shall win in number game as well.
    Dare u to try ur level best to change that destiny .

    • This whole “quality above quantity” thing that you are barking is a result of lost converts…So many people left your cult that you had to adopt a strategy to address this concern…

      Masroor’s management concept is relieving, he is basically telling ahmads that HE got rid of the FAT, instead of admitting that these conversions by Tahir Ahmad were all a lie!!

      Ghulam lied, Noorudin lied, Mahmud lied, Nasir lied, Tahir partied, and Masroor just isnt smart enough to lie…

      • Tell me rationalist is there a single thing which i can answer ?

        my point is still valid, the work of my Messiah and his caliph have enabled us to reach to the GOD in this world and we saw GOD’s blessing in this world , what else any ahmdi needs .
        what else a human needs. ?

  11. @khalid…..

    Ahmadis try to argue that the second coming of Esa (as) would not be a successful one, the reason they argue this is because of the failure of their Yaleshi religion….

    Every single hadith that was ever compiled in terms of the return of Esa (as) gives the reader the impression that when Esa (as) returns he will be successful! Especially in terms eradicating christianity and judaism. The HP (saw) spoke very strongly about this matter…he gave us a depiction of exactly what Esa (as) would accomplish..

    It is an utter shame that ahmadis discredit the return of ESA (as) just because their own religion failed so miserably…

    • GOD will send his prophet, and he will indiscriminately kill christians and jews .
      and thus successfully eradicate teh christianity .
      a dream that will never fulfill. If the prophet Essa (as) have the right to kill people due to their religion , thus creating a path for the flourishing of islam then u do not have the right to put finger on those who kill muslims .

      but neither i agree with ur this believe that Hazrat essa (as) will eradicate the christians and jews by killing them . Nor i agree with those who kill innocent Muslims like israel does .

      where do u stand ?

      • You speak of your own desires and fancies.

        Mirza worshipped the British. He wrote sickly, fawning letters of obsequiousness, unbecoming of a prophet, to the love of his life, Queen Victoria, the head of the church that he called ad-dajjal! He swore loyalty to that which he called dajjal, and he called his own god, Satan! You follow this man, we reject him.

        Prophet Muhammad (saw) warned us of impostors, you ignore him!

      • Esa (as) will return and break the cross…Muhammad (saw) accepted Jizyah because he was a peaceloving person…Esa (as) would not accept the jizyah upon his return…

        Esa (as) will break the cross, dont you think that when Christians realize that this person (ESA as) is the same person that they call GOD…dont you think that this fantastic realization will itself break christianity?

        When christians see that ESA (as) is a prophet instead of the son of god, THAT WILL BREAK THE CROSS, and thats 33% of the known planet…

  12. @ khalid..

    You totally miss the point..the point is this: if someone doesnt accept a prophet of allah, that person becomes a KAFIR, not a non-momin…

    You are trying to make MGA a prophet that doesnt fall into this category…Those type of prophets doent exist…

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