In the old version of Tadhkirah (2004 edition) there was an ilham on page 346:
God almighty has conveyed it to me that every person to whom my call is conveyed and who does not accept me is not a Muslim and is accountable to God for his defult (Letter addressed to Dr. Abdul Hakeem)(April 1906).
In the new version of the Tadhkirah this revelation does not exist!!! It seems that Masroor is at again, he has purposely re-published a new version of this book so that some controversial revelations might be suppressed.
On a side note, MGA had denied ever making this statement.
In Haqiqatul Wahy(1907) p. 178 he writes:
Dr. Abdul Hakim in his pamphlet MASIH AL-DAJJAL and other writings accuses me of having written that anyone who does not believe in me, even if he has not heard my name or is living in a country beyond the reach of my call, is an unbeliever and shall go to hell. This is a patent fabrication by the Doctor. I have never said so in any book or poster of mine. It is binding on him to produce such writings of mine in which I have said so!
MGA must have forgot what he wrote in that letter to Dr. Hakeem Khan, a year after writing the letter he totally denied it.
The first edition (of Tadhkirah) was compiled by a committee, headed by Mirza Bashir Ahmad, appointed by Khalifatul Masih II and was published in 1935 (see the preface of the current edition).
After the death of MGA his followers must have accidentally uncovered the truth. And now Masroor is trying to suppress this information.
heyy nice finding br Rationalist !
Well of course they want to bury this. After all, they cry about being kicked out of Islam, but the misdirection is quite brazen. They themselves pronounced takfeer on Muslims repeatedly, starting with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself.
Br. Fuad has provided some excellent references on the forum:
http://thecult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=496
Where are u lutf?
Where r u love 4 all?
Why are you guys so quiet all of a sudden?
And I found this on accident, I was looking for that reference for a question that i was answering. I couldnt find it in the new edition, I double-checked the old edition just to make sure that I had read this reference before. And there it was!
I wonder what else has been changed or deleted.
ahhhh, the mind of masroor…its actually pretty empty.
[admin: deleted for personal remarks]
[admin: More personal remarks removed. Any more and you will be banned. Be civilised please.]
in the new tadhkira on the page XVI it is written
“All entries in Tadhkirah that are based on personal
narrations are subject to the process of verification. In this
English translation, we have followed the Fourth Edition of
original Tadhkira”
probably u did not read it.
now see the revelation towards u pointed
“God Almighty has conveyed it to me that every
person to whom my call is conveyed and who does not accept me
is not a Muslim and is accountable to God for his default (Letter
addressed to Dr. Abdul Hakeem).”
was first written by abdul Hakeem in HIS BOOK “Al Zikrul Hakeem”
waoo , cannot we spend time to see the reference again ?
funny guys ,
that is why it is
i know very little about these revelations but the quotation you provided says letter ADDRESSED to Dr. Abdul Hakeem.
“After the death of MGA his followers must have accidentally uncovered the truth.”
Correct, and perhaps the ‘uncovered truth’ is that the original text was erroneously asserted in the first place [by humans]. For those with honest curiosity, let them note that in the full version (Urdu – 2004 edition) of Tadhkra, the original text clearly specified the source of this text – it was a writing by an opponent who had attributed it to Mirza Sahib.
Now, this is where Mirza Sahib’s own refutation of this point would comes in handy – as you have quoted above from Haqiqatul Wahy that: “Dr. Abdul Hakim … accuses me of having written that anyone who does not believe in me, … is an unbeliever and shall go to hell. This is a patent fabrication by the Doctor. I have never said so in any book or poster of mine. It is binding on him to produce such writings of mine in which I have said so!”
Dr. Hakim Khan, or any one else for that matter, never provided such proof.
Would you care to know who was Abdul Hakim Khan? He was an apostate from Ahmadiyyat; and apostates of Ahmadiyyat seem to be leaders in attributing extraordinary lies to Ahmadiyyat. I believe it is done because they think of themselves as better able to sell it by being past ‘insiders.’
As we know from experience, there are times when falsehood does end up hidden among truth and God guides its extraction out back into the pile of falsehood.
In the case of people who leave Ahmadiyyat we can easily notice the phenomenon. Those who found themselves among the ‘wrong’ crowd and God helpes them get back to where they needed to be.
Love 4 all.
Do you even have a brain that works? This was a letter that was addressed to Abdul hakim Khan, not the opposite!
MGA wrote a letter to abdul hakim khan in which he wrote:
God almighty has conveyed it to me that every person to whom my call is conveyed and who does not accept me is not a Muslim and is accountable to God for his defult (Letter addressed to Dr. Abdul Hakeem)(April 1906).
Check every tadhkirah ever published by your company, i.e. ahmadiyyat, since 1935, it exists in every single one. The internet has exposed your religion, now this ilham needed to disappear. In 2009, a commitee met with Masroor, Masroor said to get rid of this ilham.
And trust me buddy, i know the whole story of Abdul hakim Khan.
The original team that put together the tadhkirah, they were :
“Mirza Bashir Ahmadra, appointed by Hadrat Khalifatul Masih IIra and was published in 1935. The second edition was prepared under the leadership of Hadrat Maulana Jalal-ud-Din
Shamsra and was published in 1956. The third edition was
prepared by Maulana Abdul Latif Bahawalpuri and was
published in 1969. The fourth edition was prepared under
the leadership of Syed Abdul Hayee and was published in
2004″–(see preface of tadhkirah, from alislam.org)
These high ranking people found the letter by MGA which was addressed to Abdul Hakeem Khan. The sons of MGA signed off on the authenticity of this ilham. Now Masroor Ahmad has decided that this ilham needs to disappear.
How did your brain miss all of these factual points?
Rationalist!
Wrong; and, please learn to read carefully and judge honestly…
That was the letter Abdul Hakim Khan CLAIMED that Mirza Sahib wrote. (I provided you reference to the 2004 full version where the reference is given in full detail.)
That is why Mirza Sahib refuted Khan’s claim and challenged him to produce the original letter mentioned against Mirza Sahib. Since you claim to know the full story of Abdul Hakim Khan, you would also know that apostate never did produced or printed the alleged letter or produced any other proof.
If you have seen, as you claim, all the editions of Tadhkara since 1935, let me challenge you to provide a proof as well – by writing the full reference as provided in the full Urdu version – in as recent as 2004 edition. If you don’t know Urdu, please employ some help because a judgment about your honesty now depends on it. If you will not provide the full reference, obviously, I will.
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IUJ thats wrong coz even mirza Mahmud wrote this statement in his book truth about split(page 147 pdf 161) he wrote:
“Promised Messiahas to show that he regarded his
deniers as kuffar. Some of the passages, quoted in the
article, are reproduced here in brief: To the apostate
Abdul Hakim of Patiala, he wrote: “At any rate, when
the great God has revealed to me that every body
whom my Call has reached and who has failed to
accept my claim, is not a Muslim, and is liable to
account before God, how can I at the instance of one
individual, whose heart is steeped in a thousand
darknesses, ignore the command of God. It is easier to
cut off such a one from my Community. Accordingly
from this date I hereby exclude you from the
Community of my followers.”
so now what answer you gona give?
Mirza implicitly admits and affirms the letter to Abdul Hakim Khan in 1907:
(Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol.22 p.167)
I think you’ll find that’s game, set and match to Islam.
I have only read the english version of Tadhkirah from 2004 and 2009, I have never even seen a tadhkirah in any other language in my entire life.
In the english version of Tadhkirah (2004) it is written clearly that this was a letter that was addressed to Abdul Hakim Khan.
Shahid, can u post the screen caps from the forum here? I dont know how to do that.
Love 4 all, have u went mad? You should have remained silent like Lutf and the other qadianis who post here.
I know more about ahmadiyyat than you can imagine. Your gonna hate me if you dont already feel like that.
Rationalist:
Wow: in the first sentence you claim never having seen a Tadhkara in any language other than English. Immediately in the second sentence you point to its location and summon Shahid for help. Obviously you had seen them.
Who do think should have maintained the silence?
Anyway, If Shahid can post the full reference, that will be nice.
And, mad! me? nooooo – I just proved you wrong from your own two sentences.
It is not me who will hate you.. I am afraid It will be the other way around… But you already do that… its very apparent from the terminology you use in the forum.
Dear masroor:
My name is rationalist and I had been researching an ilham that was very troubling to the ahmadiyya super-structure in terms of the status of the deniers of MGA. In 2005 I had read an ilham in which MGA called all muslims kafirs, I wanted to research it further but I was sidetracked by college work. Recently, I decided to finish my study on this particular ilham and I noticed that in the 2009 edition of tadhkirah this ilham was totally missing. I searched from 1905 to 1907 and I could not find it.
1. Why did you delete this?
2. What other ilhams have been deleted since 1935?
3. Where are these diaries of MGA that many quotes come from?
4. Will these diaries ever be available to read?
My goodness Shahid:
Once again, you are attributing statements by other to be the words of Mirza Sahib.
If you were to look closely, that is the questioner talking.
You’ve lost the plot, right?
Zia: Well, I am glad you asked. So I will clear it once for all.
The fact is that irrespective of who else may have relied in this alleged ‘revelation’, the inaccuracy of the source reference to the ‘revelation’ speaks for itself.
The point here is that once the inaccuracy of the source is discovered, and it is supported by other claims by Mirza Sahib, other other points fall by wayside.
As to what Mirza Mahmud Sahib wrote, is no defense for anyone. Remember that Mirza Mahmud Sahib was also looking at the same material where the reference was made to Abdul Hakim Khan’s bogus writing by a questioner, not Mirza Sahib himself.
It is ironic that everyone is trying to prove that it was a genuine revelation and why it is being considered questionable…
Nobody thinks Mirza had revelations from anything other than Yalash.
What is revealing are your antics in trying to distance your community and yourself from the takfeer of Mirza and his sons. Why do you deny your own prophet? What a joke your religion is and how mendacious your manner.
So Mirza Mahmud was wrong and he just quotted it without even looking at it :S
he is suppose to be guided khalifah
and the reference that Bro Shahid quoted does Mirza Ghulam said that no I didnt say that? infact he explained it futher
I can not believe how deluded Ahmadis are… it is actually quite shocking and reaffirms the mentality of cult followers. Poor people, may Allah (SWT) guide them back to Islam, inshaAllah.
They tried to hide this revelation but they even failed at that. The revelation is still available in the fourth volume of The Essence of Islam. This volume was published in 2006. The Essence of Islam is a lot less popular than Tadhkirah so the editors may have ignored it or maybe they completely forgot about it. All of the English videos on this site give references to Tadhkirah so I guess they assumed it would be sufficient to meddle with Tadhkirah alone.
This is the video where I got it from. The translation is a little different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsfq3pFYzAc
^ Yea, I noticed that too, It’s only a matter of time they get rid of it from there too…
I’m just connecting the dots here,
1. In 1935 this reference was found and published in Al-Fazl.
2. In 1935 Tadhkirah was created
It seems highly authentic. Love 4 all should have just kept his mouth shut like Lutf and Mushtaq Malik.
Someone should find the original Al Fazl of 1935 where this was published, there could possibly be some other info that could help us nail MGA on this issue.
It’s Al fadl , Vol. 22, No. 85, 15 March 1935, p. 8
@rat ionalist
looks like you learned urdu in a jiffy, and also had the full version of the tadhkara handy, that you had claimed you had never seen, and you wanna start connecting the dots now…
pal, that you should have done before you started talking. it is too late for you to start looking for al fazl now, just as it was too late to summon shahid’s help for posting the full reference from tadhkara i challenged you with.
once again, can you pretty please post the full reference as stated in the tadhkara.
What I find galling is that Ahmadiyya Internet Warriors like Lutf go off to the Telegraph moaning about Muslim figures making takfeer on the cult of Mirzology, whilst throughout their short history, Ahmadiyya’s leaders, from their founder onwards, have constantly declared the Ummah of Muhammad (saw) to be outside the fold of Islam.
It’s easy to see why they’d delete their prophet’s embarrassing faux pas, except that the more they try to cover their tracks, the more they expose themselves as a cult. Who can take such takfeerist cultees seriously?
Shahid, I have been following this topic for a couple of days. It is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. Haqiqatul Wahi is not a book containing one paragraph. There is plenty of material to clarify the issue of Islam and not Islam on alislam.org.
Tadhkira is not a book by Promised Messiah (as), but only a compilation of revelations. As mentioned by khalid nawaz, there are different editions in circulation and besides, you can always refer back to the source material to start arguing about the real issue. This accusation leveled in the main article above is again, a half-baked theory and nothing more.
The book Truth Prevails quotes this from Haqiqatul Wahy.
On page 179 of Haqiqatul Wahyi, the Promised Messiah has placed the word “kafir ” against “momin”, and stated that kufr is of two kinds:
“One kind of kufr is that a man does not at all believe in Islam, and he does not accept the Holy Prophet Mohammad as an Apostle of God.”
“The second kind of kufr is, for instance, that he does not believe in the Promised Messiah… Even after the whole case has been fully and duly put before him, he declines to believe in one, whose truth has been supported by the Holy Prophet, with great emphasis and insistence, and whose truth, moreover, is found to have been confirmed by the Scriptures of the earlier Prophets: Therefore, since he rejects the decision of the Apostle of God, and of Allah Himself, he becomes a kafir . When you look deeply at this question, the two kinds of kufr are found to be one and the same thing. There is really no room for doubt that in the eyes of the Lord, where the case has been fully and duly put before, a kafir of the first or the second kind, on the Day of the Qiyama, he will be held culpable. And. where, in the eyes of the Lord, the case has not yet come to be duly and fully stated, and the man is a mokazzib, or munkir, though the Sharia, based as it is on the exterior, also would pronounce that he is a kafir ; and we too shall hold he is a kafir . But in the eyes of the Lord, under His law that He does not burden anyone beyond capacity, the man in question will not be held culpable. All the same, it would not be for us to issue a decree for his release and salvation. His would be a matter strictly between himself and his Maker, wherein we have no standing, whatsoever.” (Haqiqatul Wahyi, pages 179-180)
As for “Allamah” Tahirul Qadri’s fatwa-bazi, many of your salafi/deobandi friends already consider the poor guy as kafir, innovator and a fraud..
The book truth prevails has your answer.
LOL – what utter rubbish! It took you a few days to come up with that? Are you really the “best” English hasbara agent that the Ahmadiyya cult has? Is that it?
Tell me, If someone rejected Rasulullah (saw), but said “I believe in all the prophets before”, would you say they were Muslims? As brother rationalist says, was Mirza the first “rejectable” prophet? What risible nonsense.
Let our point is that:
Your jammat is now trying to hide and distort they fact
and they changing the book and trying to hide the stuff is clear proof of their intentions and falsehood
MGA has a habit of complicating a matter. He should have given a simple YES or NO answer.
MGA’s writings display an inclination of lawyer-type behavior. When a lawyer is pinned into a corner, instead of answering a question straight-forward they complicate the matter and give an answer that is hard to comprehend, as is the case above!
MGA answered that his deniers will have to answer to Allah. What does that mean? Why the ambiguity? Why is he not answering straight-forward?
MGA worked as a clerk in a courthouse in sialkot(1950″s), he went to court for his dad and argued to get land grants returned to his family(1960′s), he was a second rate lawyer who didnt pass his BAR examination…then he created a LIE about islam and got rich off of it, his sons and grandsons were able to reap the rewards….
the rest is history…….
@rationlist
whether it is alfazal of 1935 or 1938 the truth will remain that the said Letter first appeared in teh book fo teh abdul hakeem book
and as the new addition categorically says that
““All entries in Tadhkirah that are based on personal
narrations are subject to the process of verification. In this
English translation, we have followed the Fourth Edition of
original Tadhkira”
this was the personnel narration of the Abdul hakkim , so it is put “PROBABLY “out of the new tadkira
now where as the dealing of the KUFFAIR and MULSIM is concerned go back and first answer those question which i put in this blog on the allegation of FARHAN over ahmadies calling other KAFFIR..
i need nto repeat them here.
again , the Tadkira is the publication of the revelation of the hazrat Messiah maood (as) and this revelation source is none other then the stanch opponent of the hazrat Messiah Maood (as).
and it is said categorically that in this new addition of the tadkhira those entries which are the personnel narration have been omitted .
They will be called people of the book. Prophet Ibraheem (as) was also a muslim.
Promised Messiah (as) can not be rejected like other prophets of Allah. People are free to choose, and call their faith whatever they like. As God is the best judge.
Luft the topic is not about rejecting or not rejecting but its about hiding the facts and claims by your jammat
do you agree with these actions of ur jammat?
As I mentioned befor, Tadhkira is a reference book which has gone through many changes in the past. As far as I know, a significant portion was added in 1950s. So there are numerous versions in circulation and no one minds as the book is only a collection of what is already present in Roohani Khazain.
Jamaat is not hiding anything from anyone.. You can see the original books for Promised Messiah (as) and find these references there.
Lutf: Have you lost mind your mind?
You wrote:
Promised Messiah (as) can not be rejected like other prophets of Allah. People are free to choose, and call their faith whatever they like. As God is the best judge.
^is that a typo? Did you mean CAN BE instead of can not be?
Allah tells us in the Quran that we must obey all prophets/messengers that have been sent by Allah.
I have an article in the works which exposes this position of your business/religion. Is MGA the only prophet that muslims CAN reject yet remain as muslims? Thats what Mahmud said in 1954!
Thats the most ridiculous realization of ahmadiyyat. This article will embarass all ahmadis.
Also, what other ilhams were deleted in the new version? You mentioned that ilham have been added, were any deleted in the past? If so which ones?
You are gonna force me to check the entire new version of tadhkiran against the 2004 version. I dont want to do it, but i am gonna be forced to do it just to prove a point.
Why didnt the editors provide a list of deletions vs. additions?
Just give up son, you guys lost on this one!
You have a right to identify yourselves as a muslim despite the fact that you reject Promised Messiah (as). It is because you believe in Quran, the final scripture. And anyone following the Quran is a muslim no matter how deficient their undersanding.
Now, please answer me this..
What will be the status of those muslims who reject Imam Mahdi (who will appear in Mecca to rule the Arabs) and Jesus (as) (who will descend in Damascus)?
hint…You may wish to escape this question by rejecting the Ahadith.
Look how he wriggles out of a tough spot.
Go back to Mirza please, and the fact that your movement disingenuously removes or modifies references from Tadhkirah, your holy compilation of Mirza’s wahi on the basis of a few YouTube videos and some web sites done by a few nobodies in their spare time. Big bad cult gets scared by a few Muslims with broadband, changes its theology. There’s a big, big sign for thinking Ahmadis considering reversion right there. You see, we don’t change the Qur’an when our opponents make some videos on the Internet.
Tadhkirah is a compilation of your prophet’s wahi, why alter it? Isn’t that sacrilege?
In this case, you don’t like your movement getting caught with its takfeerist pants around its ankles, so you’ll change your prophet’s wahi collection to suit. You just can’t have it both ways. You moan to the world about your rights to call yourselves Muslims, while casting us outside the fold of Islam. And none of your absurd contortions alter the fact that Mirza and his progeny have continually cast us outside the fold of Islam.
The only reason your cult exists is because you are enmeshed in the unsavoury business of takfeer. Without this business, without taking Islam and turning it into a cult and the rejecting the very Muslims that Mirza himself was before he started his business of takfeer, you would be one of us.
There’s still time. Leave this indefensible cult. Come back to Islam.
^I have already answered this question time and time again.
Lutf, i am sure that you have read my ideas on this!
From what I can gather from the mutwatir (authentic) hadith reports, the coming messiah will not be rejected by muslims, there is not even one report that gives off this impression. The impression from hadith reports is that the messiah and mahdi will lead Islam to the summitt of human evolution. The grave for Esa Ibn Maryam has been reserved since the time of Umar. You should go to arabia and look at the area around the grave of the prophet, notice that there is a plot resevered for someone. I”ll give you a hint! ESA!!!!!
When the messiah comes, all other religions would be abolished, Islam would prevail. Ahmadiyya theology discredits mutawatir hadith reports. Only allah can save them.
If you ask a hypothetical and rhetoric question that what would happen if the muslims reject this messiah, I can’t answer that because its not possible.
Let me turn the tables, what would have happened if the the world would have rejected Muhammad (saw)?
Can u dig it?
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Lutf and other slaves of Qadiani cult,
FREE YOUR MIND…READ THIS.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Truth-about-the-Split.pdf
“Truth about split” page 56-57
Quote
“I propagated the belief that Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was actually a Nabi; (2) the belief that he was ‘the Ahmad’ spoken
of in the prophecy of Jesusas referred to in the Holy Quran in Al-Saff 61:7; and (3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiahas.
That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit. What I deny is the statement that I have been entertaining these views since 1914 or only three or four years before. On the contrary, as I shall presently show, the first and the last of these beliefs were entertained by me even during the lifetime of the
Promised Messiahas”
Unquote
2:18 Deaf, dumb, blind – and they cannot turn back
@Pleezing
look at this sermon . it have the answer of ur allegation
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7489/page1i.jpg
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9752/page2m.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3145/page3lh.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9540/page4nu.jpg
[b]“there is lot of difference in the definition of the KUFFIR between ahmadies and non ahmadies they consider the meaning of KAFFIR as the denial of islam , but we do not give this meaning to word kafir.”[/b]
“We believe that after a certain limit a man get a right of being called as MUSLIM ,but when he degrade even from that limit , though he can be called a Muslim but he cannot be considered a TRUE MUSLIM . this is our definition of KUFFER and ISLAM.”
Further he (rz) said .
“According to this definition we do not say every KAFFIR will go to the hell for eternity. We do not call in this sense even Jews and Christians as KAFFIR we believe one day GOD will free them from hell and will enter them in the paradise. ”
[b]“there is lot of difference between their and out definition of KUFFIR ”[/b]
he (rz) then said
“again I pronounce we do not give KUFFIR that meaning which they (other Muslims ) give. According to us ,the term KUFFIR is applicable after a certain limit. When a person consider ISLAM as his religion and quranic commands as his manual of action , he gets the right of being called as the MUSLIM but in TRUE SENSE he becomes MUSLISM when he acts on the Islamic teachings, but when he denies of some fundamental of islam then HE IS CALLED A MULSLIM but in TRUE SENSE he does not remain a Muslim ”
[b]“we do not consider KAFFIR is the one who rejects Hazrat MUHAMMAD (saw) as a prophet – when some one say that I believe in hazrat Muhammad (saw) then who else can say that you do not believe in hazrat Muhamamd (saw)… in our opinion denying of some fundamental of islam is KUFFIR and such a person cannot be a TRUE MUSLIM ”
“if that definition of KUFFIR is used which these Muslims do , then , according to that definition , in our opinion , there is no KAFFIR in Christians , Hindus , Jews, and other non muslims ”
Above is taken from the sermon of hazrat mirza basher ul deen (rz).
http://alislam.org/urdu/khm/KM16-17.pdf
above sermon is clearly telling us that according the hazrat Musleah Maood ‘s (rz) a person will remain Muslim . however, he does not remains a true Muslim . Denial of hazrat messiah Maood (as) makes the musilm a kaffir in that sense and not in the sense of non Muslim .
a person becomes a NON MUSILIM only when he says that I am leaving the islam , until he calls himself a muslims no one has the right to make him non muslim.
Complete BS and yet more contradictions by Mirzai K2. Read the scans that you posted, specialy the last one, there he (la) says that someone cannot be called kafir because he might have reamined UNAWARE all his life………
And in ‘truth about split’ he calls everyone kafir and OUTSIDE PALE OF ISLAM….even those who never heard the name of Mirza…..
How can you and your BLIND fellow Qadini fails to see OUTSIDE PALE OF ISLAM…? How can you remain Muslim when you are outside pale of Islam,…LOLOLO
I tell you how, you bvecome QADIANI……
“2:18 Deaf, dumb, blind – and they cannot turn back”
@Pleeezing
“2:18 Deaf, dumb, blind – and they cannot turn back”
Correct – and how the titles fit you so well:
Deaf: because you did not hear what Lutf said; It went right over your head; [Litf asked: "Now, please answer me this.. What will be the status of those muslims who reject Imam Mahdi (who will appear in Mecca to rule the Arabs) and Jesus (as) (who will descend in Damascus)? - hint…You may wish to escape this question by rejecting the Ahadith."]
Dumb: because the quote you presented from ‘The Split” is where Mirza Mahmood Sahib is explaining about what is being said about him by Maulana Muhammad Ali of ALM; [if not dumb, you should except that it was a dishonest attempt on your part]
Blind: Do you not see that Mirza Mahmud Sahib answered these allegations in the pages thereafter?;
You can not turn back: In your deafness, dumbness, and blindness, you went right-on by where truth sat.
My guess is, you wouldn’t know truth and honesty, even if hit you in the face…
LOA QADIANI:
YOU ASKED:
What will be the status of those muslims who reject Imam Mahdi (who will appear in Mecca to rule the Arabs) and Jesus (as) (who will descend in Damascus)?
When Imam Mahi comes, then Muslims will have to accept him. Do you believe in te Ahadith you mentioned? If yes, then Ahadith talk about two personalities…..
Prove Mirza a trutful and honest man before you accept him massiah or awtar or Krishnan, or mahdi or ……… Show us he is a decent human being ….not the one who runs after a MARRIED girl all his life….Truth hurts, but this is truth which fail to SEE OR HEAR though you have eyes and ears..
You said
Dumb: because the quote you presented from ‘The Split” is where Mirza Mahmood Sahib is explaining about what is being said about him by Maulana Muhammad Ali of ALM; [if not dumb, you should except that it was a dishonest attempt on your part]
LOL you are cannot read what is in front of you…. Mirza bashir is not denying what Molvi m Ali said, He acknowledges and confirms his beliefs on authority of Mirza qadiani….LOLOL WHAT an IDIOT defender of qadian…LOLO
TRUTH ABOUT SPLIT IS WRITTEN BY MIRZA MAHMOOD K2. Please check the qadiani website to read in English or Urdu…
And then you fail to include the discussion on what the “pale of Islam” is in this context…
It’s precisely these kind of vague contortions and misleading fog that marks you out as the most disingenuous of cults at the periphery of Islam.
Mahmud Ahmad gave a YES answer from 1911 to 1922, after that he appears to have complicated the matter. He has adopted MGA’s style of writing, which is “vague-ness”…..
All of a sudden he back-peddled…the back-peddling was complete in 1954.
In 1901, when MGA wrote his correction of an error pamphlet, instead of giving a simple yes or no answer he complicated the matter and left everybody confused…even his own followers….Mahmud has used the same writing style.
My question remains unanswered for over 2 months now! Maybe Lutf can step to the plate???
1. What were the LAM and the qadianis arguing about from 1911 to 1922 (at least)in terms of of the deniers of MGA?
2. Why did Muhammad Ali write 7 books on a topic (the status of the deniers of MGA) that the qadianis later claimed (see nazeer’s book) that they held the same belief as the LAM on?
misleading fog? Intersting use of the phrase.. considering that all of your “references” omit the context and background information without fail.
Yes Lutf, for you your religion is not about the message, but about contextualisation that leaves people bewildered and lost. The Ahmadiyya religion reminds me of Neil Bohr’s famous quote. To paraphrase: For those who are not shocked when they come across Ahmadiyya theology, cannot possibly have understood it.
It is a sign of your utter failure that despite my constant reproduction of accurate references, you stoop to question them, and when you fail in justifying the “logic” of Mirza utterly, you seek refuge in attacking context. Go ahead, contextualise all you want, it makes no difference, it just creates a fog of confusion, and that is what your job is – to create confusion and doubt.
Leave this indefensible nonsense Lutf. You’re wasting your life and your undoubted intellect. Come join us! The ummah has much work to do, join us and give up the fog of confusion and the defence of delusion.
@Shahid:
“these kind of vague contortions”
Of course it is vague to you. It requires at least an average understanding of the Holy Quran and Islam.
@Pleeezing:
“LOLOL WHAT an IDIOT defender of qadian…LOLO”
I need not say more about the level of class in debateability here…
BTW – we know exactly where you get this style . It comes from the people whom [shahid says] we Ahmadi Muslims label as boogie men. But you guys say they are ‘Ulema of Islam’.
I recently saw one such ‘alim’ [Shahid didn't like Lutf messing with this 'alim's' reputation] having his followers prostrate before him by placing their heads in there feet. I have seen him in weirder situations before.
In conclusion, all the points needed to be made in response to your major ‘find of the century’ from Tadhkara have been made by Lutf, myself, and Khalid Nawaz and you folks are left with lines and statements I just mentioned above.
People aught to get a better sense of debating and learn to concede the points when lost and push on the points one might win.
This debate has now been reduced down to one lines.
What you have reduced this to is ad hominem attacks. Mirza used takfeer. Proven by his books, by his sons’ books and by Mirza Nasir and by you and your friends. Mirza Masroor recently said in one of his sermons what Lutf said to me a while ago, that Muslims are following a dead and Satanic religion.
So why are you running from this essential point? You are takfeerists, but like thieves shouting “thief” in the marketplace, you use this label for other Muslims.
Shahid, the phrase “dead and satanic religion” also has a conext.
LOL. Do try and explain that to your Creator, see how far that gets you.
Now that is the first sensible thing you have said in years.. God knows best.
@ILU
What kind of debate can we engage in with you. You don’t want to see what is clearly written by your Mirza and his sons. You, in your heart, know that there is no choice but to deny, twist or plain lie about what your gurus have written.
When Mirza says ” anyoone who does mot believe in me is NOT MUSLIM”, why don’t you believe what he says? All the time you refer to Muslim umma as ‘ so called Muslims’… why hypocricy? Why you deny that you don’t consider Muslims as KAFIR?
On Mahdi and Massiah, do you believe in all ahadith about mahdi? If you do, you should know that Mahdi and Essa a.s. are two separate personalities according to Ahadith… Remember the hadith where Hz Essa a.s. will offer Mahdi to lead the prayers….
You believe in what Mirza says…right? Mirza says all ahadith about mahdi are unreliable and must be discared specially hadith that syas no Mahhi except Essa… Rk7, Hamamtal Bushra (http://www.alislam.org/urdu/rk/rk-7-21.pdf ) page 314-315)
You are blind followers who do not read whjat Mirza has written. Either you don’t know URDU and Arabic or you are too afraid to read those book beause that will expose Qadiani Myth.
We Muslims believe in Ahadith and when it comes to Ahadith about Essa a.s. or Imam Mahdi,… we believe that those are two personalities AS PER AHADITH. Ibn -e- Maryam ( Essa a.s.) is to come as per ahadith, in Damascus. This alone should be enough to prove Mirza LIAR. Mirza is Ibn Chragh bibi and he was born in Qadian….
Why I could not take you seriously because Qadianis fail or pretend not to see a clear, unimbigious statement by Mirza and then give their own meaning to that. e.g. Mirza said anyone who does not believe in him is not Muslim… you say he did not say that or talked about Dr A Hakim… READ what Mirza wrote…
Miirza bashir k2 said, anyoine who has not even heard of Mirza id kafir and outside PALE OF ISLAM… You don’t want to accept that..
Mirza said that a virgin and a widow will come to my Nikah…no widow came to his Nikah despite his mpowewrful prophecies…Mirza bashir MA said, amma jan came as virgin and became a widow after Mirza died….. GO FIGURE !!!
[Note from admin: warning on 2 counts. First, don't mock user names please, second, no threats, implicit or explicit. Due to several threats from the Ahmadiyya's agents already, we have to take any threats to our members, explicit or implicit, personal or otherwise, very seriously. You are fortunate to have the right to free speech here, a right that you should not abuse, and that you do not officially offer us. The second you did, your creed would be finished, so please, a bit more decorum here, ok? Eh twada khalaji da kar nain haga, samaj ayee?]
@Peeling
First, I will just quote myself:
“—all the points needed to be made in response to your major ‘find of the century’ from Tadhkara have been made by Lutf, myself, and Khalid Nawaz and you folks are left with lines and statements I just mentioned above.”
The gripe in this original article was why information was redacted from a newer edition of a book vis-à-vis the old. Now you know the reason from my perspective, [ and from Lutf and Khalid Nawaz] however you are free to believe in whatever you like to believe.
However, If you want to discuss ‘takfeer’, first learn to write, and then ask Shahid to allow you to post your articles on his blog.
But, I know one thing for sure; In my view a writer like you can easily leave the blogmaster in a vulnerable position because of the habit of making libel statements. I know people at BlueHost don’t kid-around.
But if Shahid allows you leeway, more power to you…
As to your statement:
“We Muslims believe in Ahadith and when it comes to Ahadith about Essa a.s. or Imam Mahdi,… we believe that those are two personalities AS PER AHADITH. Ibn -e- Maryam ( Essa a.s.) is to come as per ahadith, in Damascus. This alone should be enough to prove Mirza LIAR. Mirza is Ibn Chragh bibi and he was born in Qadian….”
You can continue to maintain this beleif until the cows come home or the dooms day appears, which ever occurs first. The following is what I believe will happen, that was stated already 100 years [I repeat already a 100 years] ago:
“Remember very well that no one shall ever come down from heaven. All our opponents who are alive today shall die and none from them shall ever see Jesus son of Mary coming down from heaven; then their children that are left after them shall also die and none from among them shall ever see Jesus son of Mary coming down from heaven and then their third generation shall also die and they too shall not see the son of Mary coming down. Then God shall cause great consternation in their minds and they shall then say that even the age of the domination of the cross has passed away and the way of life has changed completely, yet the son of Mary has not come down. Then in dismay the wise among them shall forsake this belief and three centuries from now shall not have passed when those who await the coming of Jesus son of Mary, whether they be Muslims or Christians, shall relinquish altogether this conception.”
[Note from admin: Given that you say it was a typo, we'll let that one slide. As to the implied threat, we refer to your sinister reference to the hosting company. It's unwarranted. Your constant references to Shahid and others in a personal capacity when not related to comments directly are also inappropriate. Only the Ahmadiyya goes down the "Chilling Effect" route of threats, DMCA warrants and abuse. Obviously, nobody has a clue who you are, so how could you be libelled anyway? I think you'll find that living as you do in the land of free speech, but also the land of Naseem Rehmatullah, in whose name spurious DMCA challenges are made, you should be careful about thinly veiled threats to shut down free speech of ordinary people. Anyone might think you're a dangerous cult like $cientology. And you wouldn't want that, would you?]
You posted warning on two counts: first the name: i see what you mean about the name.. that was typo, like many other on the post.
But more seriously, where is the threat that you are eluding to….?
Can you point to it please….
my good God!
Shahid! I do not know the story about the DMCA business, however, truth must be told; If it was enforced or you allowed it to be enforced, it only follows that something must have been to it. I know, this is not a forum to discuss that – but you brought it up.
Shahid, I have a theory: There is a reason for you to go down this ‘takfeer’ road. You see, this issue, you think, is your answer to my being In ‘the land of free speech’ and your inability to control my calling myself a Muslim. That is – because here I am able to call my self a Muslim and you or no one else can stop it and now your hope is, perhaps, you can turn the argument of you calling Ahmadi Muslims as ‘non-Muslims’ by saying that ‘oh we call you non-Muslim because we are being called non-Muslims by you. The proof is that this argument is not the prevailing methodology used outside of the ‘lands of ‘free speech”.
Therefore, with your reference to my ‘being in the land of free speech’, I agree, I do enjoy the benefit that some rather not see Ahmadi Muslims enjoy in the land of free speech.
I know some people are upset when Ahmadi Muslims are able to resist back, unlike places where people are used to seeing Ahmadi Muslims murdered and maimed, left homeless, or sent to jails without any recourse, not even an expectation of slightest of protection – as with the help of a DMCA warrant. So I don’t blame anyone for their frustration, when a DMCA warrant stops them cold.
I made the comment only because I do live in the land of free speech, but I also know it comes with the responsibility of not making libelous statements against anyone, known or unknown, individuals or groups. But, I am only looking at what sort of writing style and the language is used by some of the ‘curse-happy’ writers.
love4all – the person who dare not speak their name (and here I must credit Lutf, who unlike so many Mirzais who abuse and threaten me and other Muslims from the safety of an anonymous ID) – when writing to the admin (there is a team) please don’t address a single one by name. In future, such posts will be deleted. However, in this case, it was me, and despite your crying post being so off-topic and propaganda-laden, I will address some of the points. If you want to discuss this further, take it to the forum.
Your theory is baseless and ridiculous. My stance has been pretty clear for the last year or so, I do not engage in individual takfeer, even when the likes of Lutf and your cohorts call Islam a dead and Satanic religion when it doesn’t include belief in the fake prophethood of the impostor and fraud Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
As for the prevailing methodology withni the lands of “free speech”, which protects any group that attacks Muslims (like the cult of Mirzology), but demonises those who are Muslims, well, you are free to spread your hate speech about Muslims, just as Geert Wilders is. You are free to invite monsters, terrorists and war criminals like Shimon Peres as an honoured guest to your iftars in your protected outpost in occupied Palestine. You are free to congratulate extremists like Andrew Brons, BNP MEP on their election. You are free to issue press releases when an apparent Muslim is suspected of committing a single act that most Muslims won’t, but to remain tight-lipped when Muslims are murdered in their millions. So enjoy that right, because I find it works quite well because it makes it transparently clear that you are not on the side of Muslims, rather, you are our enemies.
If you saw my interview on Iqra, you will know my opinion on persecution. I am completely against it. It’s senseless. Here’s a question though: If your choice in such countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh is between breaking the law by practising your religion and leaving, why do you not leave, like Mirza Tahir and Mirza Masroor did? Move to India perhaps? Or elsewhere? After all, if you sincerely believe in Allah (SWT), that is what you should do rather than compromise your religion.
As for the DMCA claim (it’s not a warrant, if you’re going to use big words like “libel” when you use a pen-name, it’s no surprise you know nothing about DMCA), well, that was a simple case of Mirzais foolishly trying to have videos removed that contained quoted portions of Mirzai text. The counter-claim was successful, and the option of taking Ahmadiyya to court for filing a malicious claim against somebody using their texts under “Fair Use” remains on the table. Amazing that you didn’t want your texts quoted. Staggering that you’re so naive that you used a bludgeon as heavy and thought-stopping as the DMCA to suppress free speech in the land of the free. I don’t see you making such absurd claims against Geert Wilders when he uses quotes from the Qur’an, but then you probably support the likes of him as he serves your purposes.
Finally, the language and style that some people use is their responsibility. When it is used by people who use pen-names, against those with pen-names, I wouldn’t bet my house on it constituting libel. And if you do go ahead with any kind of libel claim, then of course, I will re-visit the malicious DMCA claim, and Nasim Rehmatullah and his boss Masroor will want to know who you are and why you got them into such a mess. Free speech doesn’t mean going around threatening people with law suits every time they say something you don’t like. None of the team behind thecult.info will allow hate speech, from either side, and we have frequently spoken up against it. I would suggest you get your own house in order first though and look at some of these:
http://www.thecult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=409
http://thecult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34&start=10
This is the style of many of you Mirzais, this is your “free speech”. So do me a favour, behave like an adult and stop acting like a cult bully.
I won’t allow a response to this message, but if you want to pick this up on the forum, whatever your name is, oh-so-protected-and-safe-one, then please feel free to pick it up there.
Pleezing, you have a network of allegations carefully placed in your posts so that if one is answered, you can latch on to the second one and if two are answered, you can escape with the third one.
Just tell us the status of those “muslims” who will reject Imam Mahdi (of Arabia), who will appear before the descent of Jesus (Israelite)? I need to know the status of those people.. Muslim, Kafir, Non-Muslim, Animal, Plant etc etc.
@LFA and LUTF
Look at your post, read it again. Could you refute any point I raised except attacking me or threatening me LOLO. Why don’t you gather some courage and suggest a live debate on MTA between Masroor and his blind mullas with other Muslims?
In the UK. Other TV channels have started doing that, why your leadership is so coward and not doing that? What are you scared of?? gettinmg exposed I guess.
Peeling…. surely I am peeling off the coat of hypocricy from Qadianis’ and showing their true colors.
You are insisting on my opinion about those who reject Essa a.s. or Mahdi. I don’t know what will be status of those who reject the ahadith about Essa a.s. or Mahdi. I am not scholor but I know that its a majority belief and as a Muslim I cannot go against that.
If you are implying that Muslims are KAFIR caz they reject mahdi and masih moud ( Mirza) then gather some courge and say so….Why are you so hypocritical? mirza did call all umma non Muslim….period.
Now question is whether Mirza is Mahdi and Masih Moud or not? I have shown you Mirza’s statement that he says all hadith about Mahdi are weak, unrelaible and should be rejected including Ibn maja hadith… Why are you so helpless and avoiding answering about ahadith on mahdi? When you reject those ahadith about mahdi, WHAT IS SOURCE OF MIRZA’S CLAIM OF MAHDI? If Mirza took a U turn like in almost every claim, then mahdi ahadith talk about TWO separate people. One Essa a.s. and other Mahdi….Does it not strike you that Mirza is cought red handed lying again….how can Mirza be Madi if he claims to be Masih moud?
Other Ahadith about Essa a.s. are referring to him as Essa ibn Maryam and there is a detailed description to that. Mirza is ghulam qadiani ibn chragh bb… Mirza was born in Qadian, Essa.a.s. will be coming in Damascas…Essa a.s. will rule and Mirza was appearing in local courts…( writing to Queen Victoria that I am proud to obedient servent of your officers in India LOLO)
AS YOU BELEIVE ESSA A.S. IS NOT GOING O COME, THEN WHAT IS THE SOURCE OF MIRZA’S CLAIM OF MASIH MOUD IF NOT AHADITH (caz they talk of Essa ibn Maryam)? DOES QURAN TALK ABOUT MASIH MOUD? SHOW US THAT WHILE ANSWERING THE SOURCE OF MIRZA’S CLAIM.
And, LUTF I have not carefully palnned any ‘allgations’ ..where is the allegation? PLEASE SHOW ME ONE. I quoted Mirza’s virgin and widow prophecy in the context to show you the lies and qadianis’ ‘high’ IQ and level of intelligence. Let me say again ” amma jan came as vigin and became widow after mirza’s death” …Mirza ‘s prophecy fulfilled.. he married a virgn and widow… Pl comment.. and be careful, its the statement of your qamrul ambia…LOLOLO not my allegation.
@ lutf,
They wont have a status because they will be dead!!! Ayesha was put on house arrest for starting the first civil war inside Islam. Other people dont get preferential treatment.
There is a grave site that awaits ESA IBN MARYAM. Right next to Muhammad (saw) there exists a site that has been reserved for Esa. This is further proof of a physical return…
I am interested only in your opinion on those people who will reject Jesus and Mahdi upon their appearance according to the sunni/wahabi beleifs,.. What will be their status??
kafir, non-muslim
Lutf, this is the predicament that the sons of MGA were in…
1. MGA was a prophet (as per mahmud, circa the 1910′s), so his deniers had to be non-muslims (of the first kind), any rejector of 1 prophet of allah could not be muslim as per the Quran.
2. MGA had issued different directives in terms of his deniers. Because of MGA’s evolving status, MGA couldnt set anything in stone in terms of his deniers (or any other belief)…thats why he never wrote a TAFSIR AL QURAN.
3. The mirza brothers delivered numerous directives from 1911 to 1922 in which they declared MGA’s deniers as Kafirs. In this time period they carefully didnt mention anything about MOMIN va. NON-MOMIN.
4. From 1911 to 1922 the LAM and the mirza brothers argued on this topic. The LAM declared MGA’s deniers as of the “second kind” and still inside Islam, while the mirza brothers argued that they were kafir and outside Islam.
5. After 1922 the mirza brother slowly moved away this idea. Their marketing scheme in africa was in full swing and they wanted to change their approach globally. By 1954 this change was complete. They totally adopted the LAm approach to marketing…as funny as that sounds.
6. The mirza brothers turned MGA into the only rejectable prophet. The mirza brothers presented an idea that muslims CAN reject 1 prophet of allah and remain as muslims–as stupid as that sounds!!!
7. In ahamdiyya theology all prophets of allah must be accepted for a person to remain a muslim, except MGA, which is non-sensical!
FYI:The jews and christians were turned into KAFIR (circa 610) because they accepted all the prophets EXCEPT Muhammad (Saw).
The muslims who remain alive after Esa descends, they will become KAFIR, not a NON_MOMIN like the mirza brothers stated in 1954.
Do you get it?? When Esa NUZULS, a muslim cant remain a muslim without accepting him. He becomes a KAFIR, not of the second kind, or the third kind or the 100th kind. Muslims dont need to complicate the matter…
You see the denial of a prophet does not render one a NON_MOMIN.
1. Can I reject Hazrat Aaron and remain a muslim?
2. If I reject Hazrat Aaron does that make me a NON_MOMIN???
WILL MY QUESTIONS EVER BE ANSWERED????
@ rationalist
correction: in surat ul-bayyinah, allahu ta’ala mentions kuffar from the people of the book and the mushriks before the coming of the bayyinah. so from among them, there were kuffar before islam came. just clearing it up before it becomes a source of confusion.
@rationalist
“There is a grave site that awaits ESA IBN MARYAM. Right next to Muhammad (saw) there exists a site that has been reserved for Esa.:
“This is further proof of a physical return…”
I see! So you are going to have to wait, until he is dead and nicely berried in that particular grave reserved for him, to have a proof that he was the ESA IBN MARYAM you were waiting for!
Hummm…
Who do you think will allow him to berried there next to Rusul Allah (saw) if they did not accept him during his lifetime. [because they were waiting for a proof of his truth by his burial next to Rusul Allah (saw) ????.]
Are you really proposing this circular logic as his proof accepted?
Love 4 all:
Your comments show that you are a 12 year old.
1. Why did muslims reserve a grave site for Esa since like the time of Hazrat Umar???
2. Doesnt this prove that muslims expected Esa to be unanimously accepted by ALL muslims!!!
3. Ahmadiyya theology does not address the issue of a “reserved” grave site.
4. MGA even wrote somewhere that this hadith was authentic, he wrote something to the effect that qadian and lahore were mecca and medina..or something like that, I will have to find the reference…
5. NEWSFLASH!!!1 MGA died in lahore and was buried in qadian…tough luck guys….
@rationalist
I guess I will just take up your item # 3; it will answer all the rest of your philosophy.
The addressing of the issue of a “reserved” grave site is of no importance for the reasons I already cited – and I will cite those again:
In order to accept your version of ESA IBN MARYAM “you are going to have to wait, until he is dead and nicely buried in that particular grave reserved for him, to have a proof that he was the ESA IBN MARYAM you were waiting for!”
“Hummm…
Who do you think will allow him to be buried there, next to Rusul Allah (saw) if they did not accept him during his lifetime. [because they were waiting for a proof of his truth by his burial next to Rusul Allah (saw) ????.] ”
[spellings / typo corrected]
Again you are looking for material meanings for things that are to to be understood metaphorically.
The Hadith you mentioned actually places ESA IBN MARYAM in the same grave – the grave of Rusulullah (saw) himself. Find it and read it for yourself. Then, if you still feel that Rusulullah (saw)’s grave should be dug up to accommodate your version of ESA IBN MARYAM, be my guest. For you is your faith, and for me is mine…
I have not attempted to read if the grave-site was actually reserved – during Umar (ra)’s time, or any other time for that matter, because anyone can stand up [like you] and start to claim any place around Rusulullah (saw)’s grave is reserved for this reason or that reason. It does not make it so…
This is the ’12 years old’ talking back to you.
1. Esa will be accepted by all muslims, thats why he will be honored upon burial. Thats the point! You cleverly misunderstood that. The whole sequence of events is what you miss…..first esa is unanimously accepted, he destroys dajjal, creates peace and tranquility (by breaking the cross and eliminating the jizyah). Everyone is muslim! They honor him by placing his body next to Muhammad (saw).
2. I have never seen the grave site of Muhammad (Saw), umar or abu bakr. Not even in a picture, which shows that 3 graves and the empty plot for Esa.
3. I dont how ling this grave site has been reserved…I admitted to that. This entire topic should be researched further…
4. Hypothetically, If muslims from the Ummayed dynasty era (the first 100 years of Islam) reserved this site for Esa, that shows what they believed about him, i.e. the fact that he would be accepted by ALL!!!!
@rationalist
Fist of all, for the record, Quran denies the ‘unanimous acceptance’ aspect you mentioned. [I am certain you know the reference, but I can provide if needs be]
Secondly, before the ‘first esa is unanimously accepted’ clause comes about – you missed several things that are to happen:
[Note from admin: Anti-Muslim propaganda deleted - watch it love4all - we exercise a strictly "No Islam-bashing" policy here. Especially when your hatred seeks to distort the actual consensus position.]
Whatever, do you think that Mirza Ghulam, an impostor, a liar, a fraud, a foul-mouth, a married-woman chaser, a blasphemer, a Jesus hater, a Qur’an defiler, a Tonic-Wine requester, an alcohol prescriber and a death-wisher and hate-merchant of epic proportions could ever measure up to Isa (as)?
@Shahid:
I rest my cae….
Glad you are satisfied with my summation of your prophet’s character. You do appreciate that every characteristic I’ve listed is entirely based on the evidence, right?
so let me get this stright the Qadiany version of the Quran or the Tadkira as they call it is shufffled around by the their so called leaders to deceive the common reader so this is the game
they play with thier scripture
u can add or subtract pages from thier original numbering so any
one with critical mind gets lost reminds me of the Jews & Christian who changed thier original scripture with thier own hands for a miserable price
The Holy Quran is not shuffled around and there is only one version of it.
We have differences in our UNDERSTANDINGS & INTERPRETATIONS of what’s written… we have not actually changed what’s been written in The Quran.
The main differences in interpretations (that I know of) exist because Ahmadi’s interpret alot of it metaphorically, whereas alot of others interpret alot of it literally.
e.g. There’s one verse in The Quran that prophecises about something that eats fire and lifts one foot from the west while settling the other foot in the east (iirc- correct me if im wrong)
I’m an ahmadi and I believe this was a prophecy about aeroplanes.
Can someone else please explain your beliefs on this please?…ive been told others are actually waiting for such a beast/creation/animal? Would just like confirmation on this though, in case I’m wrong.
There is no such verse in the Qur’an. Ahmadis change the meaning of the translation and introduce false interpolations. There is sufficient proof of this.
Topic is about Tadkhira
We have answered almost every question in terms of ahmadiyyat. If you re-ask the same questions we can give you replies. You need to read more about the controversial aspects in the life of MGA.
We have ample proof with all of our allegations. I would just request you to humbly listen.
I am not familiar with the verse that you refer to. Please give a reference.
Apologies, and correct me if im wrong, but I see alot of Ahmadi’s comments being barred, just as it seems they’re about to giv an important point (however if you are getting side tracked, or ‘islam bashing’ or using any kind of language as someone has in that message to shahid -which he posted in the other thread- then get a life please. whether you’re ahmadi, or sunni, or christian, or jew, or watever, DO NOT try and represent your faith with that kind of attitude!!)….
…But what happens to comments like the following (made by Shahid) then?
“Whatever, do you think that Mirza Ghulam, an impostor, a liar, a fraud, a foul-mouth, a married-woman chaser, a blasphemer, a Jesus hater, a Qur’an defiler, a Tonic-Wine requester, an alcohol prescriber and a death-wisher and hate-merchant of epic proportions could ever measure up to Isa (as)?”
‘married-woman chaser’??
‘Tonic-wine requester’??
Is that not bashing?
It’s not bashing if it’s demonstrably true. When a man has such a character and compares himself to Muhammad (saw), Muslims have a right to be offended.
Where’s your evidence for suggesting a lot of Ahmadi comments being barred? I suggest you read the rules. Then I suggest you produce your evidence, or comments like yours will certainly get barred in the future.
He chased Muhammadi Begum. He requested wine. These are facts. Do you need references? I can dig them up as needed.
@lordknows
I urge you to please read the seerat of your so called promised messiah. You will be amazed at your findings. This could bring you to the right conclusion inshaAllah.
At present you have not read his statements and all you are doing is following what your leaders are saying.
Its business as usual and if not more than usual, you are too busy in bashing muslims, their scholars, capitalizing on some of the recent incidents in the media.
@LordKnows
I have put some quotes on the forum for comments. You also please comment – we can then discuss what is the meaning of word bashing and what kind of language should be used for discussion.
The below is from Ayyam-al-Sulh page 300:
پانچواں قرینہ ان کے وہ رسوم ہیں جو یہودیوں سے بہت ملتے ہینَ مثلا ان کے بعض قبایل ناطہ اور نکاح میں کچہ چنداں فرق نہیں سمجھتے اور عورتیں اپنے منسوب سے بلا تکلف ملتی ہیں اور باتیں کرتی ہیں۔ حضرت مریم صدیقہ کا اپنے منسوب یوسف کے ساتھ قبل نکاح کے پھرنا اس اسراءیلی رسم پر پختہ شہادت ہے۔ مگر خوانین سرحدی کے بعض قبایل میں یہ مماثلت عورتوں کی اپنے منسوبوں سے حد سے زیادہ ہوتی ہے۔ حتی کہ بعض اوقات نکاح سے پہلے حمل بھی ہو جاتاہے۔ جس کو برا نہیں مانتے بلکہ ہنسی ٹھٹھے میں بات کو ٹال دیتے ہیں کیونکہ یہود کی طرح یہ لوگ ناطہ کو ایک قسم کا نکاح ہی جانتے ہیں جس میں پہلے مہر بھی مقرر ہو جاتا ہے۔
The fifth point is their customs that are very similar to Jews. For instance, some of their tribes do not at all consider a difference between engagement and marraige and women meet their fiancees without hesitation and talk to them. Hazrat Marium’s hanging out with her fiancee Joseph before nikah is a strong testimony of this Israelite custom. Going out with fiancees among people in some frontier tribes had exceeded the limits to such an extent that sometimes pregnancy occurs before nikah but nobody cares about it and ignore it at a lighter note. Because like Jews these people also consider engagment a kind of Nikah where dowery is also fixated.
The second is from Braheen Ahmadiyya Vol 1-4 page 368 (RK page 440):
اور پھر مدت تک ظلمت خانہ رحم میں قید رہ کر اور اس ناپاک راہ سے جو کہ پیشاب کی بد رو ہے پیدا ہو کر ہر یک قسم کی آلودہ جالت کو اپے اوپر وارد کر لیا۔
And then he was stuck in the darkness of womb for a period and he was born through the filthy path which is a dirty passage of urine and contaminated himself in all respects.
You can read it and verify it. These are just two from the ocean of filth that Mirza has uttered – if you want I can give you one by one a 100 examples of filth of Mirza. Please give it a cool thought. Don’t be overwhelmed by the fact you were born in an Ahmadi family so you have to refute the truth at every cost.
WHOAAA….
@ newoberver…
I had never read that before. Is Ayyam us sullah in english anywhere?
If you can read and write urdu and english i strongly suggest that transliterate the words of MGA. I would love to read them.
I have done the one from Ayyam us sulah as below. I am not good a transliteration so if you find any problem let me know.
Panchwaan qareena in key wo rusoom hein jo yahudiyon se buhat miltey hain – maslan in key ba’z qabaíl nata aur nikah mein chandan faraq nahin samajhtey aur aurtein apney mansoob sey bila takalluf milti hein aur batein karti hein. Hazrat Maryam Siddiqa ka apney mansoob Yosuf key saath qabal nikah key phirna iss israeli rasam par pukhta shahadat hey. magar khawaneen-e-sarhadi key ba’z qaba’il mein yeh mamaslat aurtaun ki apney mansoobaun sey had sey zayada hoti hey. hatta key ba’z auqaat nikah sey pehley hamal bhi hau jata hey jiss kau bura nahin mantey balke han’si thathey mein baat kau tall dete hein kiyon keh yahud ki tarah yeh laug nata kau aik qism ka nikah hi jantey hein jiss mein pehle mahar bhi muqarrar hau jata hey.
Br. Shahid,
Just ignore those who are blaming you for carrying on this noble task of educating people who are unaware of the Ahmadiyya cult.
I have been dealing with these cult members for over 20 yrs. now and nothing has changed except that their levels of hatred and attacks on muslims take different shapes and forms in different places.
I am convinced and beyond doubt Ahmadiyyat is a false religion, but the fault lies with their leaders and mullahs.
The only problem the ordinary ones have is that they led themselves to be brainwashed and used by the ones in higher order. They don’t use their brains to find out what the reality is.
First of all, Zia, apologies for going off topic, but I hope you can understand referencing The Quran is the basis of any Muslim belief, no matter what the topic of the thread.
And i apologise again….i was wrong to say ‘alot’….it was a few comments, which were barred, as they seemed to be getting somewhere. And i simply meant to ask wat the points were that were barred.
Also, im not bashing anyone. Alot of my closest friends are sunni’s and shia’s. Furthermore, how do yu know i havent read anything as you say? This is simply one of the assumptions ive read so far. Im not saying this proves me right, but im asking you to open your minds in the same way that you’re asking me to do.
Having said this, I’m also confident you cannot provide sufficient evidence of MGA (as) being the kind of persopn you said he is. Furthermore, there are millions of people out there who wil be offended by your references to him. So unless you can prove it to the point where NOONE can doubt that he was not a man of God, please do not talk about him in that way. If you’ve heard or read these things and are simply stating them (i still dont like em, but still….) then i guess that’s your right to state in a place you have freedom of speech. BUT, going on about it in a name-calling fashion, is clear bashing and this kind of attitude can only be out of ignorance and frustration.
And if you can find references from non biased sources, then yes please. I will listen. But if i give you ahmadi sources, then without thinking about it, as far as ive seen, you’ll just say we erased stuff or added stuff. if you giv evidence, it’ll be the usual made up stuff (again, far as ive seen, with my own eyes, and seen being proven wrong infront of me).
I’ve read The Quran at my Sunni and Shia friends’ places too. Im confident it’s one and the same book and translation. And ive been to debates where Ahmadi scholars are challenged. But a few times, when they’ve been told “but you’re using your version” they’ve said “bring us a copy of The Quran yourself (which they then did) and they have still used these. That’s how confident we are that The Quran is, as I’ve said, one and the same book, with one translation…..our interpretations of these translations may vary, but like i said, that’s considering we take the metaphorical sense out of the same wordings. If you think any human can twist the meaning of The Quran and Allah has permitted those people to grow into numbers in the millions (please dont take offence when i say this), then you are dillusional.
Im not here to say who is right or wrong. But I have firm faith in Allah, His mesenger Muhammad (saw) and His book, The Quran, and the fact that any sign of anyone intentionally twisting any of this will be erased.
And may I remind you that no one has the power to call anyone kafir, who recites Kalima. That’s Allah’s choice to make.
With the verse i stated, I’ll look up the reference, but the story behind it is that my dad asked me when i was young. He stated the translation and asked me wat i thought it was a prophecy about. I replied “airplanes”. He then told me what some others believe about it. which others have confirmed to me later on in life. I still cannot understand how people cant see the metaphorical sense in this verse.
@newobserver: First of all, who/what are the verses referring to? I will reference these quotes, from places that are as non-biased as possible (if i can find different copies from different libraries) before commenting on them.
To everyone else, you are too quick to comment on them without even trying to reference them, or ask who/what these verses are referring to. Yet you say we are quick to simply believe what we are told, and we are brain washed. Please, practice what you preach.
You have an awful lot to learn, but thanks for being brave enough to come here and be open.
All of the writings of Mirza are taken from his own books. Many of us used to be Ahmadis. We left when we realised what kind of a man he was. There are simply not millions of you, that’s just cult-like thinking. At best, I’d say around half a million.
You go on about bias, we quote from Mirza’s books. You should check up our references. You will be shocked.
When referring to Qur’an, it is Muslim practice to quote the correct surah and verse number. Please don’t guess, that’s just sloppy.
I was shocked when i first read the references! It was an eye-opener. And that was before I met shahid. I was just an ahmadi who came to the realization that my religion was a fmaily business and a total fraud.
Mirza Tahir ahmad was a loser. He went to england in the 1950′s and accomplished absolutley nothing. He hitch-hiked all around England and probably frequented a few brothels and bars. And he was the guy who was chosen as Khalifa?
Dear LordKnows,
When you read the passages from writing of Mirza you don’t any teacher to tell you these are filthy. You can simply judge it by your common sense.
Both the references are a blasphemy to Hazrat Maryam as – mother of Hazrat Issa as. Obviously, Muslims love all prophets of God – when your leader uses such hateful and shameful and filthy language against them, normal Muslims are hurt. Why was he so filthy?
@TM: Saying we do not have the brains to find out what the reality is, is your opinion. We have reason to believe what we believe, just as you have reasons to believe what you do. So do not refer to us as ‘not having brains’. We could easily say the same to you since we believe diffreent.
but again, that would only be bashing.
I appreciate you hearing me out too. But Im not guessing where the quote is from. I know the quote is there…I’ve read it myself…..And, i told u i will look up the proper reference, where i saw it myself… Im not guessing where it is. So there’s nothing sloppy about it.
If not knowing the exact page and line number by heart offends anyone, i apologise….but then i doubt everyone here is a Hafiz anyway.
As to what up said;
“There are simply not millions of you, that’s just cult-like thinking. At best, I’d say around half a million. ”
Shahid please, think before you reply to this….is that a fact, or just a guess because you dont THINK there are millions of us?
In actual fact, there are currently 160million Ahmadi’s globally. Like it or not. and you THINKING and stating that im wrong proves nothing. If our numbers still concern you, please dont be too ignorant to look up records and proof. And please dont just THINK im lying without looking this up.
Finally, when i use the word bias, im only requesting you make sure the source of the book and the translation is non-biased. And again, please give me your references.
1st paragraph – fluff. 10 seconds of searching and you would have found what you wanted, instead of writing that pointless verbiage. Be scholarly. Your soul is at stake.
Where do you get your facts from? I’ve used statistical analysis. Your figure is so risible that most free-thinking people would split their sides with laughter at it. Seriously, do the basic research, learn a bit before making a mockery of people here. How old are you by the way? (You do sound quite young, in which case I guess a lot of what you’re saying is understandable and forgivable)
Never accuse me of ignorance. I have given several lectures where I show that the Ahmadiyya have talked about a wide range of figures, none of which are backed by any proof whatsoever. I also show statistically, using real-world figures, how you are worst case 200,000, best case 2 million, realistic case 500,000.
Your murabbis claimed 80M Mirzais in India recently. The census shows 100,000. Think about that. The fraud of numbers has been smashed many times over. You have a lot of reading to do my friend, a lot.
Also, please prove this;
“Ahmadis change the meaning of the translation and introduce false interpolations. There is sufficient proof of this.”
Watch my videos on this blog, particularly the one in Kingston Mosque. I have copies of your Qur’an in English with distortions in. Why would I make this up?
“Be scholarly. Your soul is at stake”
You truly believe my sole is at stake on a blog?
And I do not know the exact words to reference, I will need to find the verse in The Quran itself. which will take me more than 10seconds.
And for your information, Im not a scholar. Im simply teaching you what i know, and taking in what you’re telling me, and i will research what i need to, and reply to things, to the best of my knowledge.
Yes, I have alot to learn. But I know this….how man people follow a certain faith is not something you can calculate….you need actual registers and proof to show numbers of people who say “we are Ahmady”. How can you simply guess these and then try and say how wrong we are.
Also I wont even begin to comment on your tone of speaking to someone you disagree with….for example….
“How old are you by the way? ” dont question my age to distract people from what im pointing out.
Whether you agree with me in the end or not, do not ignore what im telling you, simply because im not an actual scholar, making an effort to show people how scholarly i am.
I agree with you – you should also not ignore the two references from books of Mirza that I have quoted. Please read and revert why he used such a filth about the women who was chosen by Allah over all the women of the world. Answer..
newobserver, i appreciate your honesty and manor of speaking. And can we all please try to keep a similar tone wth each other? Afterall, I’m not here because i hate any of you. I hope this can remain a friendly debate.
Anyway, im getting round to referencing the things you have pointed out, as well as things ive stated, which people have asked for references to.
For anyone i communicate with on ths site, please dont be offended if i reply to things late, or take my time about things. Firstly, i would prefer to reference and research things in depth before i speak about them and secondly i am going through exams at present, so dont have alot of time for this blog. i still thought I’d let you know, so you don’t think i’ve just ignored this blog now.
Lordknows
Brother take all the time that you need and yes do go and check the references yourself . Its good to know that you’ll be interested in knowing more about Ahmadiyya. If you need any sort of help or if you don’t understand anything we are always here for you brother and we have all the references you need. May Allah SWT bless you and guide you in your research.
Peace.
Admittedly, im having trouble referencing these. But I would like to say, please dont be ignorant to the fact that these are things that i believe to be, and you must admit, can be made up and twisted lies from dishonest sources. in the same way you can find twisted stories in the media today that could or could not be true, but either way, aren’t provable.
Listen, when I was researching this stuff for the first time, I thought it was made up too. I really did. It took a lot of research and a lot of pain before I realised that it wasn’t the Muslims who were lying, but the Ahmadis. We don’t want anything from you. We are patient. We are your well-wishers. We just want to welcome you back to Islam. Remember, Islam is your birthright. It was stolen from you by conditioning. Reclaim your birthright.
And take your time, and ask questions safe in the knowledge that we will not knowingly tell a lie. That would render our position pointless.
What part of the above titled thread is incorrect? I wrote the article! Show me where i erred!
@ Rationalist
I think he is talking about the two references I showed above. @LordKnows
Dear brother, there should be no problem in verifying. Kindly go to http://alislam.org/urdu/rk/
Now go to item # 46 – Ayyam-us-Sulh. You will get a PDF file – in ADOBE go to page “74 of 200″. It will say on the top, page 300 and page 66 on right margin. This starts at the 8th line of the page (including footnote).
Secondly go to item # 1 – . Braheen-i-Ahmadiyya (Vol. 1-4) you will again get a PDF file – in ADOBE go to page “440 of 674″. It will say on the top, page 440 and page 368 on the right margin. The quote starts from line 12 of the page (including footnote).
I hope this helps you to verify the source and till the time you are researching that – please don’t condemn anyone for bashing. Whatever you considered bashing on this site is not even 1% of the blasphemy that was done by Mirza in these quotes.
Right, as for the first quote, MGA (as) is talking of the people of the time. Obviously before Jesus (as) was born, the people hadnt recieved his preachings yet, let alone islamic preaching. So what is dirty, or blasphemous about it? In the same way, I could tell you that the people of Hadhrat Muhammad’s (saw) time used to drink, and all-sorts. But when they accepted Islam, they broke their wine pots, and there was a river of wine thrown away by them, etc.
As for the second quote, MGA (as) has simply described the manor in which Jesus (as) was born, since it even says in the Quran that Jesus (as) was born and raised naturally. MGA (as) has done this in response to Christian beliefs, who believe Jesus is God. MGA (as) has described it in a natural, destailed way, so as to make an impact on minds of others, and clearly say that this is how humans are born, so how could Jesus (as) be God? So Im sorry if talking about biology offends you. After all, if you see Jesus (as) as a prophet, and a human, you must admit he was born naturally, and this is what happens in a natural birth. Why does mentioning this natural process become a blasphemy?
MGA (as) has not said it in an obviously offensive way/tone. He has not, for example, said he was born this way so he was dirty…he has simply said this is how he was born, like othe humans, so he obviously cannot be The Lord.
Again, like i have seen in every debate i have been to, or had with anyone, things are not presented in their context, or misconstrued so they look wrong.
For example, if i said “in the Quran, Allah says “I am the Lord….”etc., but someone then quoted me as having said (Nousobillah)….”I am the Lord”, without exaplaining the rest of what i said, obviously it would sound wrong to you.
With all due respect, the way you have presented and understood your quotes, is incomplete, misunderstood and mis-leading. Please explain the context of yuor quotes….i even had to ask you myself before doing this research who/what was MGA (as) talking about, and what was the context and reason for these quotes.
Simply reading the qutes words for word and not understanding them, is ignorance. But again, I stand by what i have said in all my responses….you can believe it or not. But you will at some point at the very least, have to admit that the reasons you are putting so much effort, so passionately into proving Ahmadies wrong, are mostly lies, conspiracy and misunderstandings. So we should stick to referencing the Quran first and foremost. That is the first and the only book that we all read and cannot change.
Dear LordKnows,
This is the difference in Islam and Mirzaiat. A Muslim will not use such a language about a normal human being let alone the woman chose by Allah. Only a filthy Mirzai like you can defend such pornographic blasphemy.
I would recommend you to write an article about the wedding night of Mirza with Nusrat Jahan and write all pronographic details – after all it is also written in Quran that husbands and wives get comfort from each other.
Write that article with all details mentioning the genitals of both just to simply describe the manner how Mirza Mahmood was born. Just like you said – “MGA (as) has simply described the manor in which Jesus (as) was born”.
That will help you clear the allegation what people say that Mirza called his son as Child of Allah.
I appreciate your approach. and i know from how you speak here that you wouldnt knowingly tell a lie. All im saying is, when alot of conspiracy goes against someone, it often leads to false evidence being made against them and lies spreading, etc. If pakistan authorities can go as far as to arrest an ahmadi for saying Assalamo Alaikum, then just imagine how far they are willing to go to stop us. How many lies they must have published, which are now coming across as facts to you. Im not saying you have to believe this, because you are obviously set in your beliefs of these stories. But at least admit these can still be conspiracies. I know by what you write, you have done your research. and i admit i haven’t researchd AS much as you, but i know for a fact i dont believe half of the things that you guys are sayin Ahmadi’s believe. How could our founders have preached one thing, yet we belive another? Look at it with your common sense. Bear in mind, i know the previous and present khalifa’s as family friends from pakistan, from before they became khalifa’s. And I can tell you that so much that you have been told about them (such as showing hate against muslim countries) is false, Yet Im just requesting you keep an open mind as to what you read when it comes to all the khalifa’s, and MGA (as) as well. If these ‘facts’ about the khalifa’s are wrong, then its more than likely that the stories you are told or have read about MGA (as) are lies and conspiracies too.
Why would someone write against Jesus (as) and curse him in one book, then show respect towards him in another, AND preach pretty much the same principles all muslims believe, yet hate them? The only proof of hate within muslims, is the extremists that terrorise in the name of islam, or think they will see heaven for killing Ahmadi’s. Please use your efforts to open the world’s eyes to these monsters instead of trying to convince people that we are built on hate, when all we preach is love for all, hatred for none. The only hatred out there from so-called muslims is from extremists. and its either towards the west, or towards ahmadies. We are not the ones who hate anyone.
Another factor to bear in mind…. my dad (56 yrs old) and grandad (95yrs old) for example are both born Ahmadi’s. If any of this hate against other muslims, or cursing of Jesus (as) from ahmadies, or our founder that u speak of is true, then why have my dad and grandad not know of it? Obviously if Ahmadiyyat was ever about the slightest bit of hate, at least my grandad would have heard of it in his youth, about 90years ago.
And i also appreciate your intention when you say to me “reclaim your birthright”, but that is only for God to give. And I still believe as every muslim believes now, and believed before me, in Allah, the Quran, and the Holy Prophet (saw), just as MGA (as) did.
@rationalist: you wrote:
“After the death of MGA his followers must have accidentally uncovered the truth. And now Masroor is trying to suppress this information.”
if our motives were so poorly, we would not speak passionately about these things. and since we are passionate about Islam, then we would follow the right path, whatever we discover it to be. Like i said, our khalifas’ motives have never been as you describe them. in fact there’s a video of the third Khalifa, where an interviewer asks how do you plan to get people to listen to /follow you? he simply replied
“by winning their hearts”
that’s the nature of our spiritual leaders. not the nature that some people have led you to believe. It’s a shame that people as passionate about islam as you are, are being misled in this way.
To show another reason to believe we are not close minded, the fourth Khalifa said in one of his earlier speaches, where he spoke out against people killing Ahmadies….if Jesus returns, then me and my Jama’at will be the first to do Ba’ait.
The link to this speach (it is specifically said to those who kill Ahmadies, so please dont take everything said in this speach as if it is all targeted at every other muslim in the fashion that it is said):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56AxMWh1BCk&feature=player_embedded
and watch this video, especially the last 30 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xOalwA07sw&feature=player_embedded
If you put aside your one-trapped minds for a minute (no offence) and open your minds to what is said in these videos, and why, and seriously think about it in this context, then you will at least understand that alot of what you hav seen as ‘facts’, are all lies. Believe in Ahmadiyyat or not, you cannot let lies about anyone leave your tongues.
These videos should at least raise the possibility of the credibility of the sources of your research being questionable.
By stating these things, all im saying is this….you need to reconsider your research and ‘facts’ about Ahmadies. I hope this can be appreciated.
@ lordknows….
Obviously you have lots of reading to do.
I dont know where to start with you. We need to pick a topic and study that together for like 1 week, then we can move on to another topic. The topic of this thread is the differences between tadhkirah of 2004 and tadhkirah of 2009. Now, you havent commented on the “missing ilham” that I found and wrote about.
This thread also has a connection with the status of those who reject the prophethic claims of MGA. Are they kafirs or not? Its a simple question. Your jamaat believes that the muslims who reject the prophethood of MGA are not classified into the same group of prophetic rejectors as explained in the Quran. In the Quran it is written that the rejection of any prophet renders a person a Kafir, in other words a non-muslim, in other words a Christian or Jew…
Ahmadis claimed after 1935 the rejectors of MGA were only non-momin and still muslim. This is the crux of the matter. This strategy by the ahmadis is an oxy-moron. It doesnt make any sense at all. This is the lone argument that shows the lac of density of ahmadiyyat thought process.
To begin, when you say:
“in other words a non-muslim, in other words a Christian or Jew…”
how does that automatically leave them a christian or jew when they obviouly believe different to christians/jews?
Anyway, back on topic. the whole point of the missing ilham, is what you then say about being kafir or not.
Within the term of the word kafir, if that is what the Quran says, then by definition, from our view point, yes, that means you are not true muslims. But the reason i have not mentioned this (i do realise that means i was going off topic, and i apologise) is because of the point im trying to make….it is not my power to say who is kafir, if you recite and believe in kalima. Simple.
BUT, by definition, if MGA (as) is true, then what is written, has been written. its not for me to say. If MGA (as) wasnt true, then by definition, we are wrong.
Like i said in another post i made, stating these things as your belief is one thing. declaring them is another. and as far as the letter MGA (as) supposedly writ, he denied writing this letter. unless it can be proven he is lying here, i stand firm in my faith that he did not say this in a declaration form, at any point in his life. I hope that answers your question enough to make clear what my understanding and belief of this subject is.
1. The Quran says that the rejection of a prophet makes one a non-muslim. This was directly related to the jews and the christians for not accepting Muhammad (saw). Since the jews and christians didnt believe in ALL of the prophets, they were called Kafirs.
1.a. Ahmadiyyat is claiming something much different. You guys are claiming the the rejection of MGA only renders a muslims as a “non-momin”.
2. You say that no one has the right to call someone else a KAFIR. Right? Is this your belief? Please confirm?
3. MGA denied this letter but the compilers of Tadhkirah found it and published it, thus proving MGA as a liar. And they did this on accident. After we wrote about it, in the new 2009 edition of Tadhkirah the ilham in question disappeared.
3.a. I was looking for this ilham to give someone a reference to it and noticed that it was totally missing in the new edition.
4. Are you sure that none of your khalifas called muslims kafirs? Please confirm.
Please watch the videos i have posted. These will answer most of your questions. You will hear from our khalifa’s own mouth what he and MGA (as) believed about calling people kafirs.
Please pay attention to how MGA (as) took 12years of being called a kafir, before talking about kafirs, and even then only quoted The Holy Prophet (saw) on the matter, and said he does not wish to call anyone kafir, but he cannot go against what the Holy Prophet (saw) had said.
So 1: Yes, that is what the Quran says, and what The Holy Prophet (saw) said.
1a. where did you hear about this non-momin claim? If this is true, then i admit it does not make sense. But everything ive heard from our khalifas simply states what the holy prophet (saw) has said, and defends ahmadiyyat when it comes to others calling us kafirs.
2. Yes, this is my belief…as we all know, Mohammad (saw) said if you call another kalima reciting person a kafir, you yourself are a kafir.
3. I will try to reference all 4editions of Tadhkirah before commenting, but yes, i believe MGA (as) did not say anything like this, unless it was where he quoted The Hadith on the matter, after being called a kafir.
4. I know for sure if our khalifa’s have ever used the word kafir, it is only in explanation and quotation of Hadith, like in the videos.
@Lordknows
Anyone who believes that there is a new prophet after Muhammad (pbuh) are outside the fold of Islam.
This has been the practice of muslims since the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that’s why there are so many clear authentic Hadith for us to be aware of it.
sorry, i should probably elaborate on what i mean when i say stating them is one thing, declaring them is another…
I simply meant explaining something as you believe it, is one thing.
But specifically branding someone a kafir is another, it is not allowed and it is offensive. And I do not believe MGA (as) writ that letter. And there is no hard evidence that he did. Just the words of one person stating that he did.
As for the verses being removed from Tadhkira, where did you get your copies of the book from? I will try to find out more, but as far as i’ve been told so far, the Tadhkirah was written by others as quotes of MGA (as) and as more were added, it was updated. But none that i have heard of, have been removed.
Whether you believe MGA (as) to be true or not, that’s upto you and between you and God. Only God can tell us in the end who is right and who is wrong.
So until then, as the fourth Khalifa said:
“If Jesus (as) returns, me and my Jama’at will be the first to do ba’ait”.
1. Are you sure that people shouldnt call other muslims as Kafirs? Are you sure about this?
2. Are you sure that MGA never wrote that letter? Are you sure? Why is it in Tadkirah then? Who found the letter?
2.a. Did you read the part where it is written that mirza bashir ahmad was the chairman of the team that compiled tadhkirah.
3. You need to check 2004 edition vs. 2009 edition of tadhkirah. I have both of them in pdf format.
1. It is a Hadith.
2. Im sure MGA (as) never claimed this unless quoting Hadith. Like i said, because of what i have heard and read now, i will refernce Tadhkirah as best i can before commenting on whether MGA (as) wrote any letter, and what the context and meaning was, even if he did. And im not sure why you’re asking me who found the letter (that’s if there was a letter like this). Besides, whoever is claiming that MGA (as) said this should answer that.
2a. no i didn’t, but i will reference it properly (was this quote in other copies, or in earlier editions?
3. I will try and reference all editions im able to find hard copies of. Im pretty sure my dad will have an older copy/copies.
Looks like what i thought was along the right tracks….please watch this video as well. And please listen to the details The fourth Khalifa mentions with every statement he says. Otherwise this will end up being misinterpreted as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlkOI0ko0Vc&feature=player_embedded#!
another video, of non-ahmadi’s, proving your readings untrue….
(these guys disagree with Ahmadi’s too, but still are able to speak the truth, with respect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVOMV7vDFck&NR=1