This was a brief, impromptu talk at the Tooting Islamic Centre. It includes around half an hour of Q&A, with a Qadiani who said “I’m an Ahmadi Muslim”. We welcomed him and I commended him on his presence. He referred to us as his “brothers”. There’s always a chance when you hear that.
Jazakallah khayr to all the Muslim brothers who were so hospitable and especially to Shaykh Suliman Gani who invited me.
Introduced by Shaykh Suliman, I reflected again on my reversion to Islam. Lots of people have heard about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, but most of the audience had little knowledge about Ahmadiyya. I’m working on changing that, insha’Allah, through these talks at various mosques. I hope that when Ahmadis/Mirzais realise that Islam is not a threat to them, rather, that Islam is their birthright and that they will be welcomed as brothers and sisters when they revert, more will start appearing, just as more and more are reverting after researching Ahmadiyya and Islam with an open mind on-line. Wallah, the Internet was the worst thing that could ever happen to Qadianism.
I hope you’ll enjoy the talk.
Audio of talk at Tooting Islamic Centre
(Image of Tooting Islamic Centre by user “plasmatika” on Flickr, re-used under Creative Commons License)
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{ 59 comments… read them below or add one }
Just finished listening. I’m glad how polite you were with that Ahmadi questioner. He seemed like a nice fellow.
@Shahid,
Your: “Wallah, the Internet was the worst thing that could ever happen to Qadianism.”
FYI, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said, “modern means of communication, such as modern postal system and telegraph (and now its sequel internet) are invited for me”. He meant with this his message will spread to world, and clear misunderstandings about him. And lies of mulla-mafia will be exposed.
Yes, you are correct. Internet is worst thing for Qadianism. Qadianism is religion and set of beliefs of Qadianis, whose khalifa 5 is sitting in safety in London. Internet, is also exposing lies of Mulla-mafia. This is the reason that even people like Mulla leader Anjum Chaudhry in UK, is saying that, we only preach Islam peacefully in UK.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad message of peaceful preaching of Islam is spreading in the world through internet. And his followers in Lahoris i.e. LAHORE AHAMDIYYA MOVEMENT message is spreading in world through internet that Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS is THE LAST PROPHET OF ALLAH SWT, and NO new or old prophet can come after him.
Internet is doing 4 things:
1)Exposing Qadianis.
2)Exposing Mulla-Mafia, especially those in UK.
3)Clarifying misunderstanidng created about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
4)Propagating interpertation of Islam, explained by Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement.
@Straight Talker.
do u belong to the lahore ahmadiya movement?
^ Indeed. Brother Shahid, did you talk to the Ahmadi brother after the talk? P.S. Good job with the talk.
Jazakallah khayr. Yes, I invited him to the next session. I’m hoping he won’t try to attack my integrity at the next session, but of course, that would be a sign of utter failure for Ahmadism. They’ve tried it before, they’ll try it again. Ever time they attack me, it strengthens me and puts another nail in the coffin of their credibility.
Let’s see if he comes again. He would be most welcome. If he reverts to Islam, he will join, alhamdulillah, a long line of people who at first didn’t like what I was saying, but eventually not only agreed with me, but became Muslims.
Hidaayah of course comes from Allah (SWT) alone.
I think you are doing a service to the Jamaat as well. I would also like people to be more curious about Ahmadiyya Islam and try to learn about us in an unbiased way.
I agree with you. There should be no bias, only a desire to reach the truth.
^ Brother Lutf, all we ask is for followers of Ahmadiyya to read the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Yes we point out discrepancies we find or views we disagree with but all we ask is for each individual to reflect and analyse his writings for themselves.
Yes Indeed. Those Ahmadis who do not read the books of Promised Messiah (as) are ignoring their duty as ahmadis. Sometimes such allegations cause them to start reading the books and this helps them find more conviction of faith as a result.
Yes, Ahmadis should read Mirza’s books – if they can read Urdu, Arabic and Persian and plough through all that plagiarised and hateful verbiage. I recommend they read translations of Seerat ul-Mahdi too. Have a look at how Mirza plagiarised his Arabic work, especially the tiny booklet Seerat al-Abdaal, and show he stole his central thesis from Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan.
Read how he praised Queen Victoria’s empire in the most fawning and obsequious language instead of inviting her to Islam with dignity. Try and square his claim of prophet-hood with his life’s major task of defending the British Empire against the Muslims he called dirty and Satanic.
Then compare and contrast the life, character and output of this charlatan Mirza Ghulam to the greatest man who ever walked the earth, Rasulullah (saw) – and try not to be sick.
As you well know by your last-ditch efforts to stop your cohorts from rejoining the ranks of the Muslims and abandoning your cult, when Ahmadis read Mirza’s work and reflect with sincerity, praying for guidance, they tend to leave the falsehood of Mirza and revert to Islam. Sadly for you, none of your attempts to throw sand in the eyes or avoid all of the real issues seems to be helping your cause.
@Tahir Hussain:
If you read with care, in context, with open and unbiased mind, with willingness to listen and accept which is against your conventional wisdom or “wisdom of your parents and ancestors”, and FEAR OF ALLAH in your heart, and moral courage to speak/ write with honesty…you will come with what Modern, honest, intelligent, intellectual, unbiased, Muslim scholars, especially those who have published their works on Islam in European languages and more so those whose works are published by Universities in Western Europe and North America, have come up with. These scholars have referred to works on Islam published by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad followers from LAHORE AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT.
This is the reason every month around 100 thousand pages from LAM website (i.e. the official website) are down loaded. There are other websites of LAM in many languages. BTW, LAM has only put SMALL FRACTION of their publications on internet. And InshAllah in next few years they will be able to bring their whole libraries Online for benefit of Muslims and non-Muslims.
See, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad prophecy that modern means of communication (including internet) was invented for him. His message is accepted by INTELLIGENT, HONEST, UNBIASED, MUSLIMS WHO HAVE FEAR OF ALLAH SWT IN THEIR HEARTS.
@ Straight Talker,
Too many times have I seen a false sense of intellectualism, rationalism and modernity coupled with profound ignorance be used as a pretext to dismiss dissenting views. I’m sorry, but our modern era does not have a monopoly on rationale or logic. Ahmadis, both Qadiani or Lahori, condescend traditional scholars of the past as mere “mullahs” or “old fashion”- ironically, both of these are ad hominems and are quite illogical.
I could give you an article on “Neo-patrimonialism in West African countries and its implications on Structure Adjustment Programs”. Likely you would not understand it. Not because you are unintelligent or irrational, but because you don’t have the background economic knowledge required to understand such a complex topic.
Background knowledge, such as basic maxims, research and analysis, history, scholarly opinions, etc are required to understand *any* subject. Part of respecting any field of study is to acknowledge its depth and breath.
But when it comes to the Qur’an, these self-proclaimed “modern”, “intelligent”, “educated”, “unbiased” folk think their unrelated secular education is sufficient to independently derive authoritative opinions from the Qur’an, and then argue that its the true interpretation based on “reason”. Its a sad reflection on their respect for the divine book.
@Farhan,
I have read books authored by Muslims on Islam, published by European universities and American universities. In their preface they acknowledge the HIGH QUALITY literature on Islam produced by LAM. They do this while acknowledging that they are declared “Kaffir” in Pakistan. Still they find themselves FORCED to refer to LAM publications and even provide refernces and bibliography.
Similarly, Al-Azhar University, which is definately MORE LEARNED THAN SHAHID and others like him, HAVE TRANSLATED LAM books into English. Those books are now distributed in Muslim Countries like Jordan under patronage of government. They are doing this despite knowing LIES SPREAD against MGA and LAM by LIARS in Muslim countries and Europe including UK and USA.
I challenege: You bring a single high quality book on islam, by any author Muslim or non-Muslim. I will point you out from where he got his arguments and from which LAM book, published atleast 50 years ago.
All i am saying, lets be honest ACKNOWLEDGE contributions of LAM and MGA in service of Islam. Because if people do that, they will STOP LYING.
You’ve been warned before – quit with the screaming caps. And stick to the topic of the post. This isn’t your blog, so please show some courtesy.
Are you not honestly not aware that there are literally thousands of high quality Islamic books produced in the modern era?
Here’s one:
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b8118.html
Here’s another:
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b4260.html
Very few outside of a few academic circles and the Indo-Pak community know about the Lahori community.
@Farhan:
“Very few outside of a few academic circles and the Indo-Pak community know about the Lahori community.”
My friend, You are wrong. What Woking mission did 100 years ago, none is doing it even now. Go to any good university in US and UK, and other European countries and you will find publications of Woking and LAM.
When scholars start writing on Islam, they just do not get “ilham”. They read and research. And their best source is libraraies. Even libraries in Arab countries e.g. Al-Azhar and central Asian Muslim countries have LAM literature.
You don’t know top learned scholars in Al-Azhar, Jordan and grand muftis in central asian muslim countries have tears in their eyes when they talk about people like Shahid Kamal behavior towards HMGA.
probably, you don’t know that LAM books published by non-Lahori-Ahamdi i.e. general muslims in countries like India are sold in pakistan and on internet websites. E.g. Muhammad in World Scriptures, Religion of islam etc. We are happy. This way Muslims who because of their ignorance oppose LAM and don’t even touch their literature, read the same books when published by others. InshAllah, if Allah SWT gives me time and money, i will publish LAM and Woking mission books under some organization name which doesn’t have word ‘Ahmadiyya’ in its name.
Farhan,
as i said, you please bring any good point from any high standard islamic book which in your opinion is new, and original, i will refer you to LAM literaure where that point is made.
I wish today, Kawaja Kamal ud Din was alive, in these times of Crisis on (poor) islam. He would have taken airwaves in the USA. he faced the same challenges with with much less resources in his time in UK. Still he was able to convert thousands of intellectual Britishers to Muslims.
@Farhan:
Hamza Yousaf, does not have courage to say it in public. But in private he highly praised religion of Islam and Holy Quran translation by Maulana Muhammad Ali.
FYI: Hamza Yousaf, in 1992 conducted my Nikkah in presence of over 150 people in a grand hotel in CA.
No more spam for your movement please. You Mirzais have the unmitigated gall to come to our sites to openly spread the nonsense of Mirza, you abuse people personally who respond with decency and yet you will not allow an open discussion of the filth of Mirza on your own sites? Shame on all of you! May Allah (SWT) open your hearts to the truth and guide you.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT
When ever Shahid Kamal, wants people to read Mirza Ghulam Ahmad books he ALWAYS (even in his audio of speech given in his above article) recommends audiance to read it on Qadianis website i.e. Al-Islam.
But he NEVER tells them to read Mirza Ghulam Ahmad books and his followers books and their TRANSLATIONS IN ENGLISH, on Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement website.
Looks like Shahid Kamal is REALLY SCARED of LAM literature. And MGA books English translations.
There are MANY TIMES MORE books of MGA on Official Website of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, AKA, ‘Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ishat-i-Islam, Lahore’.
NOTE: If i give link to VAST treasure of knowledge on Islam available on LAM official website, Shahid Kamal will delete my this post. So, you will have to google it. Thanks.
The reason I’ve never told people to go to the Lahori site is because I hardly ever think about the Lahoris, they are not a significant group, have almost no activity in the UK and are easy to ignore. Whilst I disagree with the Qadiani theology, at least they are congruent with their founder’s stated position, which makes them in my book, marginally less hypocritical. I find the Lahori grandstanding, hyperbole and challenges tedious frankly, but in that sense, you are merely echoing your founder’s distasteful, self-publicising style.
However, I’m happy to provide a link to the Lahori site here, which will no doubt surprise you.
The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement: http://aaiil.org/
@Shahid:
“Whilst I disagree with the Qadiani theology, at least they are congruent with their founder’s stated position,”
You are intelligent enough and know YOUR MARKETING TECHNIQUE. You know it is easier to sell your ideas, when you present MGA as understood by Qadianis, and practiced by their Qadiani khalifas. This is the reason, you always try to hide LAM. You know, if people come to know about LAM interpertation and beliefs about MGA, they will STOP opposing MGA and might get influenced by him. I am speaking from experience.
Just because in your judgemnt Qadianis “better” present MGA does NOT make true what you are saying. Your argument is tantamount to saying that Christians better present Hazrat Isa AS than Muslims.
Your example is like that of an ATHIEST, for whom it is much easier to punch, defame, malign, humiliate, make fun, insult Hazrat Isa AS (jesus) when he presents Hazrat Isa AS whose picture is drawn by Christians. But this atheist can NOT do the same to Hazrat Isa AS when he looks at picture of Isa AS presented by LAM.
There are TWO Messiah of Nazarth, and TWO Messiah of Muhammad.
It is easy to beat Missiah of Nazarth which is presented by Christians, and it is easy to beat Messiah of Muhammad which is presented by Qadianis.
Shahid you know how to find your WEAK OPPONENT!
Give it a rest. I should leave you to the likes of Lutf, who would tear your entire movement’s theology to pieces in about half an hour! Nobody takes you seriously.
As for insulting Isa (as), your founder was the best at that. It’s impossible to “better present MGA” – and that’s not what I said. I talked of congruence. A word you’ll probably need to look up.
I try to hide LAM? Are you serious? I don’t need any help with that, you’re pretty good at being invisible all by yourselves! And I gave a link to your website. Sorry, I’m not interested in promoting your insignificant sect, that’s your job, but please stop doing that from our blog. Use your own platform.
I’m not interested in marketing, only in truth. Now how about you stick to the topic?
@Shahid:
“I should leave you to the likes of Lutf, who would tear your entire movement’s theology to pieces in about half an hour!”
This is the reason, why i say: Qadianis and Mulla-opponents of MGA are ‘Bed-Fellows’. (By Mullah-opponents of MGA, i mean all oppoents of MGA).
It serves Qadiani khalifas when Mulla-oppnents of MGA insult MGA by presenting his picture drawn by Qadianis and their qadiani Khalifas.
just the way it serves atheist to insult Hazrat Isa AS, when they present his picture drawn by Christians.
” Nobody takes you seriously.”
This is exactly what athiest use to say to MGA, when atheist propaganda agaisnt Hazrat Isa AS was stopped by MGA.
@Straight Talker, do u belong to the lahore ahmadiyya movement?
My review:
Shahid continues to give excellent lecture on what is Ahmadiyyat. Insha-Allah one day I will have the strength to do the same.
1. When I was younger (11-22) I was told that prophethood was of many kinds. The two biggest kinds were “law-bearing” and “non-law bearing”. I was told that only type of prophethood had ended, i.e. law bearing. Obviously, this is how the qadianis rationalize MGA’s prophethood. The point that they miss is that all prophets followed ALLAH, whereas MGA followed the HP (in the qadiani mindset). In qadiani theology MGA was the first prophet who was made a prophet by follwing another prophet–as silly as that sounds.
2. In my honesty opinion MGA knew that claiming prophethood was a touchy subject. He slowly put it in his revelations, circa Braheen Ahmadiyya. In 1891, the ulama declared him a KAFIR because of the fact that in MGA’s revelations he had been called a prophet. MGA totally denied that he was a prophet, he argued that Allah was using metaphoric speech. The ulama wasnt buying it!!! 10 years later he wrote “Correction of an Error”, this is where he claimed prophethood, but he was very indirect, he was very tactical, he didnt want the ulama to notice, he tried to not make a big deal of it. He wanted to be a prophet badly, and he planned it perfectly, he planned it the same way that he planned becoming Esa ibn Maryam.
3. The ahmadi that commented was not very unusual, instead of asking a good question he attacked Shahid and asked him the name of the building that is behind the grave of Mirza Tahir Ahmad. He was basically calling Shahid a liar, he was claiming that Shahid had never done security at this grave site, he was claiming that if Shahid didnt know the name of the building, that meant that Shahid had never actually done any security at that site. This ahmadi used a countertactic of rhetorical questioning in an attempt to discredit Shahid.
3.a. This ahmadi was acting as if the most important question was the truthfulness of Shahid, the most important question should have been in terms of the truthfullness of MGA and Mirza Bashirruddin mahmud Ahmad.
WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO–CIRCA 1883
@ straightalker
The reason Shahid and other dont reference the LAM is because:
1. You are an insignificant brand of ahmadiyyat
Why didnt shahid mention the new group of ahmadis in Mauritius? Why didnt shahid mention the haqiqat pasand people.
The LAM needs to focus on the idea that maybe their founder was a charlatan, Muhammad Ali failed, Kwaja Kamaluddin failed, your entire movement has failed……. the musleh maud is not coming…just come back to Islam….
@Rationalist,
I don’t have answer for your DIRTY LANGUAGE and ABUSES for those who were highly praised in their life times for their services of Islam by fellow Muslims. Even those who had NOT joined LAM.
If you want to know why Shahid always hide LAM, see my reply to his comment, above.
For the last time, any more screaming capitals and you won’t get through the moderation.
i know first hand how ahmadis treat beards. i’ve had a beard for about a year and a half now, in the last year it got more “mullahish” as ahmadis would call it. what ahmadis failed to realize is that my beard is not “mullahish,” it’s “sunnahish.”
It’s like this, ahmadis want to disassociate themselves from other Muslims so they wear jinnah caps and grow goatees.
when i grew my beard, too many people mocked the sunnah (specifically the beard) which I now know is kinda kufr by itself. my beard has been disapproved of by several ahmadi youth, several jamia students and even two murabbis. it’s only been complimented by like 3 ahmadis.
i even wrote a four page letter to huzoor about how i was fed-up of how ahmadis don’t say anything to the majority who are dirty shaven yet when i grow my beard, it gets mocked. i just got the standard reply where his secretary said he’d pray for my studies which is a copy paste of what every other ahmadi student gets.
i know that the beard isn’t islam, the beard is simply in islam and is nowhere as important as namaz, rozey, being good to your parents and all that. but rasul ullahi sal allahu alayhi wa sallem said to not belittle good deeds, even if it’s greeting your brother with a smile. not only have ahmadis belittled my beard, they’ve ridiculed it. i wouldn’t be surprised if i greeted them with a smile, they’d be like “smiling’s for homos.” or “in the time of the prophet, smiling was very important but now it’s not.” or “even abu jahel smiled.”
i’ve come across every argument ahmadis give against the beard and they’re all weak. even MGA said he hated sitting with men who didn’t have beards. MTA said that no beard-less man should be allowed on stage. so this is no reason to leave ahmadiyyah but it is just one of the proofs of how ahmadis as people are just as messed as other muslims. they try to make it seem like they’re the perfect muslims and the other muslims are just being gay and worshipping shaytan all day but i’m amazed by some sunni brothers and their level of taqwa in comparison to ahmadis.
sorry for the rant, i thought i’d get that off my chest.
wasalamu alaykum wa rahmat ullahi wa barakatuh
Question:
Will Shahid Kamal in his next talk to Muslims on subject of MGA, ever mention LAM and their official website without belittling them, as LAM is “insignificant” or they do not “better” present MGA???
Remember, he wrote earlier today:
“However, I’m happy to provide a link to the Lahori site here, which will no doubt surprise you.”
Wow. Is there no limit to your blindness? I gave the link to your site in that comment! It is something you claimed I’d never do, but I had no problem doing.
If you want to publicise your marginal movement, you’re going to have to find your own platform.
@muslim first
Alaikum Salam wa rahmatulahi wa barakatuh,
I am not surprised at all about the big differences in the level of taqwa, sunnah and especially good character between ahmadis and muslims. When I was thinking about joining the cult, I noticed that Qadianis were neglecting the Sunnah on many points. Was this the reform of Islam and the re-establishment of the sunnah? I also asked about why they dont wear beards, because this was a Sunnah? Well, this was not important to them at all, and were giving references to the khalifa who let his beard grow only in his later life, and especially after he was appointed to this post. So growing beards is only when you become a khalifa?
Moreover I had the chance to attend the khuddam ahmadiyya convention of a country in Europe and I am sorry to say that I discovered that the character, taqwa , following the Sunnah of many qadianis were very low. I dont want to backbite here. At that time I was very shocked to see that officials were quarrelling with each other. This was my observation in comparison with real muslims.
wasalamu alaykum wa rahmat ullahi wa barakatuh
ahmadis portray sunnis as “mullahs” which might be true for some molvis in pakistan and india but the practicing muslims that i’ve met are great. they pay attention to the sunnah, they don’t try to negotiate their islam for the west, and most importantly they call towards tawheed and not towards wafat-e-masih and khatam-e-nabuwat.
@Shahid:
Please surprise me, by informing your audiance i.e. While preaching to your Choir, on subject of HMGA, by informing them of LAM and their official and UK websites…and making it clear to them that LAM hold belief that Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS is the LAST prophet of Allah SWT, in every sense of word Last.
^ What are you talking about? Why should brother Shahid do that? He is exposing Ahmadiyya and the references used are from the Qadiani website so for what reason should he mention Lahoris or their website? Which world are you living in? Thats like someone claiming he should mention Scientology because he is talking about cults. Grow up.
I think the Ahmadi brother present at the talk was wrong in questioning Shahid’s claims that he was an Ahmadi. A better approach would have been to investigate the circumstances of his leaving the Jamaat. I am very much sure it wasn’t due to deep study of literature or sudden revelation of the truth.
Dear Brother Straight Talker,
I welcome you to my website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com which generally has no reference to Qadianis or Lahoris. It is a pure presentation of beliefs of Hazrat Sb.
@ahmadibeliefs:
I know about your website. While posing as “follower of HMGA”, You present everything out-of-context.
You accuse LAM of having the belief about HMGA as you present it, but when asked, do you yourself hold the same belief about HMGA, your cat comes out of the bag.
I saw how you were stone walling every suggestion on LAM-UK blog.
First your translation was wrong, and title you gave was convaying absolute false meaning/impression. You refused to translate the whole poem to give a good refernce to context. You were not willing to put the whole page of poem; then you refused to provide link to the scanned page; then you refused to provide the link to the LAM-official website where BA is available on-line.
I can discuss with some one who is ignorent about certain matter, but i can not discuss with a dishonest man.
I learned from experience of Holy prophet Muhammad SAWS. An ignorant person about islam i.e. Hazrat Omar Farooq RA accepted the truth, but a dishonest man i.e. Abu Jahl never accepted Islam.
If anyone wants to ask questions regarding ahmadiyyat, they should consult the rah-e-huda programme on MTA. It comes live twice a week, i think. One on tuesdays and one on saturdays. It is a waste of time debating on here, because computer-communication is weak.
And people will spend hours just clearing a single sentence.
Let the people who believe in ‘HGMA’ represent their beliefs regarding ‘HGMA’.
Dear Straight Forward,
If you have found any single quote on the site ‘out of context’, then please let me know the correct translation. Rest assured I will correct whatever is out of context.
I find it exceedingly odd that anyone could remain with the Lahori sect. To be a Muslim is a huge blessing as it is. Then, if Ahmadism was true, one would have to believe in Mirza. But then according to the Lahoris, the vast majority of the professed followers of Mirza are not even following him correctly.
A sect within a sect within a religion. How obscure. Even if Mirza was some righteous person, his teachings are essentially gone except amongst an extreme minority.
StraightTalker, you said:
‘Hamza Yousaf [sic], does not have courage to say it in public. But in private he highly praised religion of Islam and Holy Quran translation by Maulana Muhammad Ali.”
Obviously Shaykh Hamza will praise Islam. But, you can’t say “in private, XYZ” as a proof of anything. Shaykh Hamza was asked in a talk on “Modernity” in the end what he believes about ‘Esa bin Maryam (AS) and he clearly and openly said he is alive and will return. He said this is the dominant opinion of Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’a, and what he is upon. This is contrary to the main message of Lahorism.
As for the other book by Shaykh Yasir Qadhi, he cares nothing about Ahmadism, either Lahori or Qadiani. Lahori Ahmadism is, for all intensive purposes, a non-issue.
@Farhan:
“I find it exceedingly odd that anyone could remain with the Lahori sect. To be a Muslim is a huge blessing as it is. Then, if Ahmadism was true, one would have to believe in Mirza.”
Draw a circle and call it islam and another circle within it and call it Ahle-sunna, and then one more circle within it and call it Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM)beliefs.
Yes, one can hold belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Hijra, and can still remain Sunni and of course a Muslim.
For a Muslim it is not must to believe in jesus death, or HMGA as Mujjaddid.
“But then according to the Lahoris, the vast majority of the professed followers of Mirza are not even following him correctly.”
Qadianis has made HMGA a prophet, but does it make HMGA wrong??
Christains have made Jesus their God, but does it make Jesus wrong??
According to Sunni, Shia are not following Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, and Shia are much more than Qadianis. Do you think a Christian is justified in saying since many Shia are not following HP according to Sunni, so HP Muhammad SAWS is wrong??
“A sect within a sect within a religion.How obscure.”
Sect does not mean to divide (Tafriq). Sect means difference of opinion (Farq). And difference of opinion was called blessing by HP Muhammad SAWS.
“Even if Mirza was some righteous person, his teachings are essentially gone except amongst an extreme minority.”
Values taught by HP are picked-up by non-Muslims and practiced by them. Does it make HP (nauzubilah) was some failure??
HMGA mission are picked up by general Muslims. E.g:
1-All reciters of Kalma-Shahada are Muslims.
2-There is no abrogation in Holy Quran.
3-Allah SWT is living God and He listens to prayers.
4-Islam needs to be spread by peaceful means.
5-Jihad does NOT mean war.
7-Isa AS is dead.
8-Dajjal is not some supernatural animal.
HMGA writings directly and through his students are picked-up by non-Ahmadi Muslim writers, scholars.
Even in pakistan, muslim scholars on TV say jesus is dead.
HQ translations by European Muslims say Jesus is dead. etc
@farhan:
“Obviously Shaykh Hamza will praise Islam. But, you can’t say “in private, XYZ” as a proof of anything. Shaykh Hamza was asked in a talk on “Modernity” in the end what he believes about ‘Esa bin Maryam (AS) and he clearly and openly said he is alive and will return. He said this is the dominant opinion of Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’a, and what he is upon. This is contrary to the main message of Lahorism.”
So, you agree Hamza Yousaf has appreciated and learned from islamic scholarly literature produced by LAM. That is my point.
To be a Muslim it is not necessary to believe that jesus is dead.
I would say, Hamza yousaf belief that Jesus is alive is not based on Holy Quran but on “dominant opinion” (as he himself said). Remember when HP came the dominant opinion was different but he changed it. BTW already this dominant opinion is changing even in Pakistan.
Many people are scared of “dominant opinion” and not bold enough to grab the truth. Not everyone is Hazrat Abu Bakr RA and Hazrat Umar Farooq RA. People take time.
It is not dominant opinion, but established fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a liar, a deceiver and a foul-mouthed mullah who indulged in frequent hate speech and death threats. What have you to say about that?
@farhan:
“As for the other book by Shaykh Yasir Qadhi, he cares nothing about Ahmadism, either Lahori or Qadiani. Lahori Ahmadism is, for all intensive purposes, a non-issue.”
I don’t know S Y Qadhi. But if you find some orginal point in his writing, then please let us know.
I’m sure he must have learned some thing form LAM literature.
BTW: Please remember, if Hamza Yusaf starts openly saying that Jesus is dead, he very well lose support of Muslims e.g. like you. His business plans of Zatunya institute etc go down the drain. his popularity goes down. And he invites opposition of people like Shahid Kamal.
It needs strength of Iman and trust in Allah SWT to say the truth, and care least about business and political popularity.
If you don’t know Shaykh Yasir Qadhi, you must be living in a Mirzai black hole.
We will not allow attacks on our scholars. You are accusing Shaykh Hamza Yusuf (you still can’t spell his name) of lying. This is a grave accusation. Provide your proof or go away.
You’re saying he’s a liar and a businessman. All these baseless accusations to support Mirza Ghulam? Again, you cannot just say things like “He supports our view, but just does not say it in public. I could say “Lahoris actually believe Mirza Ghulam was a prophet, but just do not say it in public.” Its a baseless claim, just as you make.
Perhaps you should listen to his lecture on Modernity, where someone explicitly asks him about ‘Esa bin Maryam (AS).
If anyone wants to ask questions regarding ahmadiyyat, they should consult the rah-e-huda programme on MTA. It comes live twice a week, i think. One on tuesdays and one on saturdays. It is a waste of time debating on here, because computer-communication is weak.
And people will spend hours just clearing a single sentence.
Let the people who believe in ‘HGMA’ represent their beliefs regarding ‘HGMA’.
Its disgusting yet amusuing to see all the loser fighting over something they don’t know even the basics of. Go and jerk off watch some porn, this not the right use of internet. Stop this shit, my idea! All of you are nothing but masterbater and tired of it so now you have this web site to kill your time. May God destroy people like you
Loser and masternbaters
@Shahid:
You wrote:
“You are accusing Shaykh Hamza Yusuf (you still can’t spell his name) of lying. This is a grave accusation. Provide your proof or go away.”
Farhan wrote:
“Shaykh Hamza was asked in a talk on “Modernity” in the end what he believes about ‘Esa bin Maryam (AS) and he clearly and openly said he is alive and will return. He said this is the dominant opinion of Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’a, and what he is upon. ”
Anyone can see, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, is basing his belief that Jesus is alive and will return on *dominant opinion* and not on Holy Quran. Proof of HY is in his own words.
As anyone can see, you couldn’t reason your way out of a paper bag.
Um…what? Lets suppose Imam al-Shafi’i, based on the Qur’an and Sunnah, said XYZ. Then, a person who gives respect and credibility to al-Shafi’i said “I follow the Shafi’i opinion on XYZ”.
That person is not following al-Shafi’i over the Qur’an. He’s following the Qur’an through the scholarly opinion of Imam al-Shafi’i.
Do you honestly expect Shaykh Hamza to be asked a simple question, and him to go into an elaborate set of proofs just because 10 years later, someone will be discussing this issue on a forum?
You don’t understand. The Lahori sect is a non-issue. Very few people know about it or even care about it.
Vincent appears to be very upset…
You should be more upset that Masroor cant give a speech properly, maybe masroor should repeat the 1st grade….
Agricultural ecomomics…what a farce!!!
Brother Shahid:
A friend of mine attended this talk and said you truely were ‘kamal ki baat’ lol. Brilliant work, inspirational as always and I have the greatest respect for you.
Thank You,
Sis Findings.
Jazakallah khayr. Feedback like this is encouraging and heartening. May Allah (SWT) accept my humble efforts and shower you with mercy insha’Allah.
Dear Mr Shahid,
Please send me your E-Mail address, I would like to send you some interesting and hitorical information. Thanks
Go to thecult.info – there is a contact link for email at the bottom of the page.