“Christ and the Crucifixtion” by Todd Lawson

“Christ and the Crucifixtion” by Todd Lawson

Todd Lawson recently released a thoroughly researched book titled Christ and the Crucifixion. In this research book, Lawson analyzed Surah al-Nisa’, Verse 157 (4:158 in the ahmadi Quran) and the historicity therein. Lawson takes us on a journey through the thought process of over twenty-five mufassireen (interpreters of the Qu’ran). Lawson gives the reader an opportunity to view what Muslim scholars had to say on the subject.
This is a very troubling development for Ahmadiyyat. This research project shows that, historically for generations, 99.9% of Muslims believed in four things:
a—That ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه اسلام was never on a cross
b—Another person was put on the cross
c—-Jesus physically ascended to heaven
d—-Jesus will physically descend
There was even an account of Al-Zamakhshari (d. 538/1144). Zamakhshari was of Mu’tazalite persuasion and was known to hold “rationalistic” and non-traditional tendencies (Lawson, 100). The author comments on Zamakhshari , writing:
“Al-Zamakhsari relates the famous story of how Jesus asked his disciples for a volunteer to be killed in his stead. God cast the likeness of Jesus upon a disciple who was subsequently crucified and killed. The exegete mentions that some believe this to have been Judas, who was substituted for Jesus and crucified as punishment for his betrayal. That this account is unsatisfactory of Al-Zamakhsari is evident when he details the confusion of the witness of these events: ‘some said that Jesus was killed and crucified, and some said, “If that is Jesus, where is our companion, or if that is our companion, where is Jesus?” Some said he was raised to heaven and some said that the face, is the face of Jesus, but the body, is the body of our companion” (pg. 101, Lawson).
Amazingly enough, when defining Aal Imran, verse 54 Zamakhasari wrote that mutawafikka meant death. Lawson writes the impression of Zamakhasari: “The Jews then agreed to kill Jesus, and God informed Jesus that he would raise him to heaven and purify him of association with the offenders”.
3:55 by Al- Zamakhsari:
“Lo, God said: “Oh Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto me, and cleanse thee of (the presence of) those who are bent on denying the truth…………….”

In summary, Zamakhsari believed:
a—Jesus was never on the cross
b—Allah caused Jesus to die before He wafaa’d him to heaven, physically
c—Jesus will physically return
d—Someone else was hung on the cross, not ‘Esa عليه السلام
This proves that in the past there were some Muslims who believed that ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام had died according to Surah Aal Imran verse 54, but that did not change the other underlying factors of the substitution theory. In other words, just because Jesus died, does not change the fact that he will physically return, nor does it change the fact that someone else was hung. Nor does it mean that he travelled to India!
In my opinion, it appears that some Muslims believed that ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام died the day after his disciple was hung. Jesus was able to meet some of his companions before he was physically raised. The Muslim scholars who wrote that ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام died, they all believed in the “substitution theory”. They never thought that he lived more than a week after the attempted hanging.
Mirza Ghulam and other Ahmadi leaders have also quoted Imam Malik in terms of the death of ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام. They have written that Imam Malik also believed in the death of ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام. It seems that Imam Malik believed that ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام died just a few days after his likeness was cast upon another, it also appears that Imam Malik believed that ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام had physically ascended to heaven and will physically re-appear. Further, Imam Malik believed that ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام would return as a “non-prophet”.
Ahmadiyya thought has cleverly masked the totality of the beliefs of the ones that they quote. May Allah guide them back to Islam!
Todd Lawson is an Associate Professor at the University of Toronto. His accolades are as follows:
• PHD (1987) McGill University
• M.A. (1980) McGill University
• B.A. (1976) University of British Columbia

WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO–CIRCA 1883

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87 thoughts on ““Christ and the Crucifixtion” by Todd Lawson

  1. As much of this site is devoted to undercooked theories, this one is no exception. Muslim scholars have been simply narrating the christian story of Crucifixion while trying to reconcile it with Quran. They had no hard evidence of their own about the event.

    Evidence, as uncovered during the 19th century has proven that Jesus (as) did not die on the cross, he did not die a few days afterwards and he was never raised to the skies.

    Any mufassir would try to interpret Quran according to the knowledge available during their time and why should Zamakhshiri be an excpetion.

    • Please quantify “much of this site is devoted to undercooked theories”. If you can’t do that with real evidence within 24 hours, your post will be deleted. If you want to retract that sentence, I’m happy to edit your comment for you.

      • examples..

        All of them..

        Please feel free to delete if you are unhappy with this statement. I have provided my reasons in the responses spread across many posts on this site.

        • Lutf, even if you believe that ‘Esa bin Maryam (AS) died in Kashmir after a journey throughout the Orient, its simply a matter of fact that the vast majority of the earliest Muslims believed as the traditional Muslims of nowdays believe: That ‘Esa (AS) was taken up by Allah and will return.

          Right now, I’m not stating whether that’s right or wrong. I’m saying that that’s what pretty much everyone believed for 1300 years prior to MGA.

          There is no concept of “reconcile with the Bible”. I don’t know where people get that from. Most Muslims don’t even read the Bible. Even if that was true, it would not explain why literally everyone believes as we do. I mean, wouldn’t people where Christianity doesn’t exist not get affected? Like Muslims in China?

        • Name a problem that you have and I will answer it admirably.

          It seems that this thread has pinged at your heart. It’s not my fault that your prophet used an alternate idea in terms of the what happened to Jesus to base his religion off of.

          You prophet gave off the impression that Imam Maliki even believed that jesus was dead, but he didnt elaborate on the other beliefs of Maliki in terms of Jesus, i.e. that Maliki believed that jesus was never on any cross and that Jesus would physically return.

          WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO—CIRCA 1883

          • i donot think that there is anything which would have pinged the heart of any ahmadi.
            u said that Imam malik believed that jesus would physically return .
            how u wrote above . what is your source?

    • Where is your evidence? Can you find exactly where Islam created the “substitution theory”.

      The answer is NO. The substituion theory has existed since even before the time of Muhammad, this was not a development that was started after the death of the HP. If you think so, PLEASE PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE!!

      Sale and Zamakhsahri’s Quranic commentary proves that literally mutawafikka means death, but this was never used to erase the sustitution theory. Also, Jesus’ death should not have been the basis of reform that the muslims eagerly yearned for. Muslims need more than the death of Jesus for reform. Muslims need a strong personality to lead them back to the top of human evolutionary cycle. MGA hasnt accomplished that in 100+ years.

      MGA just wrote something that had been written before, it was nothing new, even Maliki had wrote that Jesus died, but he also wrote that jesus was never on any cross. MGA conveniently kept quiet about the totality of Maliki’s belief.

      MGA combined sir syed and nicholas notovitch and developed his business.

      I was a victim, now I am a muslim.

    • What evidence? Didn’t he (AS) supposedly die in Galilee? Aw no wait I meant Jerusalem. I’m just being silly I meant Syria. Wait, one last go, I’ll go with Kashmir…

    • re/Luft
      so iam a bit cinfused here bro so according to u if Jesus [a.s]
      was not Raised up to Heaven then where exactly did he go?

  2. Another intersting development that I read was in terms of the Quranic translation that was doen by George Sale. George Sale was the first person who wrote an english translation of the Quran.

    George Sale defined 3:55 as such:

    “When GOD said, O Jesus, verily I will cause thee to die, and I will take thee up unto me, and I will deliver thee from the unbelievers; and I will place those who follow thee above the unbelievers, until the day of resurrection: then unto me shall ye return, and I will judge between you of that concerning which ye disagree.”

    George Sale defined 4:157 as such:

    “and have said, Verily we have slain Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of GOD; yet they slew him not, neither crucified him, but he was represented by one in his likeness; and verily they who disagreed concerning him were in a doubt as to this matter, and had no sure knowledge thereof, but followed only an uncertain opinion. They did not really kill him; but GOD took him up unto himself: and GOD is mighty and wise. And there shall not be one of those who have received the scriptures, who shall not believe in him, before his death; and on the day of resurrection he shall be a witness against them.1 Because of the iniquity of those who Judaize, we have forbid-“

    George Sale is a nuetral bystander, in his opinion, in terms of Quranic wording, Jesus did die. Also, in his opinion, in terms of Quranic wording, Jesus’ likeness was cast upon another.

    ^this shows that even if Jesus died, that doesnt prove anything! It was always an alternate idea that existed in Islamic thought.

    Muslims need better reform ideas, then Jesus’ death. We needed economic as well as social stability, not a diatribe on why or why not this prophet is dead. MGA based his religion on an irrelevant concept. He didnt really give muslims much, he just exposed a gray area of the Quran to the world to see.

  3. “And when Allah will say “O Jesus, son of Mary, didist thou say to men, “Take me and my mother for two Gods besides Allah? “He will answer “Holy art thou I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, thou wouldst have surly have known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in thy mind. It is only thou who art the knower of hidden things “I said noting to them except that which thou didst commanded me worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them but since thou didst cause me to die thou has been the watcher over them and thou are the watcher over all things.(Ch 5 : 117-118)

  4. Holy prophet(saw) himself believe on the death of jesus(as), because He(saw) give the example of His(saw) death with the death of Jesus(as),
    Al Bukhari –ul Tafseer Sura Ma’idah, p:1411, Vol:3)
    It is related by Hadrat ibn Abbas ra he relates that the Holy Prophet saw delivered a sermon and said: ….O People, a number of people from the followers of my Ummah would be taken to hell, thereupon, I shall say, O my Lord, these are my companions. Then I would be told: you do not know what they contrived after you. At that time, I shall say precisely what the righteous servant – Jesus son of Mary – said: “and I was witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the watcher over them”:

    • The hadith that you quoted gives me the impression that Jesus died just shortly after the attempted crucifixtion. Then afterwards Jesus was not responsible for the innovations that were created primarily by St. Paul.

      St. Paul spread the beliefs of the atonement, as well as the beliefs that jesus died for the sins of man, etc etc etc….

      According to the ahmadiyya scenario, st. paul died roughly 40 years before Jesus died–which is total hog wash. According to ahmadiyya theory jesus was alive and well in india while his beliefs were being corrupted…

      your theory has thus been destroyed! sorry…

      WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO–CIRCA 1883

      • Jesus was not responsible for the corruption of any other religion body .
        jesus was not answerable to GOD why hindos were worshiping the idols
        or
        why the chineses did not accepted the One GOD.

        Jesus was responsible for only the bani Israelies because he (as) was sent to Just Bani Israel .

        St. Paul was never able to corrupt the believes of the early christians . for detail read this
        http://real-islam.org/reply/i_satar.htm

        specially pay attention on this part so that u might learn some facts , else u are at this point telling us JUST story .

        “It is a proof of our opponent’s intellectual defeat that instead of discussing the actual controversy and presenting verses of Holy Quran in support of their doctrine regarding Jesus being raised bodily to heaven, they are hiding their faces in irrelevant debates. They may use all their evil tactics to misguide the masses, but one thing is sure that they can never turn day into night.”

        how true it is
        u run away , even u admitted defeat over the meaning of the Mutawfeak . Now spending useless time on such matters which are not directly related .

        • Once again, it is very hard to understand your verbage.

          The consensus of islamic opinion points towards two things:

          1. jesus was never on any cross
          2. jesus will physically return

          Produce some evidence which is contrary!!!! Either that, or go back to your village…

  5. sahaba-e-Rasool believe on the death of Jesus(as), if you dont then what?
    Another Hadith related by Hadrat Ibn Abbas ra in this Hadith it is said that Hadrat Ibn Abbas ra was explaining about the word “ Mutawaffeeka” that it translation means death he demonstrated by using also the Arabic word “ Momeetuka” ‘Qaala ibne Abbas in Mutawaffeka, mumeetuka’ . [Bukhari, Kitab alTafseer, Surah Ma’idah vol 3 p 1410]
    Now every Arab knows that the Arabic word ‘Momeetuka’ means death. Therefore the Arabic word “Mutawaffeeka” can only mean death.

    • Once again, where is the hard evidence? Is there a tafseer from that era that echoes your sentiment? You are trying to infer from a hadith that the HP believed that Jesus was dead. NICE TRY! It doesnt work, you have twisted a belief to make it mean whatever you need it to mean.

      THIS IS PRECISELY WHY MUSLIMS DIDNT WANT THE QURAN TRANSLATED INTO OTHER LANGUAGES. Muslims were cautious to do so because they didnt want the meaning of the words to change.

      Ahmadiyyat has made the Quran sound like a different book in comparison with the quran that existed in the first 100 years of Islam.

    • Ibn Abbas believed it in the way that this verse is about that he will died after

      http://letmeturnthetables.blogspot.com/2010/02/jesus-did-not-die-according-to-quran.html

      Ibn Abbas (RA) said: “Mutawaffeeka is ‘I’ll cause you to die.'” (Sahih Bukhari 14/149)

      The complete narration along with chain is found in Ibn kathir 2/47, Al-Tabari 6/457, Ibn Abi Hatim 3/14 Hadith 3630.

      But we ought to consider other narrations of Ibn Abbas (RA) to understand his actual position on this issue. The following one clarifies his stand point;

      عن ابن عباس في قوله { إني متوفيك ورافعك } يعني رافعك ثم متوفيك في آخر الزمان

      Narrated Az-Zahaak from Ibn Abbas that the verse ‘Inni Mutawaffeka wa rafiuka’ means: “I will raise you to myself then I’ll cause you to die near the End of Times.” (Durr Al-Manthur 2/347)

      It is enough to show that even according to Ibn Abbas’ (RA) view Jesus (PBUH) is alive yet and the verse to him refers only to his death in the End of Times after his descent.

      Ibn Abbas (RA) believed in the physical ascension of Prophet Jesus (PBUH). This fact also refutes any notion of attributing Jesus’ (PBUH) death to him.

      عن ابن عباس قال: لما أراد الله أن يرفع عيسى إلى السماء خرج على أصحابه …ورفع عيسى من رَوْزَنَة في البيت إلى السماء

      Ibn Abbas said, “When Allah intended to raise Jesus (PBUH) to the heavens, he went to his companions,…Jesus (PBUH) ascended to heaven through an opening in the top of the house.”
      (Ibn Abi Hatim 4/431 Hadith 6266, Ibn Kathir 2/449. Ibn Kathir called it Sahih)

      • i wondered what stir Mr XIA to write once again the same thing. He should have answered to my question whcih i rasied earlier on his quotation .

        1) when the hazrat Ibne Abas have been quoted of believing Mutafaeeka have the meaning of DEATH. then why on the every quraninc translation your ulema commit dishonesty by give altoghether wrong meaning to word TAWAFII .

        2) Who gave authority to hazrat Ibne abbas to change the place of the words of the quran . when متوفيك comes before رافعك then why should we change the place .
        just because your ancestor made some unquranic believe and now being a good children u wanna follow it blindly .Or there is any other good reason to do so.
        also i showed the verdict of the hazrat Muhammad (saw)

        the hadith says that when hazrat Muhammad (saw) reached SAFA then he (saw) read the ayyat
        {إن الصفا والمروة من شعائر الله} [2 / البقرة / الآية 158]
        and then said
        “أبدأ بما بدأ الله به
        i shall start from where GOD have started

        in the presence of above hadith , Death of the Jesus have been proved .

        3) Narration of the Bukhari is authentic but what about those narrators who mentioned the said Ibne abbas religion of death of hazrat Essa (as) after returning back from the SKY . there are saying of the Ulema who pointed that narrators used to related thing falsely to Hazrat Ibne abbas (as)

        4) about the story of going to the sky via the window of the room . i wanted to ask just a simple question .

        how Ibne Abbas learned taht Jesus went to teh sky via the window. ? how he come to know the last moment talk with his followers ?

        failure of giving any source proves that this is just a story which is attributed to teh Hazrat Ibne Abbas (rz)

  6. in the Holy Quran (Ch 5 : 117-118) is very clear Esa(as) said during my lifetime Charistion were not changed but after His(as) death He(as) dont know about their change of believe,
    as a believer of Holy Book 1 verse is enough for me but i dont know how many you need for satisfaction?

    • Once again, your ignorance vibrates through your words.

      If esa died 90 years (120 a.d.) after he escaped from Jerusalem, AS YOUR PROPHET GUESSED. Then, wasnt he alive while his status was changed to godhead? This is another contradiction that muslims have pointed out about your beliefs.

      FYI: MGA had written that jesus’ teachings were corrupted just 25 (roughly) years after his escape.

      • ^ And at the same time he claims it was not possible for his (Jesus’) teachings to go astray, it was only possible after his death which would be approx 125CE according to MGA. Then he blames Paul for corrupting and changing Christianity. Paul died before the Kashmir Jesus so it could only b done during the time of the Kashmir Jesus yet MGA says the religion was protected while he was alive… so many holes in his story.

      • your jahilya is proofed, when jesus(as) escaped and went into kashmir and his companians dont know where He(as) went, who will go there to tell about this concept, even this concept was created after 100 years of His escape

        try to understand any thing by your self, every time you need an interprater, and you claim your self in light, then why you need help to see the truth

        • I didnt understand anything this guy wrote!!!

          You should start with crayons then slowly work your way up to pens. Then, you can move up to keyboards.

          You might want to give coloring books a shot, I think Masroor has a bunch of those in his den, send him a request to borrow….

          WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO—CIRCA 1883

      • http://real-islam.org/reply/i_satar.htm
        read this answer carefully , ahmadies do not belive that real Israleis got corrupted in the lief time of the Jesus at all.

        Real christains remained on the right path for a long time. Paul could not change thier believe on the turaat .

        u , being a child , just herd something and started building things on it.

        • I dont even understand what you wrote. It is a well known fact that Jesus’ mission was corrupted very early on. St. Paul was probably the guy who did so. The year of his death could not have exceeded 100 a.d., in which case Jesus(allegedly) still outlived him.

          • so u did not bother to read the link i provieded .
            what can i do when a Great scholar even do not read what others have stated.
            in summary . Paul did laid down the foundation of modern christianity but he was unable to influence any Bani Israeli , towards whom Jesus was sent and For whom jesus was responsible .
            for detail read the link

  7. ^ I have heard the same argument from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself but liars always contradict themselves… so you clearly feel the verse means Hazrat Isa (AS) has no idea his teachings changed after he left Earth right? In light of this, please explain your “prophets'” lies below…

    “God Almighty informed Jesus (AS) in heaven of the outrage which his people and his followers had created in the world”

    “Jesus was apprised of the poisonous doctrines which the Christians had adopted”

    “…the soul of Jesus was greatly perturbed on finding the beliefs of his followers utterly corrupted.”

    Jesus (AS) knows nothing of the changed doctrine… yet he knows? Well done Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, truly you can unite mankind with all your confusion. Please wake up and leave this cult and follow the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW), not the one who claims he is superior.

  8. when Holy Prophet (saw) will be told about His(saw) Ummah was changed in the heaven then He(saw) will not alive. (Al Bukhari –ul Tafseer Sura Ma’idah, p:1411, Vol:3)

    Jesus (as) was told after His death that his Ummah is changed not in his life,

    Holy Propet(saw) meet with many prophets in heaven during israh and He(saw) saw jesus(as) with physically dead prophets,

    • @ speaktruth-khalidnawaz- or whatever alias you are using.
      I think an intelligent discussion is beyond your scope.

      The purpose of this article was to prove that other muslims had also defined mutawafikka as death. MGA wasnt the first. This was an alternate idea that existed in Islamic thought.

      If jesus did indeed die, that doesnt mean that he was put on the cross. This is where MGA got creative, well, he actually plagurized from sir syed and used the swoon theory.

      If jesus did indeed die that also doesnt disprove that he wont physically return.

      MGA mixed and matched a bunch of theories to create his own unique theory.

      AS IF, jesus’ death solves the problem of world poverty, AS IF, jesus’ death eliminates christianity and judaism.

      MGA’s theory did not even slow down the growth of christianity. Christianity has 33% of the worlds inhabitants, 200 years ago this number was probably like 25%.

      MGA failed, his idea that Jesus died hasnt even put a dent in christianity.

      I WAS A VICTIM, NOW I AM A MUSLIM–CIRCA 2008

      • [23:100] Until, when death comes to one of them, he says entreating, ‘My Lord, send me back,
        [23:101] ‘That I may do righteous deeds in the life that I have left behind.’ Never, it is but a word that he utters. And behind them is a barrier until the day when they shall be raised again.
        this law is mentioned in Holy Quran that one who die there is a barrier behind him, never can return alive, if jesus will return alive how will you proof the truth of this verse?

        [15:49] Fatigue shall not touch them there, nor shall they ever be ejected therefrom.
        one who will entered in heaven will never ejected, how Esa(as),
        your believe about 2nd coming of Jesus(as) is not according to the teaching of Holy Quran, and as a muslim i believe that nothing can happen gainst the teach of this Book,

        • Rationlist what is ur belief regarding the Jesus
          are u among those muslims who beleived that Jesus died but he wil come physically again ?

          • I DONT KNOW!!! How’s that for an answer!!1 How about: It doesnt matter! How about: I dont care!!

            It is totally irrelevant for muslims to dwell on this. It’s not in the Quran—thats another answer!

            Muslims were slow to evolve in the industrial age, but we are making progress now. I predict that in 50 years muslims will be atop the evolutionary scale.

            I showed the world that other islamic scholars also believed that mutawafeeka meant death, but they also still held the belief that Jesus was never nailed to any type of structure, and they always believed in a physical return.

            Muslim should not dwell on anything which is not mentioned in the Quran, i.e. The return of Jesus.

            WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO—CIRCA 1883

          • what a beautiful way of running , when asked form rationalist about his belief regarding the jesus death / ascension he replied

            “I DONT KNOW!!! How’s that for an answer!!1 How about: It doesnt matter! How about: I dont care!!”

            If u do not care and if u do not Know , then why u bother to
            write blog .

            what u achieved by showing the world that old people believed on a “STORY” of jesus ascension .?
            you have not achieved nothing other then proving the rule “Follow blindly ur ancestor ”

            keep following this rule.

            i wonder should i now bother to answer to that person who even do not know what he believes OR cowardly do not wanna tell it out of shame ?

  9. You didn’t answer the contradiction and we are accused of being biased. Your “prophet” says Jesus has been informed of this NOW. So if he already knows BEFORE the day of judgment then as per MGA will Jesus lie to Allah (SWT) and say I had no idea their teachings changed when according to MGA he already knows?

    • Jesus(as) is responsible what happen during His life, He will not lie but will reply the question asked, have He told something wronge to His belivers,
      literal bro, this have a lesson for Christians that during the life time of Jesus (as), He(as) never told and this believe of trinity is creation after His death,
      why all the time you need simple explanations even you know about unseens( like who is wrong and who is right),?

      • Why do you keep contradicting your ‘prophet’? MGA says “…it would not be possible that Isa (AS), who is a prophet of God, tell such a blatantly plain lie in the presence of God on the Day of Judgement viz., ‘I have no knowledge whatsoever that after me my people adopted a false doctrine and made me and my mother gods.” Can you read? He says NO KNOWLEDGE yet MGA says Jesus (AS) is well aware of the corrupted doctrine. Make your mind up. This is why I do not bother debating with Ahmadis, you twist and twist until finally you try and change the topic. I’m not here to debate. I’ve pointed something out to you, make what you will of it, God is my witness I conveyed the message to you. Allah hafiz.

  10. I recently found this:

    MGA writes Lecture Ludhiana (1904):
    Page 27 http://www.alislam.org/library/books/ludhiana/LectureLudhiana.pdf

    “No consensus was ever reached about Jesusas being alive. Those who subscribe to such an idea have not read the relevant literature, otherwise they would have come to know that the sufis themselves believed in the death of Jesusas and in his
    second coming in the figuratively sense.”

    1. MGA is caught lying, yet again.
    2. MGA never produced a list of those who thought that Jesus was dead and who also believed that he would figuratively return.

    • this is your level of believe, that 1st you ignore the Holy Book, 2nd tafseer done by Holy Prophet(saw), 3rd tafseer by Hazrat Ibne Abas in sahih bukhari,
      but if i send you evidance that sofi believe the death of Jesus(as), will you change you faith?, never becouse you get stemp on your heart,
      but if you are intrested i can send you some references, every thing we will do for you, but what are you doing with yourself?

      • Ibn Abbas (RA) said: “Mutawaffeeka is ‘I’ll cause you to die.'” (Sahih Bukhari 14/149)

        The complete narration along with chain is found in Ibn kathir 2/47, Al-Tabari 6/457, Ibn Abi Hatim 3/14 Hadith 3630.

        But we ought to consider other narrations of Ibn Abbas (RA) to understand his actual position on this issue. The following one clarifies his stand point;

        عن ابن عباس في قوله { إني متوفيك ورافعك } يعني رافعك ثم متوفيك في آخر الزمان

        Narrated Az-Zahaak from Ibn Abbas that the verse ‘Inni Mutawaffeka wa rafiuka’ means: “I will raise you to myself then I’ll cause you to die near the End of Times.” (Durr Al-Manthur 2/347)

        It is enough to show that even according to Ibn Abbas’ (RA) view Jesus (PBUH) is alive yet and the verse to him refers only to his death in the End of Times after his descent

        • bravoo hats off to xia ahmad and rationlist

          we have now confirmed that meaning of the MUTAWAFEKA is DEATH

          why on earth u all ulemas followed the path of the jews and tried to change the Meaning of the MUTAWAFEKA .
          why?
          any way read this hadith which , its a long hadith and is from sahih musilim

          فجعل المقام بينه وبين البيت. فكان أبي يقول (ولا أعلمه ذكره إلا عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم): كان يقرأ في الركعتين قل هو الله أحد، وقل يا أيها الكافرون. ثم رجع إلى الركن فاستلمه. ثم خرج من الباب إلى الصفا. فلما دنا من الصفا قرأ: {إن الصفا والمروة من شعائر الله} [2 / البقرة / الآية 158] “أبدأ بما بدأ الله به” فبدأ بالصفا. فرقي عليه. حتى رأى البيت فاستقبل القبلة. فوحد الله، وكبره. وقال:

          the hadith says that when hazrat Muhammad (saw) reached SAFA then he (saw) read the ayyat
          {إن الصفا والمروة من شعائر الله} [2 / البقرة / الآية 158]
          and then said
          “أبدأ بما بدأ الله به
          i shall start from where GOD have started .

          Hazrat Muhamamd (saw) gave the words of the GOD prefernce .
          on which bases u say MUTAFAEKA should come in the end .

          and Ibne abbas did not write the tafseer at all , it is the collection of the narration just like the hadith book

          the real religion of the hazrat Ibne Abbas is quoted in the Best Book after the book of the GOD i.e. Sahe Bukhari
          while it is written that Ibne abbas tafseer is the collection of fabricated narration attributed to the ibne abbas

          now both parties conform that MUTAWEKA have the meaning of the death .

          we shall follow this verdict of the hazrat Muhamamd( saw )
          that is
          “أبدأ بما بدأ الله به

          and will prefer the usage of the MUTAFEKA (cause u to die ) over the RAFEOKA (will raise thee )

          question ..

          will the so called lover of the hazrat Muhammad (saw) and calling themselves true Muslims prefer the hazrat Muhammad (saw) verdict or fabricated narration attributed to hazrat Ibne abbas ?

          • The ulama knew that Jesus was never hung from any structure, they knew that Jesus would physically return. This was the vantage point of the muslims. This was the common data that was in circulation in educated realm of Islam.

            They though that mutawafeeka had an alternate meaning, WHICH IT DOES.

            The ulama were totally correct in what they did. They made no error. The most important message in the case of Jesus was that he wasnt GOD, or the son of GOD, and that he was never hung on the cross, and that he would physically return. His death was irrelevant!!!

            To base an entire religion on the idea that Jesus died is just stupid. We need moral and economic reform! We need to learn to love our children better, we need to learn self-respect…

            We need alot more than, Jesus died and kashmir and 125 and philosophy of the teachings and the will and khalifas and give me more money and prophets, prophets, prophets and give me more money and jalsa, ijtema, tarbiyyat and musleh maud day and all that other nonsense this family keeps talking about.

            WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO—CIRCA 1883

          • if ULEMA knew that Jesus was not hanged on the cross , then from where they knew it ,
            give us the source. is it from quran or hadith or history book ?
            OR
            IT was GOD who told them directly . How come they knew that roof split up and Jesus went to the sky ? how they even knew the name of the man who hanged in place of Jesus.
            how???
            can u shed a light on it ? a question which i have been asking and none of u are willing to answer .

            if some one among them believed that Jesus will return physically then what ??
            When quran is saying he has died , when everywhere in the quran and haidht and literature MUTAWAFEKA had and has been used as the meaning of the death .
            and when quran says categorically that Jesus had died. then how can he return physically back .

            whereas the economic progression and other things are concerned , rest assured u cannot get it . History now will not see YOU guys emerging .
            You are under the wrath of the GOD and will remain under it , no matter how hard u try . It is the promise of the GOD with us that other sect of the islam will be destroyed and it will be the AHMADIYYAT that will progress in future and will rule the world.

            It is the destiny that ur future generation will live like the jews . those who will not accept the prophet hazrat Messiah Maood (as) will remain under the AHMDIES till the day of the judgment .

          • So was the Islam in its early stages insignificant in number, so much so that opponents used to laugh at the new religion.

          • You don’t have a religion. You have a personality cult. In a hundred years, Islam had practically taken over the world. In your first hundred years, you have achieved nothing.

          • Quote: “You don’t have a religion. You have a personality cult. ”

            I can say that to you but why would I. Why would I disrespect other people’s personal faith. I do have a religion and that reeligion is only Islam. Making random comments like a passer-by in a street does not influence me.

            Quote:”n a hundred years, Islam had practically taken over the world. In your first hundred years, you have achieved nothing.”

            Ever religion or revival of religion has its own development. So to say Islam did have great success as a result of Hadhrat Muhammad (SAW) and his four successors – but the rate of increase in success diminished after the rightly guided caliphate came to an end.

            But what do you say of the Prophethood of Jesus(as) – in your opinion is he a right down failure since during his life time the number of his followers were tiny literally tiny in number.

            Infact thank You for reminding me – why is it often said that the second coming is named Jesus – surely there must some similarities as may be in this case.

      • Ibn Abbas said, “When Allah intended to raise Jesus (PBUH) to the heavens, he went to his companions,…Jesus (PBUH) ascended to heaven through an opening in the top of the house.”
        (Ibn Abi Hatim 4/431 Hadith 6266, Ibn Kathir 2/449. Ibn Kathir called it Sahih)

        • Really very funny

          hazrat Ibne abbas even knew that GOD did not asked hazrat essa (as) to come in the open sky , rather took him (as) to the sky by opening the Roof.

          show a little light that how hazrat Ibne abbas (rz) came to know this .

          was GOD directly talked to him and told him the account of that day ?

          if not then was it written in quran ? which we all know not written .
          if not then did hazrat Muhammad (saw) told hazrat Ibne Abbas this story?
          if yest then show us that hadith ..

          come on XIA defend the hazrat Ibne abbas (rz) tafseer

          note: i do not belive that this narration is authentic. hazrat Ibne Abbas believed in the death of the hazrat Essa (as) and it is written in the best book of after quran i.e Bukhari.
          it was a pure fabrication on the pious hazrat Ibne abbas

          • Khalid: Allah will have to work with you, humans cant handle you.

            Ibn Abbas got his knowledge from the HP and the sahaba, he was a well known scholar. Ibn Abbas knew Islam inside and out, what he said mattered in terms of islamic rulings, at least in my opinion.

            It is the responsibility of the ahamdis to show us evidence where some early mujadids and muffassirs sanctioned for a spiritual return. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT.

            Tell masroor that he needs to do some research and find some islamic scholars who wrote that Jesus WOULDNT physically return. No more urdu classes! No more wild partying.

            Tell Masroor to put the beer down!!!

            I WAS A VICTIM, NOW I AM A MUSLIM!!

          • [Note from admin: Please keep your comments short.]

            can i learn to whom u refer when u say HP ? is it Holy Prophet (saw)? if yes the i request to write full name .
            that’s my point dear, if the hazrat Ibne abas got this knowledge from the hadith , then where is that hadith. ???
            hadiths are reported about the coming of the Jesus , but not a single hadith is reported any where regarding the ascension of the hazrat Essa (as) to the sky in a manner Hazrat Ibne abas (rz) is quoted.
            There are many hadiths which all of u proudly reject on the base of unreliable narrators.
            if narrators could attribute lie to the hazrat Muhammad (saw) then hazrat Ibne abbas (as) was not exception . True religion of the Hazrat Iben abas is listed in Bukhari and that is fo the death of the Hazrat Essa (as)
            there are but few ways hazrat Ibne Abas (rz) could have got the knowledge
            1) From quran , which is silent
            2) From hazrat Muhammad (saw) , why then there is no mention of the single hadith over this topic in the thousands of the hadith
            3) A direct communication from the GOD . no where he (rz) listed this reason
            4 ) from historical evidence . History tells the jesus (as) was put on the cross and was seen after few day of crucifixion and then disappear from that area. Sighting of Jesus after few days is a proof that he (as) survived the crucifixion. And was not went to the sky before he (as) was put . His show of wounds to his discipline proves that it was He (as) who was put on the cross and not someone else.

            Quesiotn will always remain due on u that how did the ibne abas (rz ) or any other person got the knowledge of physical ascension of the jesus to the sky .
            When the source of the knowledge is not certain then on which bases you say that they all believed such and such so we should believe such and such .
            above is a fundamental point which u have totally ignore

            i quoted an ayyat which states that

            “We have never heard of such a thing among our forefathers.”
            [23:25]

            so do not just kept saying that Past ulema believed this and that .
            Merely their believe cannot prove that those believes were right and were in accordance with the true quranic teaching.
            u said
            “It is the responsibility of the ahamdis to show us evidence where some early mujadids and muffassirs sanctioned for a spiritual return. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT. ”

            my answer.

            why ? when we prove his spiritual return from quran and hadith then why would we need the corroboration of the old mufassaren . When they became authority?They did lot of good work . but better do not make their own believes an authority .
            IF u read the tafseer u will come to know different views
            some says , hazrat Essa (as) died for some time then went to the sky .
            then some says NO after his return he will die
            when they themselves do not agree on one thing, then on which ground we should accept one thing over other. this also shows that these believes were just their own views .
            Presenting those views which do not coincided with each other and then asking the people to believe in them blindly is nonsense.

            but this does not mean that no mufasar did not mentioned his spiritual return .
            alama razi
            http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=4&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=55&tDisplay=yes&Page=3&Size=1&LanguageId=1

            واعلم أن هذه الآية تدل على أن رفعه في قوله { وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ } هو الرفعة بالدرجة والمنقبة، لا بالمكان والجهة، كما أن الفوقية في هذه ليست بالمكان بل بالدرجة والرفع
            Above passages says that RAFFA of the hazrat Essa (as) is not physical at all , but it is the elevation in rank and honor
            What you say Now ? is not it a dent on the theory of unanimous physical ascension theory ?
            Spiritual return :
            Ibne Arabi wrote in his tafseer
            http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=33&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=158&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1
            . وكونه في السماء الرابعة إشارة إلى أن مصدر فيضان روحه روحانية تلك الشمس الذي هو بمثابة قلب العالم ومرجعه إليه وتلك الروحانية نور يحرّك ذلك الفلك بمعشوقيته وإشراق أشعته على نفسه المباشرة لتحريكه ولما كان مرجعه غلى مقرّه الأصليّ ولم يصل إلى الكمال الحقيقيّ وجب نزوله في آخر الزمان، بتعلّقه ببدن آخر وحينئذ يعرفه كل

            … (Tough Arabic cannot translate all the passage , just an overview of what I have understood )
            Raffa of the hazrat essa (as ) is the connection of his soul . … his soul (or spirituality ) have not perfected and it is destined that he will return but in some other body .

            This is what we mean that Physically Jesus will not return , but some one like him , having the similarity with the soul of the Jesus will return

            Now this is another dent in the unanimous PHYSICAL RETURN .

      • We dont ignore the holy book you half wit. We follow the classical interpretations that have been given to us from Ibn Abbas, Suyuti, Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Arabi, shah wali ullah, etc etc etc.

        You follw new interpretations as spewed by MGA and his sons. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO COMPREHEND.

        In terms of your other utterances, I have answered them over 10 times.

        1. Even if jesus died, like maliki inferred, he was still never on any cross, and he will physically return.

        2. The idea that Jesus died didnt even put a dent into christianity. MGA’s idea failed.

        WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO–CIRCA 1883

        • XIAAHMED: thanks for showing me this info.

          Can you provide the tafsir that you quote, I would like to read it on the net.

          thank you sir.

          WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO—CIRCA 1883

        • now rationlist in the name of following the classical interpretation u are doing what all the opponents have done with the prophets

          And the chiefs of his people, who disbelieved, said, ‘He is only a man like yourselves; he seeks to make himself superior to you. And if Allah had so willed, He could have surely sent down angels with him. We have never heard of such a thing among our forefathers.”
          [23:25]

          re read this part
          ” We have never heard of such a thing among our forefathers”

          so do not come and tell us that ur classical Mufassaren failed to write it.
          they all did great Job in their respective time . but their interpretation is the final authority .
          quranic knowledge did not ended on them at all .

          • sorry my mistake read second last line as ..
            their interpretation is not the final authority .

          • An inteligent individual does the research! The research shows that muslims have held the belief that Jesus was never on the cross and he would physically return since the first 50 years of Islam, or circa ibn abbas. Yes, they did differ on his death but not on the two other issues as metioned above.

            100 years after MGA presented his theory–muslims aint buying it!!!

          • their differnce over the death shows that they did not have the PERFECT knowledge , so we should not give their view importance at all,
            am i right rationalist ?

  11. @ khalid nawaz or whatever alternate ego you are using today…

    1. Show me one islamic scholar (mujadid or mufassir) before sir syed who said that Jesus would NOT physically return.

    2. Show me one islamic scholar (mujadid or mufassir) before sir syed who said that Jesus WAS ACTUALLY ON THE CROSS.

    These are the issues that this thread highlighted. Because of the fact that you are mentally challenged you have failed to comprehend the points herein.

    Once again, even if mutawafeeka means death, that doesnt change the return of Jesus to spiritual, nor does it change the fact that Jesus was never on the cross.

    • @rationalist
      ohh again the same rhetoric . same emotionality.

      GOD told us that this was the way people fought with the prophets
      they used to say this thing again and again
      i quoted an ayyat which states that

      “We have never heard of such a thing among our forefathers.”
      [23:25]

      so what if ur ancestor did not reach this thing ? so what if none of them wrote what we have showed and proved from quran and history . so what……..

      but see my previous post in which Ibne arabi have wrote clearly that Jesus will return in someone else body ? this is the called the BAROOZ .and return if the return of the sprituality and not the physical return .

      also do read this

      # الرابع: ويقول صاحب فتح البيان في تفسير الآية المذكورة آنفاً:
      “والحاصل أن موته صلى الله عليه وسلم أو قتله لا يوجب ضعفاً في دينه ولا الرجوع عنه بدليل موت سائر الأنبياء قبله.”
      ثم يضيف:
      “ففي زاد المعاد للحافظ ابن القيم رحمه الله تعالى: ما يُذكر أنّ عيسى رُفع وهو ابن ثلاث وثلاثين سنة لا يُعرف به أثر متصل يجب المصير إليه. قال الشامي: وهو كما قال، فإنّ ذلك إنما يروى عن النصارى.”
      (فتح البيان في مقاصد القرآن لأبي الطيب البخاري، الجزء الثاني ص 346 – 347 المكتبة العصرية بيروت 1992م)
      Hafiz ibne ul qiyum stated that those who believe in teh bodily ascension of the Jesus at the age of 33 believes in unreliable narrations and these things enter in islam from Christianity

      • What you fail to understand is this:

        Ahmadis believe that all muslims believed Jesus to be dead and his return was to be physical, and that he was in fact on the cross, circa the death of the prophet. THIS IS THE AHMADI BELIEF!!!!

        I am saying that you should show us some hard evidence from the first 100 years of Islam to support this view. Show us some tafsirs from that era which reflect your view.

        Who is Ibne ul qiyum??? I have never heard of this guy.

        As far as ibn arabi is concerned I would need to read thebook that you quote from. Ahmadis have already been caught lying in terms of prophethood and Ibn Arabi. Farhan owned the ahmadis in that battle. Why should I believe the ahmadis in this case?

        I think I read a reference in some pocketbook that your clan published, i will have to double check that.

        Let us know when the muslim corrupted th view of Jesus. Was it 100 years after the HP died? Was it 50? Who was th author of this belief?

        Good luck……….

        WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO—CIRCA 1883

        • QUOTE “Ahmadis believe that ALL muslims believed Jesus to be dead and his return was to be physical,”

          Incorrect details.

          • At the death of the HP, you half wit!!

            This is the ahmadi belief.

            Then you guys say that this belief was corrupted.

            But where is the evidence of corruption?

        • Ohh come one , what farhan did with the Ibne arabi statement I know .
          i wonder on the intellectual power which was used to save the day . because at the end , farhan proved ahmdiyyat point perfectly legal . wanna learn the more ?

          i gave the link of the Ibne arabi statment as well , check it again

          Dent have been produce in ur so called theory that every one believe in Physical ascension and every one believed in Physical return .

          now lick the wounds .

  12. admin
    why my comments are deleted,
    i know liars cant face the truth, truth of Holy Book, truth of Hadith,
    put a label on this website that truth is not allowed!

  13. admin
    sham for you, only lies are allowed but truth is not allowed
    why
    if you find any lie in my comment, plz expose it, but
    dont delete my comments,

    Note from Admin: You submitted a 5-part essay in the comments section. Your comments, no matter how poorly written, are allowed through, but this blog is not a forum for you to submit long essays. That constitutes an abuse of your privileges here and disrupts the comments for other readers. It is borderline spam. If you have articles, you are free to point to your own website where they may be freely hosted.

    Second, it is frankly absurd, hypocritical and churlish for you to criticise the admin for enforcing rules that facilitate a comfortable environment for all readers, whilst all of your previous comments have been allowed, especially given the free-speech-attacking exploits of the cult that you represent, specifically, in serving DMCA notices on YouTube and closing down your own forums.

    Finally, If you attack the admin again, you will simply be banned. Footballers get booked for dissent. Consider this a booking. Another booking and you will get sent off.

  14. @admin

    glad you did some housekeeping by removing those stupid essays. mirzais always abuse, whether it is social security or blog space. they lie. they cheat. they never give straight answers to our questions even when presented with scans of original writing from mirza kazzab. why not initiate a pledge from every mirzai: “by yalash, i will refrain from spamming and answer all questions to the best of my knowledge as imparted by mirza kazzab qadiani.”

  15. He is a Sign of the Hour. Have no doubt about it. But follow me. This is a straight path. (The Holy Qur’an, Chapter 43, Verse 61)

    Tafsir Jalalyan
    { وَإِنَّهُ لَعِلْمٌ لِّلسَّاعَةِ فَلاَ تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَٱتَّبِعُونِ هَـٰذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ }
    And indeed he, that is, Jesus, is a portent of the Hour — [the arrival of] it is known by the sending down of him — so do not doubt it

    Tafsir IBn Abbas
    (And lo! Verily) in the coming of Jesus the son of Mary (there is knowledge of the Hour) there is an indication of the coming of the Hour; it is also said that this means: his coming is a sign of the advent of the Hour.

    Ibn Juzayy says that the first meaning of this verse is that Jesus (pbuh) is a sign or a precondition of the Last Hour. We can say that this verse is a clear indication that Jesus (pbuh) will come back to earth at the end times.

    Jabir b. ‘Abdullah reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims’) commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honour from Allah for this Ummah.

  16. the ibn abbas narration that qadianis want to quote has been replied as well and thing is there is no chain of narration even mentioned

    Alam Alunsalasi wrote:

    Because of Mutwatar Hadith Ummah has Ijmah on that ISA(AS) will descend from sky and he will descend near end of times

    حدثنا ابن المثنى، قال: ثنا ابن أبي عديّ، عن شعبة، عن عاصم، عن أبي رزين، عن ابن عباس بمثله، إلا أنه قال: نزول عيسى بن مريم.

    ibn almuthanna narrated that ibn aby ‘uddi narrated from shu’bah from ‘asim from abu zain, from ibn abbas that he (ibn abbas) narrated the same thing, except that he said ” the descending(coming) of isa ibn maryam”

  17. Imam Abu Hanifa one of the greatest scholor of Islam said:

    The emergence of the Dajjal and of Gog and Magog is a reality; the rising of the sun in the West is a reality; the descent of Jesus, upon whom be peace, from the heavens is a reality; and all the other signs of the Day of Resurrection, as contained in authentic traditions, are also established realities. Al-Fiqh al-Akbar

    Imam al-Safarini expresses that

    The entire ummah (Muslim community) has agreed on the issue that Prophet Jesus (pbuh), the son of Maryam, will return. There is no one from the people who follow Muslim laws who oppose this issue

    Islamic scholar Sayyid Mahmud Alusi:
    Gives examples from the views of other Islamic scholars and explains that the Islamic community has reached to a consensus regarding Prophet Jesus’ (pbuh) second coming

    Even according to Imam Syuti:
    Denying Descend of jesus or denying his prophethood both is kuffar

  18. @admin
    i can do the same , instead of answering to any question of any person , i can put so much stuff that in the recent comments section only my name will be visible.
    so better ask XIA , instead of overwhelming one thing answer to the question of the other person. Which, being a child he cannot do .

    [Note from admin: There is a freedom to comment here, but this can cause problems if people are tracking the “Recent Comments” section. Without wishing to discourage repeated posting here, the appropriate place for detailed discussion is the forum. However, a more appropriate solution might be to have a feature that allows commenters on the blog to see more of the recent comments]

  19. Khalid… are u like 10 years old? You sure act like it!

    Did you use the “masroor starter kit” when you use the internet?

    Page 7, Masroor starter kit—“Remember, dont answer any of the questions that are posed at us.”

    • ohh i did not answer ur question ? then who dig down the tafseers and showed u ,ur wrong assertion that every one believed in the physical ascension and return of Hazrat Essa (as).
      was it my ghost ?

      • I dont even understand your question, you 12 year old.

        Does Masroor pay you to post here? Oh wait, you pay him to be in his organization.

        Do you even understand the concept of “research of relevant literature”. This is how intelligent people study.

        Todd Lawson has given us valuable research data in terms of Jesus and the tafseers of the early muslims.

        All of these early muslims unaniously believed that:

        1. jesus would return physically
        2. jesus was never hung on any structure

        His death was inconsquential.

        Ibn Arabi believed that Jesus’ soul would return in a new body, but the nuzool was physical, just a new body, the ruh would be the same.

        Maliki wrote that Jesus would return as a non-prophet. Why dont ahmadis believe that? This is another issue which is non-consequential.

        That is what ahmadis dont understand, most of these issues that they dwell on are non-important. Muslims need to focus on 6 articles of faith and the 5 pillars of Islam.

        Jesus’ return is not mentioned in the Quran, thus the matter is non-consequential. To spend hours to dwelling on is not very important.

        • Quote:”Jesus’ return is not mentioned in the Quran, thus the matter is non-consequential. To spend hours to dwelling on is not very important.”

          In the Quran there is an indication to the second coming of Jesus which can only be understood if taken spiritually and metaphorically rather than literally:

          “He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;”(62:3)

          ” And among others from among them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.”(62:4)

          Here ‘And among others’ can better put as ‘And He will raise him among others’ because the second verse is in reference to the previous one, to in one sense repeat the ‘raising’ of the messenger to those people who have ‘not yet joined them’. This can only mean to the second coming of Hadhrat Muhammad(saw) in the latter days, only in the sense that the same faith that Hadhrat Muhammad(saw) bought will be revived if taken metaphorically.

          This is supported by the following Hadith of Bukhari:

          Hadhrat Abu Hurrarah nurrates:
          “When Surah Jumah was reavealed to the Holy Prophet(saw), we happened to be their in his company. When he recited the verse ‘And among others from among them who have not yet joined them’, one of those present asked, who are those o messanger of Allah? The Holy Prophet did not pay any attention.The man repeated the question two or three times. At that time Salman, the Persian was also sitting among us. The Holy Prophet(saw) turned to him, placed his hand on him, and said even if faith ascended to the Pleides, there would be one man from his peoplewho would restore faith back to earth.”

          Here it is evident that it is not Holy Prophet(saw) who would come again to earth but another person in his name, i.e. a person who would revive the faith that Hadhrat Muhammad(saw) taught.

          As you said:
          “Jesus’ return is not mentioned in the Quran, thus the matter is non-consequential.”

          This would only seem non-consequential to those who expect the return of Jesus in the physical form for which there is indeed no mention nor any indication of his coming. But for those who understand the second coming of Jesus to be metaphorical – it is mentioned in the Quran.

          Thus it is indeed relevant. And why would it not be relevant generally speaking. Look at the status of Muslims, they are fighting each other, individually, nationally and internationally, they have forgotten the true Islamic principles of Peace. A muslim is not same from anotther. Indeed a a reformer is needed to reform the Muslims these days – so how can you argue that it is irrelevant.

          • ” A muslim is not same from anotther.”

            This is meant to read, a muslim is not safe from another.

          • I wrote about this episode that you quote. See out of context vol. 4. It is not ready as of yet.

            MGA twisted this verse to make it seem like it means something that it doesnt.

            This verse(62:3) was about the non-arabs who were converting to Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. Salman Farsi was the only non-arab who was sitting with HP at the time. The HP said: “If faith was to reach the 7th heaven, even they can attain it”

            Which means, if faith became unreachable, even then the non-arabs would still be able to reach it. Islam was for everyone, not just the arabs.

            You should watch Akber Chaudry on IQRA, he explained this verse beautifully.

            LO NA LA WHO, means, “even they can attain it”.

            MGA tried to make it mean, “they (or he) will bring it back”. THIS IS A FARCE!!!!!!!!

            This was MGA’s first attempt to twist Quranic verse to fit his vain desires. He got a revelation in 1883 or where Yalesh explained that he would revive the faith.

            Why not shah wali ullah, or syed ahmad barelvi, they were of persian descent….

            Please..these games are old at this point!

            WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO!–CIRCA 1883

  20. ‘You sound like a complete nutter. Thank God a dangerous cult like you is so insignificant!’

    So why have you created so many hate videos, this website and others ?

    Im pretty sure we are more than a little insignificant for you to go through all that effort

    • Here is the reason:

      Ahmadiyyat is a business that was created out of a financial crisis that MGA found himself in. MGA was a lazy rich kid from India who was totally worthless. When his father died, that pension money dissappeared.

      MGA didnt have enough money to publish his own books, he asked for outside help because he didnt want to pay to get the braheen published. He received so much money that he was able to get married (1884 or 1885), and support children.

      Then he got noorudin to move to qadian and work for him for free. MGA made billions. His sons took this business to the next level. Nasir Ahmad was able to go to Oxford….etc etc

      Someone should check the records at Oxford university, I doubt that Nasir ahmad was able to graduate from there. I dont think he ever did 1 speech in english. Im sure he never wrote a book in english.

      Do you want any more info on why this site exists?

    • If you ever refer to what we do as “hate videos” or “hate speech” again, you will be banned, permanently.

      It’s simple. Mirzology is a cult. Many of us who know about Mirzology want to help people out of this scam. Thanks to Allah (SWT) blessing our efforts, many have left and reverted to Islam. Every single soul is precious. That’s why we do it.

      If you call that hatred, you must be drinking the same tonic wine that your prophet did.

    • Well said Ahmad,

      On one side they (owners of this website) say that we are insignificant and on the other side they spending a large part of their time.

      • Ahmadiyya is certainly insignificant in terms of the bigger picture of deviants, but as I said, every soul is valuable. Even yours. That’s worth spending time on. It bears fruit, alhamdulillah.

  21. @admin , so u did not allowed my comments . This was not the way for a TRUE MUSLIM .Good bye

    [Note from admin: If you break the rules, you lose the comment. It’s very simple. You have more freedom of speech on this forum and blog than on your own official sites. Furthermore, your endless spam constitutes the majority of comments on recent posts, so your childish impudence doesn’t serve you. You have been warned before, as have others. Overly long comments are simply not allowed. Only one of yoru comments was deleted and there was nothing in there that you hadn’t said many times before.]

  22. Pingback: The Crucifixion Of Christ - God's Amazing Grace

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