Takfīr – Declaring others Kāfir

Bismillah,

This is one of the most touchy topics between Muslims and Ahmadis, inspiring the most enmity and ill-feelings between the two religions. But, I think that this important topic that should be discussed in a civil, respectful yet firm manor.

First, a definition. Roughly speaking, Takfīr (تكفير) means to declare someone not a Muslim. This dangerous task is only done to save the Muslims from falling into deviant or otherwise corrupted interpretations of Islam which would render them non-Muslims.

I do not call individual Ahmadis kāfir. I never have and, in sha Allah, I never will. The reason I do not is because I personally know Ahmadis who are only Ahmadi by-name, but in reality they are Muslims. They only bear the title “Ahmadi” because they were born into the faith. I do not claim to know what is in the hearts of Ahmadis. Instead, I declare the religion itself to be Kufr. Meaning, the religion Ahmadiyya is not Islam. I judge the religion, not the individual adherent of the religion. This is why we call Ahmadis from Ahmadiyya and to Islam.

Lets compare this to the writings of Mirza Bashir-ud-Deen Mahmood Ahmad, the second “khalifah” of Ahmadiyya. In his book The Truth about the Split, he wrote about the issue of Takfīr. The following are three quotes, starting from his highly questionable quote moving to his most extreme declaration.

On page 74 of the book, he wrote:

Now, as we hold that the revelation which came to the Promised Messiah are such that their acceptance is obligatory on mankind in general, to us, the man who rejects the Promised Messiah is a kafir agreeably to the teachings of the Holy Quran, although he may well be a believer in all the other truths of religion because the presence even of one of the necessary conditions of Kufr is sufficient to make a man kafir.

In this quote, Mahmood Ahmad declares Muslims who do not believe Mirza Ghulam is the Maseeh as kaafirs. Now consider the following quote. On page 162, he wrote:

Then in my own words. I summarised the purport of the quotations as follows: “Thus, according to these quotations, not only are those deemed to be kuffar, who openly style the Promised Messiah as kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiahas to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai‘at, have here been adjudged to be kuffar.

In this quote, Mahmood Ahmad re-declares Muslims to be kufār, but then takes the additional step to even declare those Ahmadis who have not formally given him the Bay’ah (pledge) are not Muslims. This quote is more aggressive. Lets now look at the most extreme quote. On page 70, he wrote:

These changes, according to Maulawi Muhammad Ali, relate to three matters; … (3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah.

In this most extreme statement, Mahmood Ahmad declares 1.2 billion Muslims to be kufār, even if they have not heard the name Mirza Ghulam. Ironically, most Ahmadis become upset that the religion itself has been declared a separate religion, distinct and unique from Islam.

(There are other statements of this nature by Mirza Ghulam himself, but I’ll save those for another post)

To my Ahmadi readers, do not accept this aggressive declaration of Kufr from those whom you invest your faith in. Instead, leave this false prophet and his misguidance and embrace the traditional path of Islam. Islam is in your blood, take back what Mirza Ghulam stole from you. I would be honored to call you my brother- not in Ahmadiyya- but in Islam.

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152 thoughts on “Takfīr – Declaring others Kāfir

    • You play time-wasting games and you strive for confusion (a trait of Satan, the deceiver), not clarity. Would it bother you to actually address the substance of a post for once Lutf? Do you agree with Mirza Mahmud’s last statement quoted in the post, where he left no doubt about what he meant?

  1. Well, if you see at the last quotation it indeed raises the question on the portion “are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam”. In practice Ahmadis do not consider non-ahmadis as non-muslims, and such selective quotes are taken from a wider discussion revolving around related matters. So you can interpret them as clear fatwa of non-islam of the rejectors. This is not the case as you can see from the detailed quotes below. Here the Kufr is described as that of “mamur minAllah”. Such Kufr does not make anyone non-muslim.. The “pale of Islam” here is the true islam as intended by Allah Almighty rather than the nominal/political/social Islam practiced all around the world. In this sense, yes, all those who do not believe in Promised Messiah (as) are outside the pale of “true” Islam.

    The Question: Pages 61-62 The Truth about split:

    As for the question of Kufr (unbelief) of non-Ahmadi Muslims, my belief is that Kufr really arises from a denial of God. Hence, whenever there comes any revelation from God of such a nature that its acceptance is obligatory on every man, a rejection of the same leads to Kufr. Belief in such a revelation, however, presupposes belief in the bearer of the revelation. Hence it follows that a belief in the bearer of such revelation is a necessary part of one’s faith. The man who rejects a Prophet thus necessarily becomes a kafir, not because he denies the truth of any particular Prophet X or Y, but such denial will necessarily lead him to reject a revelation of God. To me, the Kufr which arises from the denial of any Nabi has its basis in this principle and not in any personal quality of the Nabi. And inasmuch as the revelation of which the acceptance is obligatory on mankind comes only through Prophets, it is the rejection of such recipients of Divine revelation, and not of others that leads to unbelief. Now, as we hold that the revelation which came to the Promised Messiahas are such that their acceptance is obligatory on mankind in general, to us, the man who rejects the Promised Messiahas is a kafir agreeably to the teachings of the Holy Quran, although he may well be a believer in all the other truths of religion because the presence even of one of the necessary conditions of Kufr is sufficient to make a man kafir. I may however add that in my opinion Kufr arises from a denial of one or more of the fundamental articles of religion, not because such a denial makes a man the object of unending punishment, but because the denial makes him guilty of rebellion against God and leads to the extinction of his spiritual life. Now, as Islam bases its judgments
    upon what is patent and not upon what is possible, it cannot but class as kafir such as fail to accept any of the Prophets, even though such failure may be due to their want of information concerning him. In the latter case, they will not, of course, be the objects of Divine punishment. The denial would be due to causes altogether beyond their control. It is in accordance with the same principle that Muslims have so long with one accord designated as kuffar all those who have not accepted the faith of Islam, without taking into consideration the question whether or not such failure is occasioned by want of adequate information concerning the Holy Prophetsa. And the doctor is yet to be born who will class in the category of Muslims the Esquimaux of the North Pole, the Red Indians of America, the Hottentots of Africa or the Maoris of Australia, or those millions of Christians, who living in central Europe or in other out of the way places have not yet heard anything regarding the teachings of the Holy Prophetsa.

    Expalnation Pages 146-148

    Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiahas to be one of the Prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims. It is true we did not consider them to be kafir billah, (deniers of God), but how could we doubt that, they were kafir-bil-ma’mur (deniers of a God’s Messenger)? Those who say that they regarded Mirza Sahib as a righteous person and so did not deserve to be called kuffar, ought to consider whether a righteous person ever spoke an untruth. If Mirza Sahibas, was indeed a righteous person, what possible objection could there be to their subscribing to his claim. After this, the article proceeded to quote passages from the writings of the Promised Messiahas to show that he regarded his deniers as kuffar. Some of the passages, quoted in the article, are reproduced here in brief: To the apostate Abdul Hakim of Patiala, he wrote: “At any rate, when the great God has revealed to me that every body whom my Call has reached and who has failed to accept my claim, is not a muslim, and is liable to account before God, how can I at the instance of one individual, whose heart is steeped in a thousand darknesses, ignore the command of God. It is easier to cut off such a one from my Community. Accordingly from this date I hereby exclude you from the Community of my followers.”
    Following this, I proceeded to explain the purport of the above passage in the following words. “The above words apply not merely to those who take an active part in renouncing the Promised Messiahas; but every person who fails to accept him is not a Muslim. Further on, I explained, in the words of the Promised Messiahas himself, the meaning he attached to the expression “reaching of Call.” This was that the Promised Messiahas had made his Call reach every part of the globe, and hence the whole world might be said to have received his Call. It was unnecessary for this purpose that the information should be carried separately to each individual. After this, I went on to prove from the
    writings of the Promised Messiahas that those who did not explicitly style the Promised Messiahas as a kafir but nor did they accept his claim, were to be classed with those who styled him as a kafir; so also were those who only waited for fuller information and put off entering into his Bai‘at. Then in my own words I summarised the purport of the quotations as follows: “Thus, according to these quotations, not only are those deemed to be kuffar, who openly style the Promised Messiahas as kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiahas to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai‘at, have here been adjudged to be kuffar.” After this, some more quotations were given in support of the main contention, and the weakness implicit in the overture for friendship was exposed, and the Promised Messiah’sas fatwa (pronouncement) which forbade Ahmadis to pray behind non-Ahmadi Imams was quoted. And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiahas as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues,were yet veritable kuffar.

    • isn’t it kinda pointless to say outside the pale of true islam? so then the ghair-ahmadis are inside the pale of false islam? false islam isn’t islam.

      i can see how you would try to deny his statement’s apparent meaning. it’s unsettling. growing up you thought you were the only victims of takfir only to find out that ahmadis are also takfiri. this double standard is upsetting and you feel like you’ve been deceived by murabbiyaan into believing that ahmadis are loving people who never make takfir. knowing that the population of your muslim brothers has shrunk to “tens of millions” surely sucks.

      however i think his statement makes perfect sense. if you disbelieve in a prophet, you’ve disbelieved in allah. i mean they don’t deny allah altogether. but they deny the allah of ahmadiyyah. the ahmadi god is different than the sunni god. the ahmadi god is more christian, he loves everybody and is not the creator of evil. also he communicates with people after muhammad sal allahu alayhi wa sallem. i’ve heard ahmadis say that they believe in a living god who continues to send wahi. whereas other muslims don’t believe in the wahi part.

      therefore denying a prophet is pretty much denying allah because that prophet renews tawheed and purifies it from the innovations of the people. the supposed innovation in this case is the end of wahi. ghair-ahmadis also deny yalesh.

      for example, christians believe in allah but by denying muhammad, they’re denying the god of muhammad described in surat ul-ikhlas. therefore they are kuffar.

      it’s hard to swallow because making takfir sucks and it seems hypocritical because ahmadis are always preaching about how takfir is wrong. but it actually makes full sense. ahmadis don’t really need to answer to anything here.

  2. Lutf gave the response which is found in Qazi Muhammad Nazir’s book, “Truth Prevails”. —the argument that this guy gave is absurd. Nazir didnt answer the question in totality, as is the ahmadiyya modus operandi.

    The story of calling other muslims Kufr started in 1911 by Mahmud Ahmad, it didnt really start with MGA, at least not directly.

    In 1911 Mahmud Ahmad wrote a tract in his magazine in which he declared that the muslims who hadn’t accepted MGA were kafir, Noorudin was very much concerned with this paper, Noorudin delayed its publication, then there were other issues, finally it was printed.

    When Kwaja Kamalludin and others read the issue of “tashizazul adhan” (mahmud’s newspaper) they were concerned. Kamalludin immediately wrote a tract in which he wrote that Mahmud only meant Kufr in the literal sense of the word. Noorudin signed it.

    Here is what Mahmud had to say about the clarification of Kamaluudin:

    http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Truth-about-the-Split.pdf

    149/430

    “In this announcement it was explained that my article could be accepted only if it was interpreted as meaning “that those who did not accept the Promised Messiahas were only deniers of, or unbelievers in the Promised Messiahas and not actually outside the pale of Islam.”

    and

    “The gist of Khwaja Kamaluddin’s article, reproduced by Maulawi Muhammad Ali, is so devoid of sense that it can hardly fail to surprise the intelligent reader. What sense can there be in the statement that those who did not accept the Promised Messiahas were deniers of the Promised Messiahas? Can anybody in his senses think it possible that one might not accept the Promised Messiahas and yet be a believer in the Promised Messiahas? If this and nothing more, was to be understood by my article, was not my article a piece of sheer inanity, and, in that case, was not the action of the Khalifatul Masihra in correcting it and sanctioning its publication something still less complimentary? To say therefore that the Khalifatul Masihra permitted the publication of my article because he understood it in the sense quoted by Khwaja Kamaluddin, is something
    altogether without foundation, and constitutes in itself a refutation of Maulawi Muhammad Ali’s contention.”

    The LAM have fought the qadianis for years on this very topic
    see: http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm

    DO I EVEN HAVE TO SHOW WHAT MAHMUD AHMAD SAID IN 1954??

    I mean, c’mon guys, you lose very hard on this one.
    I think Malcolm X said it best, “we been hoodwinked”..come back to Islam.

    • So lutf………..

      why did Mahmud Ahmad and muhammad Ali+kalamaauudin argue over this topic???

      Why were they arguing if their beliefs were the same to begin with???

      Do you see the problem here???

      WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO–CIRCA 1883

  3. It is obvious that Mahmud Ahmad and his brothers called muslims as Kafirs in terms of Islamic Law from 1911 to 1922, after 1922 they began to move away from this ideology. I think they saw it as a hindrance to getting new converts, i.e. more money.

    Aenas sadaqat was written and published in 1922, after this book the qadianis were silent on this topic for 40 years.

    IN 1954, when the riots happened, after the muslims had taken control of pakistan, THE AHAMDIYYAS WERE NOW ON TRIAL.

    Mahmad lied in court, Mahmud recanted his statements in terms of Kufr, he now said that he only meant Kufr in the arabic sense of the word. Ironically, this is the LAM position, this was the position of Muhammad Ali and Kamaluudddin.

    The actual answers given at the court were as under:

    Q. “Do you include Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib among the mamurs (appointed by God) whose acknowledgement is necessary to be called a Muslim?”
    A. “I have already answered this question. No one who does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib can be taken as out of the pail of Islam.”
    Q. You have now stated that if one honestly does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, even then he remains a Muslim. Is it your belief from the very beginning?
    A. Yes.

    Q. When the use of word ‘kufr’ is likely to generate misunderstanding and bitterness, will it not be better either to drop its use or use it sparingly?
    A. We have been trying to use it sparingly since 1922.

    WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO—CIRCA 1883

  4. Br. Lutf, forget about me for a moment, be honest with yourself.

    That man plainly called all Muslims kaafir. I am confident that your heart is far too clean to accept this kind of nonsense. We invite you to be our brother in this beautiful Deen. Leave Ahmadiyya and embrace Islam.

    • Mirza Mahmud was unequivocal and you are trying to twist what he said. He called us kaafirs and outside the pale of Islam, leaving no room for doubt. By your definition, he said we had no faith and we were non-Muslims.

      You yourself once told me that I was following a dead and Satanic religion, so your position is utterly clear.

    • Yah, I agree with Br. Shahid. If one alters the interpretation of the statements of Mirza Bashir-ud-Deen, what is Ahmadiyya based off of?

      Lutf, rather than responding, search your own heart. Do you really believe this to be the Truth? May Allah give you the best in this world and the next.

    • I prefer this type of mutual prayer, one that asks for guidance for others, the kind of prayer offered by Rasulullah (saw) than the kind offered by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, where he invited destruction others and himself.

    • Lutf, please consider this:

      Islam is 1431~ years old, not 100 years old. When someone says “Ahmadiyyat is the True Islam”, its implies that Islam has been wrong or at incomplete for all this time and that this new version is the correct version.

      We don’t call you to some new religion that we recently invented, we call you to the original Islam- a name that requires no qualifiers.

      May Allah unite us in brotherhood.

      • If there is nothing “wrong” with Islam, then please tell me if RusoolAllah (saw) taught his followers to kill infidels and apostates? Did he bring a flawed Quran in which 600 verses are abrogated? Did he teach his followers to be rebellious and arrogant? Did he teach his followers to keep quarelling about minute differences of opinions and issue takfir on each other?

        The answer to all these questions is ofcourse, that he did not. And that is why a reformer was prophecised to remind people of the true majesty and quality of Islam. I follow that Islam.

        • Multiple false premises, but the most blatant is you equating Islam with anything you perceive to be wrong with some Muslims today. Mirza brought nothing of value and failed to “reform” Muslims or Islam. Rather, he created a new religion and condemned his followers to misguidance.

        • Essentially, what you are saying is that everything that you perceive wrong in the Muslim world is the actual expression of traditional Islam, whereas anything thats good stems from Ahmadiyya. I’m sure you see what’s wrong with this.

          Brother, I urge you to visit a traditional Masjid, and see for yourself what we are like.

  5. Shahid, Promised Messiah (as) prayed for the guidance of all.. not once, or twice, but at hundreds of occasions. You can only read his books to find this out. If you wish to see only his exchanges with enemies of islam and mubahila challenges with the leaders of rejectors, to find flaws in Ahmadiyyat then its your choice.

    • Sure, I don’t doubt it for a minute. That’s not the point though my friend. Prophets maintain standards that you or I could never meet. He often prayed for doom and destruction. He often cursed others.

      Mirza Ghulam Ahmad didn’t just fail to reach the noble standards of any prophet by a country mile, but his mind is laid bare through his obsession with prophecies of doom, death, money, birth of sons and marriage to Muhammadi Begum that never happened, neither here nor in the heavens. Tadhkirah is your movement’s collection of wahi. It is replete with such things. I look in there to see what he brought. Confusion, and misguidance – and a brilliant mind like yours has been taken in by it.

      • Does it really matter that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad didn’t reach the ‘standards of prophethood’? Don’t the Muslims believe that prophethood ended with Muhammad? What if Mirza was a great prophet according to your standards and all his prophecies came true. Would you have believed him to be a prophet?

  6. Here are some quotes from the Mirza writings:

    ((God Almighty has conveyed it to me that every person to whom my call is conveyed and who does not accept me is NOT a Muslim and is accountable to God for his default)) – English Tadhkirah, page 745

    ((Do you think that reading Surat al-Fatiha during every Ruka’ah of prayer is equivalent to acting according to it?! Behold! You have nothing to do with Fatiha, and you should not be considered believers in any of its letters unless you believe in the [promised] Messiah who has been sent to you)) – Rouhani Khaza’in, vol 16, Khutba Ilhamiyya, page 206

    ((He who does not believe in the last Khalifa [MGAQ], is a disbeliever in The Book of Allah)) – Rouhani Khazain, vol 16, Khutba Ilhamiyya, page 77

    ((Two kind of persons are the most wicked among people; no other humanbeing or Jinn can be more wicked: The first one is any man who disbelieved in Khatam al-Anbiyaa [Muhammad SAAW], and the other is anyone who did not believe in Katam al-Khulafaa [MGAQ] )) – Rouhani Khazain, vol 18, al-Huda, page 250

    ((God Almighty has informed me that you are forbidden and absolutely forbidden to say your prayers behind an imam who pronounced me a disbeliever or a liar or who is in doubt between those two positions)) – English Tadhkirah, page 468

      • lutf, you must be out of your mind to believe that quran mentions khatim-ul khulafa, a title assumed by mirza kazzab. by saying such quotes by mirza kazzab are correct and binding you too are in league with the kazzab.

  7. Shahid, as it is a habit on this site and on all the other anti-ahmadi literature, the references are never complete or even properly translated. The next part of the same sentence in Al-Huda is “and he became arrogant, and a rejector, and he disrespected him (khatamul khulafa) and parted from the ways of modesty..”

    These are ibleesi qualities..

    • lutf

      just like the big lie called ahmadiyyat (which is nothing but mirzaism) your own lie stands exposed in the wake of original scanned pages of the works of mirza kazzab. so abandon this old mirzai trick of questioning the authenticity of quotes from mirzai literature. it is defeatist attitude.

  8. Salaam,

    Just on a point about the high standards of prophets, and whether Mirza Ghulum Ahmad lived up to them.

    We must remember that , as a recent claimant to prophet hood status , his life is highly documented. As such, probably more than any other previous Prophet and therefore can be heavily scrutinised… as it was during his own lifetime.

    It is worth noting, that prophets are human beings and do have personal failing too. After all , Prophet Moses, killed a man, Jonah doubted God, ( peace be on them). And as such, we cannot compare the perfection of The Holy Prophet with Mirza Ghulum Ahmad on a like for like basis and it does not make him less of a claimant to prophet-hood.

    • Element,

      Musa (AS) killed a man, but his intention was to rescue who he perceived as oppressed and to only push him.

      Yunas [Jonah] (AS) doubted Allah??? What? The Prophets were the most severely tested, but they never faltered in their convictions. They are our role models. If Allah chose someone faltered in Emaan, who would we look to for guidance?

    • this is kinda off topic but related to your post. i always wondered what the meaning of this revelation was:

      “Your departure from this world is imminent and we shall leave no trace or sing of any matter that may be a cause of ignominy or infamy for you… …We shall dispel all objections and will leave nothing behind that may be used to bring your name into disrepute (The Will 6).”

      then he explains the revelation by saying it has two meanings.
      1. everything that brings his reputation down will be “refuted and brought to naught.”
      2. people “who do not refrain from speaking ill” of him “shall be wiped of existence and along with them their foul objections will be annihilated (same page).”

      so the problem is pretty obvious. how does jama’at ahmadiyyah interpret this revelation when obviously after his death, critique of him still exists.

      • criticism of mirzaism not only persists after 100 years of his death but has increased to an unprecedented height, not to speak of outright ban on mirzai teachings in several countries. flies in the face of arrogant, egotistic liar of the century, mirza kazzab. poor mirzais have little escape from the tenticular internet bringing in the open all their dirty linen spoiled by mirza when he died of epidemic cholera.

        • no but this is a book (the will) that all ahmadis are told to read at least three times. you need to read this book to become a musi. so A LOT of ahmadis read this revelation. when i first read it a few years back, i thought of the toilet death thing (that was the only anti-ahmadi thing i knew back then) but then assumed that the revelation probably has a deeper meaning or else ahmadiyyah could be destroyed by this problem. and i continue to think this because i’ve never seen non-ahmadis critique this revelation and i see ahmadis confidently encouraging the reading of the will and even sultanulqalam on youtube has this revelation in his channel description for everybody to see.

          • given the fact that mirza kazzab was in the habit of boasting his unspeakable secret relationship with yalash, muslims see little point in critiquing this particular “revelation.” moreover, there is nothing new in it that he has not repeated elsewhere.

  9. though highly superficial comments have been made, i’ll refrain from commenting on whether or not prophets commit mistakes for the vastness and depth of this theme.

    as to mirza kazzab, he dared not only to compare himself with the blessed prophet; claimed to be his second advent; but proclaimed to have combined the qualities and traits of ALL the prophets ever walked on this earth. he encroached upon every single icon of islamic faith and assumed as if it was his reflection. this alone puts him outside the pale of rational human behavior, what to talk of the elevated station of prophethood.

    your attempt to buttress mirza kazzab shows you really have not read his “works.” try your hand on some of the 8-page pamphlets authored by the kazzab whom his disciples so mistakenly call sultan-ul qalam. check out his stock of filthy curses; read his umpteen death notices that he stopped issuing only under court orders. and finally, take note of his failed “prophecies.”

  10. The fact that mirza mahmud backpeddled in the statements made by him after the riots of 1954 made me leave Ahmadiyyat.

    When I read that, my whole world was shaken….

    I couldnt believe that this guy lied!!!

    Question for Lutf: Why did the LAM and the AMC disagree on the topic of Kufr for 40 years? If the statement by Mahmud are accurate (of 1954) then there is no difference between the beliefs of the two groups on this matter…so what were they arguing about…

    I realized that Mahmud was a liar…then I researched Ahmadiyyat and realized that MGA was the bigger liar….

  11. Curse of Almighty Allah for those who lies, amin
    Holy Prophet Muhammd (saw) said they are kafir those who don’t pray five time,
    Some Muslim did kufer of Na’ma (blessings of Allah),
    I ask you all non ahmdies, if Imam Mahdi(as) or Isa (as) sent down, and all those who will reject Him (as) will they kafir or not?
    Give answer according to your understanding of Islam.
    What I know one who reject one among the prophets is a kafir, to believe in all prophets is essential for a Muslim.
    In the verse below its decieded that only true prophet will get success not liars.
    “Allah has decreed: ‘Most surely I will prevail, I and My Messengers.’ Verily, Allah is Powerful, Mighty.”[58:22]
    Success of Ahmadiyyat is the witness of truth, that blessings of Almighty Allah are with jam’at of His swt Imam Mahdi(as),
    if we see the condition of non Ahmadies in these days we can see there is not any blessing of Almighty Allah with them but His swt punishment is there in the form of Terrorism, earthquakes and disasters. Even Muslims killing Muslims on the name of Jihad, not even any two Muslims country can have friendly relations with each other, not even two different sects in Muslim have respect for each other, but they all said that every thing is good but not Ahmadies,
    ‘’…………… Thou thinkest them to be united, but their hearts are divided. That is because they are a people who have no sense‘’. [59:15]

    • So you think that Allah is punishing muslims right now, thats interesting…..

      The punishment that i get is when I watch the speeched of Masroor. Is this the best guy you got? Was he the best option at khalifa?

      Face it, this is a family enterprise, like Malcolm X said, “we been hoodwinked”.

  12. In hadith there comes ,
    تيجة 10 من 11
    سنن النسائي، الإصدار 1.14 – للإمام النسائي
    المجلد الأول. >> كتاب الصلاة >> باب الحكم في تارك الصلاة

    أخبرنا الحسين بن حريث قال أنبأنا الفضل بن موسى عن الحسين بن واقد عن عبد الله بن بريدة عن أبيه
    -قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن العهد الذي بيننا وبينهم الصلاة فمن تركها فقد كفر (في نسخة هذه الزيادة: أخبرنا أحمد بن حرب حدثنا محمد بن ربيعة عن ابن جريج عن أبي الزبير عن جابر قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ليس بين الكفر إلا ترك الصلاة)

    hazrat Muhammad (saw) have said that who do not offer prayer have committed KUFFAR
    question from farhan .Everyday millions of the Muslim do not offer the prayers . Are they all kaffir ?

    • Khalid: Can you give an exact reference in terms of what hadith book you are referring to, can you give a link to it as well. We also need Book # as well as hadith #.

      ^when referencing material that is the format, if you didnt know!

      • @rationalist

        is ur eyesight is OK ?
        if u have bother to read my post , i provided the reference of the hadith at the top

        book name Sanan Nisaii
        volume no 1
        Book of prayer.

        so i followed the rule , but u really showed ur understanding abilities are very great .

        above hadith clearly says that one who is not offering prayers is a KAFFIR ,

        what u say ? hmm hadith is fabricated. or u will use the most famous way of rejecting the hadith that is , narrators are weak.

        whenever u guys failed to answer hadith , automatically narrators becomes weak .

        anyway , this hadith says that A muslim becomes a kaffir when he does not offer a prayer.
        questions are …

        whats the meaning of the KAFFIR here ?
        does he remain a Muslim after not offering the prayer. ?

        though answer is very simple one

        a muslim can be a kaffir
        not offering prayer makes a muslim Kaffir, yet he do not become non muslim

        so this is what we ahmadies say

        u are all kaffirs because u have rejected the prophet of the GOD.
        but u are all muslims , because u say u are muslims so u will be a part of the muslim ummaat .

        a bit difficult thing to understand for you rationalist .
        after all u cannot even see the reference of the hadith then what else u can see and understand ?

        • I cant read arabic that well, DUMB DUMB….

          I looked for the Nisai on the internet just briefly, I wasnt able to find this book available on the web. Thats what i meant when I wrote give a proper reference, you half wit!!!!

          You didnt answer my question! Why does Mirza Tahir Ahmad and other imams of your cult discredit bukhari and muslim in terms of abrogation and the punishment for apostacy?? You seemed to have blattered on and on, but you didnt answer my question.

          FYI: If a muslim doesnt believe in even one prophet (from adam to Muhammad) of allah, then that person is no longer muslim. He is finished with Islam. NO doubt about it. The ahmadis have made MGA the only prophet in the history of Islam, who’s denial keeps someone a muslim–thats just stupid.

          In 1911–1922, the mirza brothers were calling everyone Kafir because they didnt accept a new prophet (MGA), in 1954 they backpeddled and created a prophet who’s denial still kept someone inside Islam–thats absurd!!

          Answer some questions for once in your life!

          • O an once wit!Its not my headache if u cannot find Nisai on the web. am i right ?
            second it is also not my headache to answer to about the punishment of apostasy in islam , in a place where we should be talking on the matter of KUFFIR.

            and where is the answer of my question ?
            tell me u cannot answer it then i shall answer ur question ?
            First question was from my side.

            I was also interested to know the true meaning of above hadith from the Farhan , but he also did not answer it .I do not think that my question is so difficult that neither u can answer nor Farhan .

          • sorry i wanted to write , O an ounce wit in the response of rationalist calling me half wit ,

        • Khalid Nazwaz I can not understand why you continue to ask about the ahadith on the one who abandons prayer.

          What exactly are you trying to demonstrate by making this point.

          If we concede that all those who do not offer prayer have committed kufr and are outside the pale of Islam, how will this help the point you are making.

          Rather it would be a further evidence against you, it is impossible for a person to be a kaafir and still be a muslim. Thats like saying something is only black but also white.

          You say

          ‘so this is what we ahmadies say

          u are all kaffirs because u have rejected the prophet of the GOD.
          but u are all muslims , because u say u are muslims so u will be a part of the muslim ummaat .’

          I say that the statement you make above is one of extreme ignorance and shows your limited understanding of my religion Islam.

          You may be very knowledgeable in the workings of your cult but please do not use our beloved Prophet’s PBUH ahadith to support you heretical positions.

          The ahadith you refer to as I have stated previously absolutely nullify the point you are trying to make about you can be a kaafir and still a Muslim.

          Allah is my witness that I have never come across such a deluded and deviated bunch of fools like those who try to argue for the sake of this cult, by their own limited understandings and twisted, distorted interpretations of the divine revelation and Prophetic narrations.

          The fact that your false Prophet was not even a able to understand the language of the revelation should be enough for you to discard his foolish attempts at explaining something that Allah had already explained to his ummah through the last of our Prophets Muhammad PBUH.

          Anyway as you insist on wanting an explanation of the ahadith from brother Farhan, (who is not a Scholar and has never professed to be), I provide for you a link to the ruling on the one who does not pray which include some ahadith you keep mentioning.

          http://salafimanhaj.com/pdf/SalafiManhaj_AbandoningSalat.pdf

          Read it and realise that the hadith you keep referring to is an evidence against your position and completely undermines any point you were trying to make about the possibility of being a kaafir but still a Muslim.

          May Allah guide you and all of us to the truth and rescue you from your ignorance. Ameen

  13. Mr Farhan , its the right of the ahmadies to tell u what hazrat Mirza basheer (rz) meant and what he(rz) did not mean .

    u said that he (rz) plainly called all the muslims as the kaffir .

    hazrat Muhammad (saw) also plainly called all those who do not offer the prayer as KAFFIR

    قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن العهد الذي بيننا وبينهم الصلاة فمن تركها فقد كفر

    Now your first try will be to term this hadith as the weak hadith , if u could not do it then u will interpret it .
    you will be very daring person if u take the meaning of above hadith literary, and will start calling any Muslims who do not offer his any prayer as the KAFFIR.

    i shall wait for ur reply on this hadith

    • Mirza Basheer should have explained as to what he meant or what he didnt mean. When an author or a speaker writes something or proclaims something, it is that persons responsibility to make sure that his audience gets the correct understanding. If the audience is confused the speaker is deemed as unintelligable.

      You are claiming that 100% of the public misunderstood the writings of the sons of MGA. Thats a bold statment, its also very sick and shows a pattern of elusive behavior.

      Secondly, it is the qadianis who discredit hadith, not the muslims. See how your cult has explained the hadith about apostacy and abrogation in sahih bukhari. Go and read that before you allege the muslims of similiar behavior.

      Here is a manual on how orthodox muslims define Islam:
      Level 1. Quran
      Level 2. Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim
      Level 3. the other hadith books, like abu daud, tirmidhi, etc etc
      Level 4. The earliest mufassirs, like ibn abbas, then ibn kathir, etc etc etc

      ^ this is how we define Islam

      Your cult employs a “picking and choosing” theory, you find what helps your cause and immediately authenticate its contents. Like:

      1. Jesus lived til 120 (kanzulummal)
      2. eclipses (dar ul qutni)

      etc etc etc

      go do your homework, young boy……

      • Rationalist! is there a single line in ur answer which correspond to my question ?
        u wrote that 1954 hazrat Musleah Maood (rz) backed out from his old stance . which is a lie. hazrat Musledh Maood (rz) response was well defined and he (rz) clarified it long before 1954 .
        it shows me the depth of ur knowledge

  14. Why you want to prove this hadith weak?

    You have missed the whole point.

    We say as per Ahmadi Beliefs, Muslims are Kafir. There is nothing wrong in it. If you consider Mirza the Liar as prophet, then anyone who does not believe in him is a kafir. There is nothing wrong in it.

    Only problem is, that Ahmadis try to blow a trumpet – no one can be called a Kafir. Please don’t call anyone Kafir. Oh my God! these Mullahs call us Kafir. So we don’t have a problem in the fact that we consider you Kafir and you consider us Kafir. It is you, who try to lie and back out of the teachings of your liar prophet.

    • Ahmadies are against those meaning of teh Kafir which u guys apply to other sects and to ahmadies .
      we believe a man can be a kafir and muslim too ,but u guys say , ahmadies are kaffir and non muslim .
      MY stance will be automatically corroborated when u will bother to answer my question . The question is , one who do nto offer prayer surely become KAFIR , as per the verdict of the hazrat uhammad (saw) . Do he also become non muslim .

  15. Mirza Basheer Ahmad wrote in Kalamatul Fasl that since a muslim has to be believe in all the prophets of allah, then it is incumbent for all muslims to believe in MGA, therefore, since the rest of the muslim world rejected MGA, under these circumstances they are no longer muslim.

    ^ this was a correct statement by Mirza Basheer Ahmad.

    We are pointing out that in 1954 then later in 1974, your cult moved away from this interpretation, your cult adopted the LAM view on the topic.

    In 1954, Mahmud Ahmad made MGA the only prophet that muslims dont have to accept. —that is insane!!!!

  16. Farhan, please be honest.

    Farhan, I met you on funeral of marhoom Abdul Manan Omar sahib (son of Maulana Noor Ud Din sahib) in 2006. I accompanied you and Orthodox in Orthodox’s car, from Abdul Manan Omar sahib son’s home to mosque. We went to Black American Muslims mosque where Abdul Manan Omar sahib janazah (funeral) prayer was offered. I have high regard for you. I appreciated your honesty and bravery to come to attend Abdul Manan Omar sahib funeral prayer. Please don’t shatter that impression. Thanks.

    Farhan, in your blog, you built your case on quotes and beliefs of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, and at the end you accused his father Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib of making outrageous claims. You wrote: “Instead, leave this false prophet and his misguidance and embrace the traditional path of Islam. Islam is in your blood, take back what Mirza Ghulam stole from you. I would be honored to call you my brother- not in Ahmadiyya- but in Islam.”.

    Farhan, basically by your logic you are supporting Saint Paul statements about Jesus. You are giving the impression that Paul was right that Jesus made claim of Son-of-God.

    Brother Farhan, we all will die. And we all will be answering to Allah SWT for what we are writing on this forum.

    • Straight Talker,
      You’re confusing me someone else. I do not even know who Abdul Manan Omar Sahib. FYI, Orthodox and I share the same name. ‘Farhan’ is a very common name.

      • Abdul Mannan is the son of Noorudin, their first khalifa. Only 2 months after Noorudin died, Mahmud married Noorudins daughter who was roughly 15 years old. She died about 10 to 15 years later mysteriously, she had three children with Mahmud. There wherabouts are unknown to me.

        Mahmud helped in raising the 2 sons of Noorudin, Later in the mid 1950’s Mahmud became suspicious of them, he was afraid that one of them might become khalifa. He ex-communicated both of them. Abdul Mannan eventually moved to Europe and then to the USA, he died in Virginia like 6 years ago.

  17. Rationalist
    As a Muslim I believe that only Almighty Allah choose any one Khalifa, if I take you right then shia believe that hazrat Ali ra should be the first khalifa, then they could be right, but as a Muslim I believe that no body can make some one khalifa except Allah swt, so hazrat Abu Bakar ra was elected by Almighty Allah, so I don’t have doubt in it, and it is not any ones duty to ask why his favorite person is not khalifa.

    Rationalist, you mentioned
    (If a muslim doesnt believe in even one prophet (from adam to Muhammad) of allah).
    Can you refer a Hadith or verse of the Holy Qur’an for the same. That this is mentioned from Adam to Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw).

    Plz read this verse

    ‘[3:180]Allah would not leave the believers as you are, until He separated the wicked from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messengers. If you believe and be righteous, you shall have a great reward.’

    In this verse it is very clear that Allah swt saying to believers of Holy Prophet(saw) that Allah swt will not leave them in this condition, and Allah swt will not reveal the unseen to any non prophet, and in this verse it is mention chooses his messengers for the believers, not one but more then one when ever Allah swt would like to separate the wicked from good. Chooses itself mean present and feature.
    Read this verse

    [7:36] O children of Adam! if Messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing My Signs unto you, then whoso shall fear God and do good deeds, on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve.

    This order is mentioned in holy quran not in bible. That if Messengers come to you, here defiantly mentioned for Muslims, because just some verses before same wording is used for Muslims.

    [7:32] O children of Adam! look to your adornment at every time and place of worship, and eat and drink but exceed not the bounds; surely, He does not love those who exceed the bounds.

    This was revealed for Muslims not for non Muslims, bcoz there were some Muslims following old traditions and Almighty Allah stop them to follow that in this verse,
    don’t close your eyes and don’t live like abu jahal(deaf dumb and blind).

  18. Why are you avoiding my questions? Of course its adam to Muhammad, because Muhammad was the last prophet. Nonetheless, if its Adam to MGA, then muslims are no longer muslims per the instructions of mahmud from 1911 to 1922.

    Much of your writing are very hard to understand.

    FYI: Muslims must believe in the 6 articles of faith.

    Here it is:
    [2:286] This Messenger of Ours believes in that which has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers: all of them believe in Allah, and in His angels, and in His Books, and in His Messengers, saying, ‘We make no distinction between any of His Messengers;’ and they say, ‘We hear, and we obey. We implore Thy forgiveness, O our Lord, and to Thee is the returning.’

    At one point in ahmadiyya history, the mirza brothers were calling muslims as kaffirs for not believing in MGA as a messenger. Later on in 1954, mahmud recanted this statement of his.

    And finally, did allah make Mauwiyya a khalifa? Do you understand english on a 3rd grade level, it doesnt appear as such.

  19. Rationalist
    i just ask you give me proof what you said that prophets are only adam(as) to Prophet Muhammad (saw),
    where it is mentioned to believe the prophets, it always mentioned about all prophets there is not any limit,
    those verse are very hard to understand for you bcoz, those are not according to your wishes.
    Plz read more and more for your knowledge. You are rejecting all these verses I am sending you

    [3:82] And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying: ‘Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.’ And He said: ‘Do you agree, and do you accept the responsibility which I lay upon you in this matter?’ They said, ‘We agree;’ He said, ‘Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.’

    This covenant is taken from all mankind including Holy Prophet (saw). If there was not any prophet after Holy Prophet (saw) then why this was taken from the Holy Prophet(saw).

    Read this
    [33:8]And remember when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from thee, and from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus, son of Mary, and We indeed took from them a solemn covenant;

    In this verse it is mentioned that covenant of Prophets was also taken from the Holy Prophet(saw).(and from thee),

    You are rejecting all verses I have mentioned in my last post and in this post . But you are still a Muslim, but when you say khatam mean last and even you don’t know the meaning of khatam,

    Even you reject it by yourself when you believe that Isa(as) is coming back after Holy Prophet (saw).
    If you think that jesus (as) was prophet before Holy Prophet(saw), then there are many questions raised that is there any teaching, that if some one is the last in list that will increase his spiritual level, if you know any Hadith or verse for this plz refer me,
    2nd if there is need of a prophet or not after Holy Prophet?, yes, bcoz all the Muslims are waiting that when Isa(as) will come, He have a mission, its mean there is need of Prophet after Holy Prophet(saw) and that will be fulfilled by the Isa(as),
    If there is need of a prophet after Holy Prophet(saw), and a prophet from Jews will come back to fill the needs, then it is very shameful for the ummah, that when in the past any ummah need a prophet , they get this blessings from among them but when ummah of Holy Prophet(saw) need a prophet, there was not even one person able to get these blessings, and then Almighty Allah sent back a Jews prophet for Muslims to solve this problem, what a shame for your kind of mullan

    On the one side you believe there is no need of a prophet and on other side you are waiting for a prophet Isa(as) , you are such a hypocrite in your believe.

    • To thetruth,

      could you please kindly clarify the references for the verses you have quoted above from the Quran.

      It’s just that I do not understand which format you are providing the references in.

      For example when you say

      ‘[3:180]Allah would not leave the believers as you are, until He separated the wicked from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messengers. If you believe and be righteous, you shall have a great reward.’.

      Do you mean Surah 3 verse 180? This must be what you mean, as it would be impossible, as we all know for it to be Surah 180 Verse 3 because there are only 114 Surahs in the Quran.

      Or are you using some other format altogether, please clarify so that I may look into the verses you have quoted.

      It’s just that if you do indeed mean Surah 3 verse 180 then what I find it says is

      وَلَا يَحۡسَبَنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ يَبۡخَلُونَ بِمَآ ءَاتَٮٰهُمُ ٱللَّهُ مِن فَضۡلِهِۦ هُوَ خَيۡرً۬ا لَّهُم‌ۖ بَلۡ هُوَ شَرٌّ۬ لَّهُمۡ‌ۖ سَيُطَوَّقُونَ مَا بَخِلُواْ بِهِۦ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ‌ۗ وَلِلَّهِ مِيرَٲثُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ‌ۗ وَٱللَّهُ بِمَا تَعۡمَلُونَ خَبِيرٌ۬ (١٨٠)

      And let not those who covetously withhold of that which Allâh has bestowed on them of His Bounty (Wealth) think that it is good for them (and so they do not pay the obligatory Zakât). Nay, it will be worse for them; the things which they covetously withheld shall be tied to their necks like a collar on the Day of Resurrection[]. And to Allâh belongs the heritage of the heavens and the earth; and Allâh is Well¬Acquainted with all that you do. (180)

      I hope you can see why this is confusing me, however in any case I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to clarify for me which verses exactly you have referred to.

      Maybe it is a problem I am making in understanding what you have quoted. It is probably best if you quote the name of the Surah you refer to and the number of the verse or verses.

  20. @farhan

    قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن العهد الذي بيننا وبينهم الصلاة فمن تركها فقد كفر

    can u take time let me know ur view of above hadith ?

    • My view? Since when does my “view” matter on Hadith?

      We don’t read Hadith like the newspaper. We must know:
      A) When it was said
      B) Why it was said
      C) Where it was said
      D) To whom it was said to
      E) The relationship with any other ahadith
      G) In what tone of voice was it said
      etc, etc, etc

      [FYI everyone, its basically saying that the “thing” between us and them [the kafireen] is the Salah. Whoever leaves it (the Salah), thats Kufr]

      • ok as u wish

        You said ,”
        [FYI everyone, its basically saying that the “thing” between us and them [the kafireen] is the Salah. Whoever leaves it (the Salah), thats Kufr]”

        i just wanted to know when some muslim do not offer the prayer and leaves it , Does he become Kaffir (Non muslim ) or Does he become Kaffir (not true Muslim ).
        You do not wanna give ur view right now , Ok as u wish .

        But my purpose of quoting this hadith is clear . We take the meaning of Kaffir as the opposite of the true muslim and “Momen”
        . And in same sense the word Kaffir is used in the quoted hadith.

        • Khalid excuse my abruptness but you are talking complete nonsense.

          A kaafir is a kaafir is a kaafir. How can you be a kaafir and still be a Muslim?

          The hadith is against you not with you how can you not see this.

          Talk about blind to the truth.

          • Well, to be fair, a Muslim can commit Kufr, but not be a Kaafir. There are degrees of Kufr. But, a person who commits the minor kufr is not a kaafir in the traditional sense.

            The Khawarij did not make this distinction. They said even minor kufr makes a person a kaafir.

        • Ya Khalid, I am not blind to the text of the Hadith. But, as I said, hadith are not newspapers to be read and self-interpreted in a vacuum. One must know its full context to be qualified to make such rulings from hadith.

          One must know:
          A) When it was said
          B) Why it was said
          C) Where it was said
          D) To whom it was said to
          E) The relationship with any other ahadith
          G) In what tone of voice was it said
          etc, etc, etc

          Just like an elementary school student cannot pick up a book on Cell Biology and come to his own understanding, a layman does not read isolated hadith and come to conclusions.

          • BarakAllahuFeek brother Farhan,

            I am aware as you quite correctly stated that not all kufr makes you a kaafir and there are varying degrees of kufr.

            What I was stating is that if you are deemed a kaafir you can not be a Muslim, period.

            The opinion of the Ulama whom I follow is that if you leave of salat, then this is major kufr that puts you outside of the fold of Islam.

            The link I have posted gives the evidences for this position.

            What this deluded individual Khalid is doing in continually referencing the ahadith which support this opinion is beyond me.

            His statement that Ahmadi’s consider us all kaafirs but still Muslims is nothing but a deluded contradiction.

  21. EX-AHMADIS,
    dear y ur name is ex-ahmadis, every ahmadi know that only ahmadies are who believe that bismillah is the 1st verse of each surah, we believe and this is true, that bismillah was revealed with each surah (except surah altaubah) like other verses so that is the part of each surah, so we count bismillah verse no. 1 but other Muslim unfortunately don’t.
    so if i say 3:180, you can read 3:179, other is same how you read surah : verse.
    But must read plz, and I would like to inform you don’t read translation of you sheikhs but find a dictionary and you will translate batter then them, they always hide the truth behind there lies,
    I have never find I any Arabic dictionary that (tawafi) mean other then death but I never find any sheikh translate (tawafi) according to any dictionary, they have their own created dictionaries,
    I have never find (khatam) mean last, but they have in there dictionaries,

    thank you for asking what you don’t understand.

    • thetruth,

      I think you have highlighted the entire problem of Ahmadis in your last posting.

      You choose to interpret the words of Allah SWT by using a dictionary and not by following and understanding it in the same way the Prophet Muhammad PBUH and the best of generations who followed him (the salaf) understood it.

      This is foolishness, you choose to believe your dictionary interpretations over the way that previous people who were experts in this language choose to interpret these verses.

      Those people who had access to the most beloved person to Allah understood the words totally different to what you now want us to believe.

      Do you really expect me to believe and act in a way that you tell me to over the way of the people who had the greatest Prophet Muhammad PBUH in their midst explaining the verses to them and ensuring that they acted upon them.

      I believe and try and act in exactly the same way as these earlier generations simply because they understood the Quran far better than any of the later people possibly could.

      The reason for this is simple, they had the best of teachers the best of creation, the best of Prophets teaching and guiding them.

      Safety and salvation is in this way and this way alone, all other ways lead to the ultimate disgraceful destination, the hellfire.

      I don’t care how you twist and distort the meaning of the word ‘khatam’. What I do know is that the Prophet PBUH and the earlier generations never made any reference to any new Prophet after him.

      They understood that verse to mean the finality of Prophethood.

      I frankly am not stupid nor brave enough to go against their understanding of what was their mother tongue as explained to them by their teacher the best of mankind.

      If you honestly expect me to believe your dictionaries or false Prophet or Khalifa’s interpretaions who can not even fluently speak let, alone make tafsir of the language of Allah then you are indeed deluded.

      • Brother, I have come to the conclusion that Mirzology is a religion that considers the whole of Islam for over a thousand years as nothing more than a conspiracy theory. It is a conspiracy that we hide the meaning of the Qur’an. It is a conspiracy theory that we are against Mirzais. It is a conspiracy theory that the true meaning of “khaatam” is hidden. I tell you, the whole of Mirzology would be too outlandish for even a Dan Brown novel.

    • peacelover
      when you see there is no answer, then you reply with out logic,
      if you have realy read my post plz reply through the Holy Quran or Hadith if you think these teaching are with you believes.

      • as a human courtesy, not that your post demands it, i ask one straight question: quote an authentic islamic source for the mirzai stand on bismillah. if you come up with a scholarly response, we are in for a debate. no mirzai sources. only islamic sources.

  22. Although, I am not able to read this report in english, I will give an answer based on the info that has been provided to me.

    This hadith report is declaring that is any muslim who stop’s performing salaat that muslim becomes a KAFIR. He is no longer muslim, THATS IT. Until he begins to perform salaat he is a KAFIR.

    ^this example denotes exactly what happens to a muslim when he rejects a messenger of Allah. There is no gray area.

    Ahmadis are trying to say that by rejecting MGA a muslim loses his status as a MOMIN–that is hogwash.

    Now will you answer my questions?

    1. What were the mirza brothers and the LAM arguing about for 40 years???

  23. Khatam means LAST in Lane’s lexicon!!! Have you ever read that?

    I forgot Masroor doesnt want you to read that….

    • Lane’s Lexicon also does say it means “stamp” and these types. We orthodox Muslims accept that meaning, but we also affirm that it means “Last”. In context, Lane’s Lexicon translates it to mean “Last of the Prophets”.

      But yes, Ahmadis conveniently reject this.

  24. Taken from the AL-HILAL 25th March 1914:

    “Since quite some time this jamaat (ahmadiyya) has been divided into two groups because of the differences on the issue of Takfir. One group (LAM) believes that non-ahmadi muslims too are muslims even though they don’t believe in the claims of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, while the other group (AMC) openly proclaims that those who do not believe in Hazrat Mirza Sahib are Kafir (some arabic phrase). Mirza Basheer-ud-din Mahmud Ahmad is the leader of the latter group and they have now declared him as their khalifa but the first group does not recognize him. The articles published by Maulana Muhammad Ali in this behalf and the unparalelled courage and boldness with which he had expressed his opinion while residing in qadian is in fact an event which will go down in the history as the greatest event of this year”

    See http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/others/hafizshermuhammad/truthvindicatedafterfortyyears/truthvindicatedafterfortyyears.pdf

    3 (6 of 12)

    CASE CLOSED!!!!!!!!

    WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO–CIRCA 1883

  25. Here are some other comments made by the mirza brothers:

    1. So whatever has been ordained in the Holy Quran about the non-belief in a Prophet, the same applies in the case of Mirza Sahib. (Al Qaul-al-Fasl, P.33) (published–jan 1915)

    2. If we dont believe in him as a Prophet then a dangerous flaw occurs (in iman) which is enough to render one a Kafir. (Reality of Prophethood, P. 204) (published 1915)

    3. It is obligatory for us not to consider non-ahmadis as muslims. (anwar -e- khilafat) (published 1916).

    4. “…and one who does not beliece in the Promised Messiah, whatever his reasons for this non-belief, he is Kafir. (Dhikr-e-Illahi P.22) (roughly 1916)

    5. “The Third matter to which he (Maulana Mohammed Ali) calls my attention is the issue of “Kufar and Islam”, he says the path of peace is that we consider non-ahmadi as muslims, but I say “the path of peace is that we accept the decision of the Holy Quran. The Holy Quran calls the non-believers is a Prophet a Kafir, and the same Allah calls Mirza Sahib a Prophet”. (Haqeeqat-ul-Amr, P.17)

    MIRZA BASHEER AHMAD WROTE:

    6. Every such person, who believes in Moses but does not believe in Jesus or believes in Jesus but does not believe in Muhammad or believes in Muhammad but does not believe in the Promised Messiah, is not only a Kafir but a confirmed Kafir and outside the pale of Islam. (Kalamatul Fasl, Pg. 110)

    • Our God is Allah. Theirs is Yalesh/Yalash/Yalaash. Our angel of revelation is Jibreel (as) and theirs is Teechi Teechi, the lying devil. Our prophet is Muhammad (saw) and theirs is Mirza al-Kazzab. Our holy cities are Mecca and Medina. Theirs are Qadian and Rabwah. Our book is the Qur’an. Theirs is Tadhkirah. Our tax is zakah and theirs is chanda aam. We even celebrate eid on different days. We don’t intermarry, we don’t share mosques or even graveyards. And they call us kuffar. Funny.

  26. Rationalist
    this is the same dictionary which is creation of mullan(sheikh), which i mentioned in my last post, that is not dictionary, that is how mullan translate the Holy Quran,
    here are dictionaries (not ahmadiyya but a neutral)
    Translated by Google ( don’t now say that Google is Ahmadiyyah agent )
    Form English to arabic
    For last (there is no khatam in these)
    http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en&ie=UTF8#en|ar|last

    For take (there is no tawafi in these)
    http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en&ie=UTF8#en|ar|take

    But see the truth here
    Form Arabic to English
    For tawafi توفی
    http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&ie=UTF8#ar|en|%D8%AA%D9%88%D9%81%D9%8A%0D%0A

    Tawafi mean dead

    For khatam خاتم
    http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&ie=UTF8#ar|en|%D8%AE%D8%A7%D8%AA%D9%85%0D%0A

    Ring not last
    But khtem ختم have many meanings , but not khatam خاتم
    http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&ie=UTF8#ar|en|%D8%AE%D8%AA%D9%85%0D%0A%0D%0A

    don’t live blindly, there is world other then mullan(sheikh),
    don’t for get the Hadith where it is mentioned that “Ulma of my ummah will be the worse on the earth they will be misguided and will responsible for misguidance of other Muslims“.

    This time is not the time of night but its time of day, the day of imam mahdi(as), open you windows to get this light.
    i can send you many dictionaries if you want, ask you mullan why only these two words have different meaning in other dictionaries?

    • Lets suppose hypothetically ‘Esa bin Maryam (AS) died in India at the age of 120 after his journey through central Asia. So what?

      I’ve only barely argued against this Ahmadi belief. I am against the Ahmadi belief in the continuation of prophethood. You’re challenging me on something I do not even bring up in discussions.

      • If you believe that Isa(as) is died then who is coming after Holy Prophet (saw) which have the label of Prophet Isa(as), bcoz He is coming as a prophet according to hadith and Holy Quran.
        In one hadith it is mentioned that “when prophet of Allah swt Isa(as) will come“,
        then if some one died, how he can come back when it is mentioned that those who will enter into the heaven will never went out from there,

        I have questions if you believe that prophet hood is disconnected,
        What are the reason?
        1. The sharia is completed,
        2. There is no need of prophets.
        3. Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) should be the last in the list.
        4. In some hadith it is mentioned that He is the last,

        If there is any else reason please mention?

        Answer for no. 1 is we believe there were thousands of prophets before Holy Prophet(saw) but how many bring shariya just a few, and all other were subordinate prophets, like Prophet Haroon (as) was subordinate prophet with Prophet Moosa (as). So just completion of shariya have no sense to stop the prophet hood.

        For No. 2 is if there is no need of prophet then why Ummah is waiting for Imam Mahdi, and Isa(as). Why the success of Islam is conditioned with these two persons, do they have missions or not , if they have then why they could not prophets, Is prophet hood (naozbillah) bad thing.

        For No.3 is there any spiritual honor for some one, if someone is Last in the list, so you want Holy Prophet as last in the list. (is this teaching of Islam that last in the list is honorable). If you know any hadith or verse please refer me? I believe Holy Prophet (saw) was the First and the Last, in his qualities, honor, and spiritual level.

        For No. 4 as many Muslim misunderstand when they read that there is written in the Hadith that Holy Prophet(saw) is Last, or there is not prophet after Him(saw),
        But unfortunately they forgot that Holy Prophet (saw) has promised that prophet of Allah Isa (as) will come after Him(saw).
        If you want to understand the meaning of last and after Him(saw), then you should read all Hadith about last and after Him, and then analyze the truth,

        Last in the Prophet (Akhr-ul-anbiya) Hadith Sahih Muslim kitab-ul-hajj
        Book 007, Number 3211:
        ……………………….. Abdullah b. Ibrahim said to us: I bear witness to the fact that I heard Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) say that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am the last of the Apostles and my mosque is the last of the mosques. (source is here)
        http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/007.smt.html

        In this hadith it is defind by the Holy Prophet (saw), what are the meanings of Last in the Prophets. If there are the mosques after the Mosque of Prophet(saw), then there could be prophets after Holy Propht(saw) but not like Him(saw), as that mosque have highest level in mosques same is the highest level of the Holy Prophet(saw) in the prophets,

        For no prophet after Him(saw) (la nabiya ba’adi)
        Sahih Muslim kitab-ul-fitan

        Book 041, Number 6973:
        Abu Huraira reported that Allh’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: (Khusrau king of Persia) would die and Qaisar (Ceasar King of Rome) would die; there would be no Qaisar after him, but, by one in Whose Hand is my life, you would spend their treasures in the cause of Allah.

        Book 041, Number 6974:
        This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Zuhri.

        Book 041, Number 6975:
        Hammam b. Munabbih reported: This is what Abu Huraira reported from Allah’s messenger (may peace be upon him) and in this connection he reported so many hadith (and one of them was this): Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Kisra would die and then there would be no Kisra after him. Qaisar would die and there would be no Qaisar after him, but you will distribute their threasuers in thecause of Allah.

        Book 041, Number 6976:
        Jabir b. Samura reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When Kisra would die there would be no Kisra after him; the rest of the hadith is the same as Abu Huraira reported.
        (source)
        http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/041.smt.html

        In Hadith above it is mentioned that there would be no Qaisar after him, but my cousin’s name is Qaisar, so ba’adi is used for many meanings.

        (ba’adi) is used for “except” not in the meaning of after.
        [45:7] These are the Signs of Allah which We rehearse unto thee with truth. In what word, then, after Allah and His Signs will they believe?

        [45:24] …………… Who, then, will guide him after Allah ? Will you not then heed?

        Why we believe that prophet hood is continue because Holy Qur’an and Hadith teached us.

        [7:36] O children of Adam! if Messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing My Signs unto you, then whoso shall fear God and do good deeds, on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve.

        This verse is not in bible but it is in the Holy Book, that’s mean, here word messengers is used not one but more then one,
        and it is for Muslims bcoz only Muslim believe this book not Jews or Christians. Proof is here in verse below mosque is mentioned and this verse is revealed for Muslims because they were following some old traditions when they go for Tawa’af in Ka’ba.
        [7:32] O children of Adam! look to your adornment at place of worship, and eat and drink but exceed not the bounds; surely, He does not love those who exceed the bounds.

        Another verse
        [3:82] And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying: ‘Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.’ And He said: ‘Do you agree, and do you accept the responsibility which I lay upon you in this matter?’ They said, ‘We agree;’ He said, ‘Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.’

        If there was not any prophet after Holy Prophet(saw) then why this covenant took from Holy Prophet(saw)? read this verse

        [33:8] And remember when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from thee, and from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus, son of Mary, and We indeed took from them a solemn covenant;

        One more verse.
        [3:180] Allah would not leave the believers as you are, until He separated the wicked from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messengers. If you believe and be righteous, you shall have a great reward.

        This verse is for Muslims and in this verse Almighty Allah have promised that He(swt) will not reveal the unseen to non prophets but He (swt) chooses of His(swt) Messengers whom He(swt) pleases.
        In this verse again it is mentioned for more then one prophets, for Muslims who will decide about goods and wicked,
        And word chooses is itself mean it is for present and feature, and way of Allah(swt) never change,

        [48:24] Such is the law of Allah that has been before; and thou shalt not find any change in the law of Allah.

        Brother I have many more thing to say but its going too long , it will difficult to read for you, if you want more evidence I would welcome you.

    • Yes, Khaatam has many meanings. I don’t deny that. But, in context, it bears the meaning of “Last of the Prophets”. To argue otherwise is to deny objective facts.

      • Holy Prophet (saw) is not “Last in the prophets” but He(saw) is “last of the Prophets”
        Book 007, Number 3211:
        ……..Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am the last of the Apostles and my mosque is the last of the mosques. (source is here)
        http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/007.smt.html
        you can understand meanings of “Last of the Prophets”
        we believe that in (ma’raj) (isra) Holy Prophet(saw) reached on 7th sky that is last in highest level, so He(saw) is the Last in this way, nobody can reach there,

          • @ahmadi beliefs, Izaal Auham was written and published in 1891, PLEASE CORRECT THAT!!

        • When they are forced to acknowledge that Khaatam al-Nabiyyin means “Last of the Prophets”, Ahmadis leaders bring forth alternate explanations for what it means.

          There’s 3 main alternate explanations. This is a new one 🙂

          • MGA’s definition of khatam changed over the course of time. Mahmud Ahmad explains that before 1901,when MGA wrote khataam he meant it to mean LAST.

            But after 1901, all references to khatam did not mean last anymore, MGA realized a new interpretation of prophethood, as a side-effect of that he changed the definition of khatam as a seal of attestation, instead of a seal of closure…..

            ^thats funny

  27. when you r blind spiritualy how can you see spirituality, thats why you dont understand the people, who are belonge to Almighty Allah, you are belonge to earth and He (as) is blong to sky, so if you want to see in sky you need to fly or need to have sharp eyes, when you fail to do this then you take help with lies,
    thats why you mix lies with truth,
    curse of Almighty Allah for those who lies, amin

  28. Note from Admin:

    Watch what you talk about. All further posts referring to what a person does or doesn’t do for a living will be deleted.

  29. قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن العهد الذي بيننا وبينهم الصلاة فمن تركها فقد كفر
    the haidht is talking about that when someone do nto offer prayer he becomes KAFFIR
    ok , so according to mr rationalist and ex-ahmdie , a Muslim become non-muslim when he do not offer prayer .Great belief ?
    According to ur believe a man who do not offer prayer should also be killed immediately as the glorious TEACHINGS OF YOUR ISLAM ORDERS THE KILLING OF APOSTATE .
    SO everyday, 5 times a day, those people who have not offered prayers should be brought in a open space and should be slaughtered according the true meaning of the hadith .
    Please one blog should come on above true teachings as well, encouraging Muslims to kill those who have not offer a prayer.

    But stop, let me say my words on this hadith .
    I do not believe that here the word KAFFIR is used In the meaning in which Mr farhan pointed in the start of the topic , which is
    “First, a definition. Roughly speaking, Takfīr (تكفير) means to declare someone not a Muslim. This dangerous task is only done to save the Muslims from falling into deviant or otherwise corrupted interpretations of Islam which would render them non-Muslims.”
    A person who is not offering a prayer is not a TRUE MUSLIM , but he is not a NON MUSLIM . the word MUSLIM will be applicable to him and that is what we say . A KAFFIR is not the opposite of NON MUSLIM but is the opposite of TRUE MUSLIM .

    Whatever meaning u like to give this hadith and the kuffir, u are free to do so , but Mr farhan , do not try to thrust ur meaning on ahmadiyyat .
    [b]Mr Farhan , when wrote ur book , “with love to ahmadies ” and in this when u started giving the answer to the iben arabi statement . You said that Ibne arabi used the term prophet and give it its own meaning, you point was that no one should give his word PROPHET in the sense in which PROPHET is used in Islamic literature. (am I right ? is not this what u wanted to say ? ) then it should not be difficult for u to understand that ahmadies also used this term KUFFIR not in the sense u are thrusting on ahmadies but according to their own meaning [/b]

    Mr rationalist said that how he left ahmadiyyat because in the 1922 , my caliph said the mulsims are kafir but in 1954 he changed his this stance , He also said that ahmadies remain silent from 1922 till 1954 .
    What a liar this man is ? a little knowledge is always dangerous .
    Let me show a definition of the Kaffir from hazrat Mirza Basher ul deen (rz) own words .
    He said in his sermon

    http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7489/page1i.jpg
    http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9752/page2m.jpg
    http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3145/page3lh.jpg
    http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9540/page4nu.jpg

    [b]“there is lot of difference in the definition of the KUFFIR between ahmadies and non ahmadies they consider the meaning of KAFFIR as the denial of islam , but we do not give this meaning to word kafir.”[/b]
    “We believe that after a certain limit a man get a right of being called as MUSLIM ,but when he degrade even from that limit , though he can be called a Muslim but he cannot be considered a TRUE MUSLIM . this is our definition of KUFFER and ISLAM.”
    Further he (rz) said .
    “According to this definition we do not say every KAFFIR will go to the hell for eternity. We do not call in this sense even Jews and Christians as KAFFIR we believe one day GOD will free them from hell and will enter them in the paradise. ”
    [b]“there is lot of difference between their and out definition of KUFFIR ”[/b]

    he (rz) then said
    “again I pronounce we do not give KUFFIR that meaning which they (other Muslims ) give. According to us ,the term KUFFIR is applicable after a certain limit. When a person consider ISLAM as his religion and quranic commands as his manual of action , he gets the right of being called as the MUSLIM but in TRUE SENSE he becomes MUSLISM when he acts on the Islamic teachings, but when he denies of some fundamental of islam then HE IS CALLED A MULSLIM but in TRUE SENSE he does not remain a Muslim ”
    [b]“we do not consider KAFFIR is the one who rejects Hazrat MUHAMMAD (saw) as a prophet – when some one say that I believe in hazrat Muhammad (saw) then who else can say that you do not believe in hazrat Muhamamd (saw)… in our opinion denying of some fundamental of islam is KUFFIR and such a person cannot be a TRUE MUSLIM ”
    “if that definition of KUFFIR is used which these Muslims do , then , according to that definition , in our opinion , there is no KAFFIR in Christians , Hindus , Jews, and other non muslims ”

    Above is taken from the sermon of hazrat mirza basher ul deen (rz).
    http://alislam.org/urdu/khm/KM16-17.pdf

    above sermon is clearly telling us that according the hazrat Musleah Maood ‘s (rz) a person will remain Muslim . however, he does not remains a true Muslim . Denial of hazrat messiah Maood (as) makes the musilm a kaffir in that sense and not in the sense of non Muslim .
    a person becomes a NON MUSILIM only when he says that I am leaving the islam , until he calls himself a muslims no one has the right to make him non muslim.

  30. @farhan
    Farhan you said in the end of your post .

    “To my Ahmadi readers, do not accept this aggressive declaration of Kufr from those whom you invest your faith in. Instead, leave this false prophet and his misguidance and embrace the traditional path of Islam. Islam is in your blood, take back what Mirza Ghulam stole from you. I would be honored to call you my brother- not in Ahmadiyya- but in Islam.”

    My simple question is . Are we aggressive or u guys are aggressive in terming peoples non mulsims and kaffir. According to ur brothers in islam this hadith makes muslism KAFFIR every day , 5 times a day .
    قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن العهد الذي بيننا وبينهم الصلاة فمن تركها فقد كفر
    While we ahmadies have a mild approach and say that such a person cannot become NON MULISM , ur brothers says No he become non mulims
    Instead of wasting time in telling ahmadies to leave ahmadiyyat, it is better ,u educate ur people that they should not be so harsh in their view. And if u consider their view of a Muslim becoming NON MUSLIM right , then how ahmadies commited a greast sin of terming other kaffirs .
    This terming KUFFIR is what being done every day , every where in islam . If ahmadies added a little bit share in it , then why u are getting provoked ,
    In your religion every day millions of people becomes kaffir, if ahmdies added in that amount some more kaffir then why it is hurting you. ?

  31. @khalid nawaz

    you ran away from the forum without amnswering my questions and re-surfaced here with a new “pious” face. your hypocrisy is infinite. mirza kazzab called kafir anyone and everyone who did not believe in him to what he claimed to be. what do you have to say about that?

    • believe me , i do not read what u wrote at all . the reason is very simple one—- ur disgusting language about my Messiah .

      i gave the reason in forum that i am going because i am to appear in the exam. should i show u that statement ?

      • @khalid nawaz

        your “messiah” mirza kazzab has repeatedly used the filthiest language, the language of prostitutes and others. be grateful that this forum does not use that kind of dirty language and allows you to express yourself. now go back and answer those questions.

    • @peacelover Less but Dirty tongue
      Plz reply my question that will be the answer of my question
      If Isa(as) come back or Imam Mahdi will come, those who will reject Him(as). What will be their status ?

      What sin Satan did. Just rejection of Khalifa tullah?.
      Is it possible that Almighty Allah sending His(swt) khalifa and permitting Muslim they may reject Him(as)?

      Plz reply my question, you will get you answer

      • eveyday millions of muslims become Kaffir by not offering prayer but no one write Blog on it , no Mullah ask to kill those people.
        but , alas, the enmity of true prophet i.e hazrat Messiah Maood (as) have caused so much hatred in their heart that they have no other work to do but to raise as much hatred as they can in the hearts of poor ignorant persons.

        and ironically they write at the end to leave ahmadiyyat because , ahmadiyyat terms the other muslims as KAFFIR,
        but , alas, they do not see that their own people make every muslim kaffir every day , 5 times a day .

        • @khakid nawaz

          what sort of argument is this? why mirzais must poke their nose in muslim affairs? go fly a kite.

        • Those Muslims who neglect their salah might well be committing an act of kufr, but they are not kaafir. For them to become kaafir, they would have to believe that salah was not part of being a Muslim. That is what Mirzologists do. They don’t neglect something, they reject the basic `aqeeda of Muslims. That is the difference. No more nonsense talk on “kaafir” from you please.

          • OHHH come on shahid , u r helping me ..
            the reason I put hadith was to prove that a person can commit KUFFIR yet he can remain Muslim .

            we consider other muslism , who deny hazrat messiah Maood (as) kaffir in this sense. Mr farhan should not be angry on this .

            case dismissed.

          • however a muslim who do not offer prayer really become NON MUSLIM ,
            then when the world sees millions of MUSLIM turning into NON MUSLIM ,and if ahmadiyyat added a little bit in that list , then Mr farhan must not have wrote this blog at all.

      • @thetruth (what an oxymoron!)

        for a mirzai to put the charge of “dirty tongue” tantamounts to blasphemy because than mirza kazzab with his dirtiest tongue ever is charged. so be careful.

        mirza kazzab has answered your question. instead of stupid following, sometimes read his pamphlets and books. you’ll know the real face of the kazzab. for an answer to the question you listed above, see Izala-e Auhaam 1891, p 171, RK 03 1984, and then p180 of the same book. if you have any shame you’ll never come back to this blog/forum, except for renouncing mirzaism.

  32. @khalid nawaz February 7, 2010 at 1:01 am

    “you stop poking nose in ahmadiyya affair .. then ask us to refrain to do so…”

    listen you despicable disciple of mirza kazzab, it was your dead head who started his pathetic play with islam and muslims. consequently, he was universally rejected by muslims. have some shame and think before what you write. your own transgression against muslims on this blog is intolerable. in the classic mirzai trait, do not exploit muslim goodwill, and goodness.

    why in the first place mirzais like you come to this blog? why don’t you start your own if you dare. oh yes, you started one like the office of amoor-e ama and shut it down after two months. traitors, liars, and cheaters like mirzais cannot stomach the truth. again, be grateful you have the freedom to write on this blog. do not abuse that freedom.

  33. It makes sense that a muslim becomes a non-muslim by totally givingup on salaat. What’s the purpose of Islam other than the worship of allah? Sa;aat is the foundation of the Islamic faith.

    The case with the ahmadis is that muslims remain as muslims although we reject a new prophet, i.e.

    ^ that is total nonsense. We have a new thread in the works that will explain this non-sense as promulgated by the mirza brothers.

    For example: If a muslim rejects the Prophet Aaron, that muslim becomes a Kafir–no doubt about it.

    The ahmadis are implying that we CAN reject MGA, but remain as muslims, that is a blatant lie…you only developed this line of reasoning in1954 when the pressure of the situation was so much that you had to adapt….Mahmud stole the LAM approach and passed it off as his own. –thats very gangster of him!

    He was a baaaaaaad man–see Cassuis Clay in the 1960’s

    • now where the condition “Totally give up salat came ” ? I think hadith is not saying TOTALLY . But anyway if u wanna make it Totally then u believe that millions of Muslim who do not offer prayers are NON MUSLIM. but why they still be termed As MUSLIM. ? why a separate amendment was not made in the definition of Muslim in Pakistani law .
      Muslim definition was changed , the one who deny the YOURS last meaning of Khatamuanabeen is NON MUSLIM (no where it is written explicitly , ). but that definition which is written explicitly of the KAFFIR , that is not offering the prayers is not included . what an irony ?

      2) We even do not take this KUFFIR as equal to NON MUSLIM . but equal to not True Muslim. the same is true for the definition of KAFFIR for those who reject hazrat Messiah Maood (as) all of them are kaffir, but they will carry the NAME of MUSLIM till when they call themselves Muslim . .

      3) Anyway , when you guys have millions of kaffir , being produced every week , every month , then if ahmadies added some more kaffir in it then what need arise to write a blog.

      if this is not the hatred then what else it is which causes to write blog on such issues which a happens daily in Muslim countries.
      every day millions of muslim become kaffir , sorry NON MUSILM ,but no one write about them and demand the killing of such APOSTATES .

      4) the Term KAFFIR is given a meaning and is defined by us , and we use that term in that meaning .
      What should i term people like u , who first show this term KAFFIR in out literature, then give it your meaning and create discord among people .
      You guys are totally dishonest .
      this blog was written to show people that ahmadies call other muslim Kaffir. had Farhan researched in which meaning we call them Kaffir. Where those meaning was mentioned ???
      keep your meaning with yourself , do not thrust those meaning on us.

      3) Rationlist u said hazrat Musleah Maood (as) changed his stance in 1954
      You are a liar, as i proved in earlier post which was totally ignored by you.Hazrat Muleah Maood (as) was very clear about his stance on the KUFFIR

      read it again here.
      http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7489/page1i.jpg
      http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9752/page2m.jpg
      http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3145/page3lh.jpg
      http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9540/page4nu.jpg

      by the way u left ahmadiyyat because u thought hazrat Musleah Maood (ra) changed his (rz) stance in 1954 (me lauging on this assertion , and should not i )
      Any one who will read the above sermon of 1935 , will laugh on ur knowledge like me .
      what a scholar u guys are .

      • @khalid nawaz

        you live in fools’ paradise, that “bahishti maqbara”, created by you for mirza kazzab. why do you feel uncomfortable there that you poke your nose in muslim affairs. just keep your mirzaism to yourself. your lengthy quotations and useless references do not carry any substance whatsoever. they are far removed from islam. go find yourself a board and preach your mirzaism. this is not the place for any mirzai. do you understand you are not wanted here. just go away. we muslims know what islam is. a melancholic mirzai, who pisses 100 times a day, and his despicable disciples have no credentials to address muslims. a kazzab can teach no truth.

        yes, you are most welcome if you want to learn about islam as a member of the worldwide 1.5 billion strong muslim ummah. but no, we will not tolerate your defense of mirzaism; your incessant disrespect for islam and muslims.

      • Why wont you answer my questions? How easy would it be to answer? This is what ahmadis do, they dont answer questions, and they do that habitually.

        In 1954, Mahmud Ahmad said that after 1922 he stopped using the word Kafir for non-ahmadis. It was probably because he wasnt getting the converts that he wanted, remember at this point ahmadiyyat hadnt infiltrated Africa, but he was cautious…he didnt make it an official policy until 1954…

        You also have not commented in terms of the statements of Mahmud Ahmad and Mirza Bashir from 1911 to 1922.

        I WILL ANSWER AGAIN FOR THE SAKE OF BREVITY.

        A muslim can become Kafir for a variety of reasons. Giving up salaat totally is one, not paying zakaat is another. These are gray areas……

        Rejecting a prophet is not a gray area, rejecting any prophet totally takes a muslim out of Islam. The writings of Mahmud and Bashir dwelled on this very topic for 11 years. They attacked muslims heavily, they wouldnt even allow ahmadis to marry other muslims, although the Quran strictly allows muslims to marry any other fellow muslim.

        Mahmud and Bashir wasnted isolation from islam. That strategy backfired in 1954, then again in 1974, then again in 1984….

        Get out of this family business, they are draining you of your money.

      • Some of us cant read urdu, you might wanna translate….havent you figured that out yet???

        I am a pakistani/american muslim who grew up as as ahmadi. You cant fool me!!! I’ve been to all the jalsas, tarbiyyat camps, ijtemas, trust me, i know ahmadiyyat inside and out.

        START ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS!!!!!!

        • Rationalist said
          “In 1954, Mahmud Ahmad said that after 1922 he stopped using the word Kafir for non-ahmadis. It was probably because he wasnt getting the converts that he wanted, remember at this point ahmadiyyat hadnt infiltrated Africa, but he was cautious…he didnt make it an official policy until 1954”
          Funny guy , how u learnt that probably it was changed to get more converts .
          Can u enter into the mind of a person who have died and know when he said something then what his motive was.
          Come one , u cannot do it . so better stop issuing such statements which only shows ur hatred and nothing else.

          I can show u that u are wrong when u say that in 1922 he (rz) had different view and in 1954 he (rz) had different view. It is just your hatred which is causing you to write this,
          When my caliph categorically told the worldin 1935 that what he meant by KAFFIR .Then on what base u say that he (rz) changed his view
          You said.
          “The fact that mirza mahmud backpeddled in the statements made by him after the riots of 1954 made me leave Ahmadiyyat.”
          You also said .
          “you only developed this line of reasoning in1954 when the pressure of the situation was so much that you had to adapt….Mahmud stole the LAM approach and passed it off as his own. –thats very gangster of him!”
          Ohh we had to adopt under pressure… .. funny comment.
          The very reason of ur leaving ahmadiyyat is that in 1954 he (rz) changed his stance, which is a total wrong
          Because I have shown u that in 1935 hazrat Khalifatul Messiah (rz) stated his view categorically and which resembles with his subsequent view on 1954.
          http://alislam.org/urdu/khm/KM16-17.pdf

          Your allegation on hazrat khalifatul messiah of telling a lie is totally baseless and biased.
          He (rz) said
          http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7489/page1i.jpg
          http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9752/page2m.jpg
          http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3145/page3lh.jpg
          http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9540/page4nu.jpg
          “there is lot of difference in the definition of the KUFFIR between ahmadies and non ahmadies they consider the meaning of KAFFIR as the denial of islam , but we do not use KAFIR in this meaning “
          U can read URDU and ENGLISH , it would not be difficult for you to see the meaning of passage.
          Is not it saying the same thing which was said In 1954 ?
          U failed in proving your point and giving wrong meaning to the statements of the hazrat Khalifatul messiah (rz).
          When a person has himself clarified that in which sense he has been and is using a term then no sane person should ignore those meaning.
          He (rz) then said again
          “We believe that after a certain limit a man get a right of being called as MUSLIM ,but when he degrade even from that limit , though he can be called a Muslim but he cannot be considered a TRUE MUSLIM . this is our definition of KUFFER and ISLAM.”

          Again the same thing that one who calls himself a MUSLIM should be called with the name MULIM and should be considered a MUSLIM , however if he do something against the basics of the islam then he become kaffir in a sense he does not remain a true muslim .
          We used this term KAFFIR always in this sense. Any one who calls himself a mulsim should be given his right of being a muslim , u cannot term him NON MUSLIM and devoid him of his right of being a muslim.
          However if he denies fundamental of islam then u can say him not a true muslim . but his rights of being a muslims should not be ignored.
          Just read above and compare it with ur statement
          “but he was cautious…he didnt make it an official policy until 1954…”
          I need not repeat my statements again and again . I proved from the statements.

          All those who deny the prophet hood of hazrat Messiah Maood (as) are kaffir, answerable to the GOD . and they will surely get punishment in after world . but as long as they call themselves muslims no one should call them non Muslims and devoid them of their rights as being a muslim.

          Then u said that on person can become a NON MUSLIM by not offering prayer. Also by not giving ZAKAT .
          So if this is your view and islam is making millions of person KAFFIR everyday then what the purpose of pointing that ahmadies also calls other person KAFFIR .
          When every day , 5 times a day people are becoming KAFFIR (NON MUSLIM ) then what if ahmadies are also adding some share in it. ?
          U should be angry only in the case if all were mulsim and only ahmadies called musilm with KAFFIR.
          It is beyond my understanding why FARHAN took time to tell the world that we call other KAFFIR.
          When his own religion is making people kaffir 5 times a day .

          At the end u said that you know the ahmadiyyat inside out and I cannot fool you .
          But dear , u make urself a fool by issuing a statement that in 1954 hazrat khalifatul messiah changed his view on KUFFIR
          A blatant lie which shows ur real knowledge and scholarly abilities, in the presence of this sermon fo 1935
          http://alislam.org/urdu/khm/KM16-17.pdf

          • I can’t read urdu as I have explained earlier, why dont you translate the pages that you have posted?

            You still havent answered any of my questions. I wonder why?

            A muslim who stops praying altogether is losing his grip on Islam. He is heading towards KUFR. Not paying zakat is another instance of being “on the way out”.
            There are some gray areas that exist here.

            The rejection of any prophet! THERE IS NOTHING GRAY THERE AT ALL. If you reject a prophet, you are done with Islam altogether, you are no longer a muslim. It simple.

            You are inferring that we can reject MGA and remain as muslims. That is nothing but a lie. From 1911 to 1922 the mirza brothers never wrote anything to the effect that muslims become non-momins by rejecting MGA.

            In 1954 when Mahmud Ahmad answered as such:

            Q. When the use of word ‘kufr’ is likely to generate misunderstanding and bitterness, will it not be better either to drop its use or use it sparingly?

            A. We have been trying to use it sparingly since 1922.

            The fact that he said that he has been using it sparingly shows the trend and theory that the mirza brothers adapted.

            As far as your other comments are concerned. Most researcher come to conclusions based on research. My research shows that after 1922, Mahmud started to dial down his approach of attacking muslims.

            You continue to write that Mahmud Ahmad meant Kafir in the sense of non-momin. In 1911, when Kamaluddin wrote the same, Mahmud Ahmad very upset, in 1922 he remarked that this statement of Kamaluddin was incorrect. Later in 1954, he adopted the exact same stance.

            ONCE AGAIN, WHAT WERE THE LAM AND AMC ARGUING ABOUT IN TERMS OF KUFFAR FROM 1911 TO 1954??

          • i am sorry i considered u can read urdu but u said i am pakistani /american muslim which gave me illusion that u can read urdu.

            but then how u come to reach conclusion that in 1954 hazoor changed his stance , when u cannot read urdu and when u did not read any of his other publication ?

            do not u think ur researched had the flaw?

            any way the passages which i wanted to show were translated by my in my very first post in which i gave link
            u can should see that post
            it will not be possible for me to translate the whole sermon and also there is no need to translate the whole sermon as well.

  34. @peacelover Less but Dirty tongue
    you dont reply my question but you ask me to read some that book, i read that page, but don’t find any thing what you want to show me, may be your referece is wornge.
    but my question is still there
    If Isa(as) come back or Imam Mahdi will come, those who will reject Him(as). What will be their status ?

    • why should we answer your questions when you refuse to answer ours???

      1. Why were the LAM and the AMC arguing from 1911 to 1954 in terms of the status of the ones rejected MGA?

      2. Is there any other prophet that we can reject, yet still remain muslims?

      3. Can I reject Hazrat Aaron and remain a muslim? What about Hazrat John (yaya)?

      When Jesus returns to this planet, his return will be an awesome event, muslims will accept him, there isnt one hadith that states to the contrary, Jesus’ main object will be to exterminate/set-straight Christianity and Judaism, Christianity had faltered and raised Jesus to godhood, the jews had tried to hang Jesus. Jesus was to return to set these people straight!

      ^that was the mission of Jesus, the main mission at least!

  35. rationalist
    from thetruth
    admin is not allowing me to answer you,
    this is proof that this site is open only for liars
    1. you don’t reply the quest
    what is the status of those who will reject the Isa(as) on his coming back??????????????
    just answer about those!,
    who will accept him, Allah knows batter who will accept him and who will reject him,
    in the past never it happen that when any prophet came and every one accepted him, never it happen and cant happen in future,
    as you are waiting for Isa(as), in the past Jewish were waiting for the same one but when He came, they reject him all together, even they were the 1st enemy of Jesus (as). and try to kill there messiah,
    Holy Prophet (saw) told in hadith that my Ummah will follow the footsteps of Jews,
    if they rejected their messiah and Muslims going to accept their messiah, then what is similarity in both Ummah?
    please reply both question, you will find answer of you questions in you reply,

    [admin: You are not blocked.]

    • speaktruth (shame upon you for your lies)

      whosoever you may be, one thing is sure: you are a liar in the footsteps of your “prophet” who was a liar, head to toe.

      why in the world you said you were blocked by the admin? the block is in your mind. read the note by the admin.

      shall i send 1000, yes 1000 LAANAT upon you, and the entire mirzaidom, and count each and everyone of it like mirza kazzab did?

      you are such a miserably ungrateful mirzai! your own living head, masroor, does not allow you a blog like this. then you come here. abuse and insult muslims. in spite of it all we tolerate you. but you, in your inherent hatred for muslims, accuse them and tell big lies.

    • Let me get this straight. I have answered all of your questions. But, you still wont answer mine….

      Hazrat Muhammad (saw) taught us to use self-restraint when dealing with the ignorant.

      1. The impression that I get from the hadith books is that when jesus returns he will provide peace and tranquility for the entire planet, he will end the jizyah, as well as end the HARB(wars). He will convert the entire planet to Islam. Nobody ever thought that he would be unanimously rejected by 1.5 billion muslims.

      Here is the hadith:

      Abu Daud:

      Book 37, Number 4310:
      Narrated Abu Hurayrah:
      The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

      POINTS WORTHY OF NOTE:
      1. No prophets between them
      2. He will fight for the cause of Islam
      3. He will obliterate Christianity and Judaism
      4. All wars will end
      5. No one will pay jizyah, BECAUSE EVERYONE WILL BECOME MUSLIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      6. He will live for 40 years.
      6.a. FYI: MGA prophecized that he would live for 40 years after his claim to mujadid-ship circa 1882. MGA was indirectly referring to this hadith.
      7. When he dies…muslims will lead his janaza, the whole world would be muslim

      In summary, your question doesnt make any sense at all. It is obvious from an elementary study of Jesus in Islam that when Jesus returns he will be successful within 40 years.

      WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO —CIRCA 1883

      • waoo rationalist , u told us a fairy tale.
        but let me remind u that Jews (whom you all are to follow inch by inch as per the prophecy of Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (saw) )
        are still waiting for such a prophet that will give wealth and leadership of whole world without doing nothing.

        i see no difference between your wishes and wishes of Jews regarding their Messiah .

        before their Messiah comes , Prophet ALIYA will come down from sky
        and your Messiah will personally come from sky to save both nations from hardship

        • Should we throw away these hadith reports? I mean, what do you want us to do? You are laughing at Islam, you are saying that Islam is stupid. I didnt collect the hadith reports. These wonderful men spent 10+ years in this work.

          Nowadays ahamdis are calling Islam as stupid. That is very odd. You are promoting a new way of thinking that goes against the consensus of opinion. Were all the mujadids wrong? Were all of them not guided by allah? If so, then why did allah send them?

          You wanted an answer, I gave you one. What I told you is the islamic position, take it or leave, DONT ADJUST IT TO FIT YOUR ECONOMIC PLAN. Wait, MGA already did that!

          MGA wasnt even able to put a dent in hinduism, not to mention sikhism. What is this prophets worth? He wasnt even able to rid the indian sucontinent of idol worship and other crazy religions. Then you tell us that we dont even have to accept him. He is the only prophet in the history of Islam, which is adam to the HP that muslims dont need to accept…. that doesnt make any sense at all..obviously its a lie.

          All the hadith reports point towards a fantastic victory by the messiah and the mahdi. MGA falls well short of that.

          • Mr rationlist , there are hundred thousand other prophet other then prophet hazrat Muhammad (saw).

            what those prophet did ? did they all succeeded like hazrat muhammad (saw)?

            u asked hazrat messiah Maood (as ) did not put a dent in hinduism and idol worship still continues in hindustan. ?
            what about other prophets ?

            In hadith , hazrat Muhammad (saw) said i saw group of prophet who were single and not a single man accepted them .

            such prophets could not even cause single man to accept them but they are still prophets.

            so ur logic of not causing a dent in hindoism is quite flimsy
            first deny those prophets who were single (and off course become kaffir ) then say that until and unless a prophet completely destroys other religion he cannot be considered a prophet.

        • Khalid Nawaz,
          Lets suppose this narration is a metaphor. Please explain to me how one would express such a belief literally?

          If its a mere question of adding “and this is literal”, then shouldn’t the Prophet SAAWS have also said “and this is a metaphor”?

          Please explain.

          • I do not think so one ever need to add the word
            “it is literal ” and “its metaphor ” , to describe the intention of his statement.
            You can easily judge it using the relative data and using the little common sense.
            read this ayyat

            It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are a garment for you, and you are a garment for them. ………………….
            [2:188]

            GOD said in above ayyat regarding wives
            ” They are a garment for you, and you are a garment for them”

            GOD did not needed the addition of “O Mulisms !its a metaphor ” . every person can understand the metaphorical nature of the statement.
            see this hadith

            (1) Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet came to some of his wives among whom there was Um Sulaim, and said, “May Allah be merciful to you, O Anjasha! Drive the camels slowly, as they are carrying glass vessels!” Abu Qalaba said, “The Prophet said a sentence (i.e. the above metaphor) which, had anyone of you said it, you would have admonished him for it”. (Book #73, Hadith #170)

            hazrat Muhammad (saw) called women as GLASSES

            and we can easily understand that here it is used as a metaphor. not in literary sense.

            for above hadith to be a metaphor , the first thing will be to decide is the prophet Essa (as) alive or dead ?
            If he (as) is dead , as we all ahmadies believe .

            then we should either reject the coming of MESSIAH , as a part of Muslims believes that Mahdi and messiah is fabricated characters and no one will come.
            In pakistan , GHAMDI and Talu e islam(ahle quran sect ) carry this belief .

            OR
            we should take the metaphorical meaning of the Jesus return and subsequent prophecies relating to his coming .

            we follow the second part .
            I hope u know that the same thing happened in the hazrat Essa (as) time as well.
            Jews believed in the literary coming of Prophet Eli’jah but hazat Essa (as) termed his return as a metaphorical return.
            also the prophecies regarding the coming of hazrat Essa (as) are defined in accordance with the law of the GOD if u take is metaphorically . If u are bent upon taking the literary meaning then you should also believe that Jesus himself will kill
            1) swine.
            2) spend time breaking the cross
            3) will kill people using his breath etc etc.
            (please remember jesus have to do this work alone , no help from any other , after all the hadith is literary talking about Jesus doing himself )

            is above the work of a Prophet?

            and Mr rationlist ignored the hadith words which states the when the jesus will die , he will be buried in the grave of the hazrat Muhammad (saw) .
            i hope u will not take the literary meaning of this burial else u have to dig the grave of hazrat muhammad (saw) , which no Muslim can ever think of .

            we believe that above part is also a metaphorical nature.

      • @Rationalist February 10, 2010 at 10:46 pm
        thanks very much for referring me a hadith, but still you don’t reply my question, even if you believe that all Christians and Jews will accept Islam but there are many who don’t believe on God, may be any will reject Jesus(as), plz define his status?
        reply for you points
        1. yes, its correct,
        2. yes, but there are many types of fight, (if some one fight with sword, He should fight with sword, if someone fight with knowledge, he should fight with knowledge(pen)). but if some one is not fighting with sword, it is not allowed in Islam to fight with sword,
        “And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.[2:191]”
        3. yes, but its not mean that Christianity and Jews will finish physically but Jesus (as) will converts many of them and will proof their believes are wrong.( like we proof that god of Christian is dead, and Christianity is depends on life of Jesus).
        plz read this hadith and explain me why Christians are in majority on last hour(quamat).
        (sahih muslim kitab ul fitan)
        Chapter 10: THE LAST HOUR WOULD COME WHEN THE ROMANS WOULD HAVE THE MAXIMUM POPULATION
        ——————————————————————————–
        Book 041, Number 6925:
        Mustaurid al-Qurashi reported: I heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would come (when) the Romans would form a majority amongst people. ‘Amr said to him (Mustaurid Qurashi): See what you are saying? He said: I say what I heard from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). Thereupon he said: If you say that, it is a fact for they have four qualities. They have the patience to undergo a trial and immediately restore themselves to sanity after trouble and attack again after flight. They (have the quality) of being good to the destitute and the orphans, to the weak and, fifthly, the good quality in them is that they put resistance against the oppression of kings.
        http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/041.smt.html
        continue p-2

        • part-2
          4. all wars will end, yes.
          before coming of Jesus(as) religion wars were open but in the time of coming Jesus(as) there will be no war, and Imam Mahdi(as) told don’t fight with any one for killing, this is the time of jihad only with pen or knowledge, because everywhere we have the freedom of religion, no body stop you to recite kalma shahadat, no body stop you to pray salat, no body stop to warship Almighty Allah, when there is nobody killing you just because of practicing your religion, you are not allow to kill any one,
          and result we have seen, every one who believe that war on the name of religion is continue, he is called terrorist, but not a true Muslim,
          5. no one will pay juzya,yes, because physical jihad is conditioned until they pay jizya, and when physical jihad is not allowed, jizya will finish automatically,
          you understand that every one will become Muslim, this is against the teaching of Holy Book, read these plz
          [11:119] And if thy Lord had enforced His will, He would have surely made mankind one people; but they would not cease to differ,
          [3:87] ………………….. And Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
          there are many verses that told people will never become one, they will live divided forever, if you are interested i can send you many verses about this,

          before coming of last hour, there will be no Muslim left behind, no one will believe in Allah swt then this earth will be distorted, how it possible that when every one will accept Islam then Allah swt will destroy them all,
          “[11:118] And thy Lord would not destroy the cities unjustly while the people thereof were righteous.”
          Jesus is cumming to kill swin but not to kill Satan, when Satan is there how can every one become true Muslim, even in the sahab there were hypocrites, even they were the best companions on the earth.
          continue p3

          • The wars didnt end by the magic wand of MGAm WWI and WWII happened after the death of this charlatan.

            MGA twisted a hadith to try end jihad. The hadith doesnt say jihad, it says end HARB/JIZYAH.

            Are you trying to prove that everyone wont be muslim? Sorry, you half wit, but this is what the hadith show us.

            Once again, you and your ahmadis have discredited hadith YOU NEVER ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS. I cant even think why I asked you to do so. Ahmadis dont answer questions, this is Masroor’s policy!!!

            If any person rejects even one prophet of allah then that person becomes a Kafir. Not a no-momin, A KAFIR.

            But, Mahmud Ahmad lied and said that the rejection of MGA makes one a non-momin, that is a lie. He backpeddled.

            FYI: all wars didnt end with the coming of MGA, they have gotten worse in fact.

            MGA has also claimed to be the second coming of Krishna, yet not more than 1000 hindus had converted to ahmadiyyat. It seems like Krishna failed!!!!!!!

  36. @peacelover Less but Dirty tongue
    “Allah would not leave the believers as you are, until He separated the wicked from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messengers. If you believe and be righteous, you shall have a great reward. [3:180]”

    Allah swt never allow anyone to decide about other, are they wicked or good, if you are believer of Holy Book.

    2. your way of speaking is not according to the Holy Prophet(saw). who is your teacher?
    your way of writing is Satanic but not according to the sunnah, or not according to the teaching of Islam.
    3. observe your behaviour is it behaviour of laanti or not?

    • @rationalist
      i am afraid when i see your understanding level for hadith and Holy Quran,
      can you explain me these to hadith in literal way as you explain hadith about imam mahdi(as),
      because in 1st hadith it is mentioned that last hour will affect most wicked persons, and in next hadith it is mentioned that last hour is close to the Holy Prophet(saw), if i take these hadith literal way then last hour yet not come so this prophecy is not fulfilled literally, 2nd that sahabah will be the wicked, i would like you explain this in literal way for me plz
      shahih muslim kitab ul fitan
      Chapter 25: APPROACH OF THE LAST HOUR
      Book 041, Number 7043:
      Abdullah reported Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would affect (most terribly) the wicked persons.
      Book 041, Number 7044:
      This hadith has been reported by Sahl b. Sa’d that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I and the Last Hour are (close to each other) like this (and he, in order to explain it) pointed (by joining his) forefinger, (one) next to the thumb and the middle finger (together).
      ———————————-
      about end of war, there are many hadith mention about last hour, that (kitaal) murder is the one of sign of last hour, 2nd if there is no war near last hour, then how they can wicked, they should be the best peace living people on the earth, because from the Adam(as) we know series of kital is continue and those will live in peace and Almighty Allah give them the name of wicked people,
      bro, only those will be saved from war those who will believe Imam Mahdi(as), and an ahmadi never can create a war because of teaching of Imam Mahdi,
      Holy Prophet(saw) start many things in His teaching but not for non believers, those were affect only believers but not non believers.
      please watch this video and compare your understanding with Jews understanding about prophecies told for there messiah?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbMO_zWp_lo
      can you explain the Jews that why Jesus(as) is their true messiah?
      i cant understand your question you claim that we dont reply you?

    • @speaktruth (something you never do, kazib)

      1001 laanat upon you and your so-called “prophet,” the lapdog of the british colonials who called all muslims haram zada while he himself was so. before you dare to tell anyone about speaking and writing, go and teach some basics of human behavior to your self-styled “prophet.” your pseudo prophet is not expected to teach you manners. you need to abandon mirzaism before you can be viewed as a civilized person. say sayonara to the progeny of prostitute, the arch enemy of islam, the liar of the millennium.

  37. @rationalist
    [3:8] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. —

    what are the (mutshabehat) susceptible?

      • the way Mr peacelover abuse hazrat MEssiah maood (as) in each and every sentence also proves that he wrongly attribute himself to islam, as true Islam does not teach such way .

        So Mr Peaclover , what is your cult? (devise a unique name )

        • @khalid nawaz

          nobody beats mirza kazzab qadiani in abusive language. nobody. he turns out to be the head of your cult. just reflect how far you have drifted from islam.

          • @peaceofhate
            if someone leave islam is a kafir or jahil and if someone leve ahmadiyyat is righteous, woh,
            who told you about this?

    • And this website is a safe haven for victims of the mirzai family. It’s almost like the battered womens association.

      We were robbed of our money, one family got rich, nasir ahmad went to oxford, tahir ahmad went to england and spent his days hitch-hiking instead of studying. While back in qadian, mahmud was having orgies…

  38. @speaktruth (you don’t)

    listen you despicable disciple of mirza kazzab qadiani, when someone leaves mirzaism he/she becomes muslim because mirzaism is NOT ISLAM. it is the cult of yalash, mirza kazzab’s own invented god. it is upto you to join the civilized world or remain in the blood-$ucking cult.

  39. [3:180] Allah would not leave the believers as you are, until He separated the wicked from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messengers. If you believe and be righteous, you shall have a great reward.

    if you’re a believer of this Holy Book, then obey this verse and explain what is you source to know about unseens?

    • @speaktruth (you cannot afford to)

      don’t touch the holy book of muslims. just keep this non-debate to your “we will what we can do” brand of english, as taught to you by mirza kazzab qadiani. after all, pissing 100 times a day, coupled with diarrhea and other full catalog of diseases cannot keep you fit to write sanely. get lost. ask the current cult head, masroor, to give you some charity to start your own blog. hee hee.

      • you cant face the truth, the truth of Holy Book,
        dont always find the way to run, try to open your eyes and try to face the truth, truth is always hard, but it is better, so try to explain this verse and your believe, because both are not similar.
        where it is mentioned that only jahil muslims can tuch this book but not true muslims can do this.

        • @speaktruth (you never)

          tadhkirah is the holy book of mirzais that comprises of yalashic revelations and dreams of mirza kazzab qadiani. don’t hide that. quote from your holy book and not from quran, the holy book of muslims. and, as a basic courtesy, learn to answer questions. if you cannot then go elsewhere.

          • Holy Quran is the book of Rabul alameen, it is not from Rabul muslimeen, when Almighty Allah is the Rabb for every body then how the Book of Allah swt is only for muslimeen.
            about tazkirah, is a tafseer of Holy Quran, have no compition with Holy Book, but this tafseer is about your level, like a literal (uneducated) cant understand about the books about PHD

  40. i have a question for all the Qadiany lost souls out there ur false prophet wrote in a book dated 1891 ” if any man claims prophethood after RassuAllah is a Liar Kafir and a Dajjal” but the lunatic goes out of his way and in 1901 claims full prophethood for himself so was he lying when he said there can be no prophet after RassuAllah ? and do prophet lie on thier own statements ?

  41. so according to the Qadiany Mirzology we muslims who follow the teaching of RasulAllah and believe he was the last prophet are all Kafir ?????

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