This is an interesting debate between the Lahore Mirzai wisdom guru Zahid Aziz and brother ahmadibeliefs. I guess ahmadibeliefs was a little harsh, however, his approach is very scientific and very logical. Zahid Aziz was clean bowled repeatedly and at the end he simply ran away. What I learned here is a different technique to tackle Mirzais which seems extremely effective. Do not put an objection on Mirza’s writing, just ask them about the authenticity and validity of his obscure beliefs?

We can see here that Zahid Aziz was compelled to confess that Mirza was a shame for humanity. He tried to avoid the second confession that as per Mirzai religion copulation and worship are inseparable and finally he was compelled to close the blog.

The discussion is little longer and needs your patience, but I found it to be very interesting as well as informative.

Interestingly the blog is still available at the Lahori site:
http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2009/11/10/discussion-between-ex-qadiani-akbar-ahmad-chaudhry-and-qadiani-anwar-mirza-on-iqra-tv/#comment-3294

________________________________________
• December 3rd, 2009 at 4:31 am
From ahmadibeliefs:

I wish this Iqra TV program invites Dr. Zahid Aziz to get Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement point of view.

Please visit the website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com to check out beliefs of both sects of ahmadiyya in the light of actual writings of Mirza Sb.
________________________________________
• December 3rd, 2009 at 10:57 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:

It is obvious some opponent of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib has created the website “ahmadibeliefs”. Although the quotes, (although I have not checked their wordings against HMGA books) are from HMGA books (BTW some of them may Not be from his books) but they are out of context. The author of “ahmadibeliefs” website is NOT different than Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders. Both have the similar approach i.e. to take quotes out of context and absolutely distort the message and create wrong impression, and still be able to claim this is what Holy Quran or HMGA books say.

On the other hand if you honestly seek to understand these quotes, then we can help you. But before we do that, you pick-up one quote at a time, and first tell us your understanding of that quote by reading few pages preceding and proceeding those quotes. This will save your and our time. This will also show readers your willingness and honesty in understanding the quotes and learning. Thanks.

________________________________________
• December 10th, 2009 at 8:35 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
Sure,
Let us start with the 3rd quote on http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/moralvalues.
My understanding is same as per the website translation:
I am neither an earth-worm nor a human being.
I am the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity.
(Braheen Ahmadiyya – Vol 5 127; Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 21, Page 127)

Please correct the translation in the light of context.
________________________________________
• December 10th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
Anyone who reads the other verses of this beautiful and touching poem on that same page of the original book, will easily understand the meaning of these verses. See image of page here.
In the translation of the first verse quoted here, two words have been omitted, namely: “my Beloved”. If you know who he is addressing, the meaning behind these words is obvious.
Of course, those people will not be able to appreciate these verses who feel no need to express any humility and self-effacement before God because they are ruled by their own arrogance.
________________________________________
• December 11th, 2009 at 2:39 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:

In every language of world, to produce quality literature writers and poets pen extreme forms of exaggeration. It could either be to show humility or grandiosity. Authors of Sufi (mysticism) literature, especially poets extensively use such figurative speeches. Bible tells us even Jesus (Hazrat Isa AS) also made use of such expressions. In the same poem a few verses after your quote, on the same page that Dr. Zahid Aziz has scanned, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib shows extreme grandiosity when he writes: You (Allah SWT) created Heaven, Moon and Sun for me (HMGA).

Brother/ Sister Ahmadibelief, this poem is basically addressed to Sufis (mystics). If you read and think with a mind of a Sufi, you will be able to appreciate and enjoy it. (BTW: Sufis were also one of the target audiences of HMGA).
________________________________________
• December 11th, 2009 at 6:24 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
So you mean to say the correct translation is:

My Beloved! I am neither an earth-worm nor a human being.
I am the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity.
Please confirm.
________________________________________
• December 11th, 2009 at 6:46 am
From Usman:
would “ahmadibeliefs” care to explain why the web site http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/moralvalues
leaves out the two words mentioned by Dr. ZA in the translation. And also as the addresee of the poem is quite obvious, why does the web site give the title “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility to humans”….when the humility being shown is to Allah. A mistake or a lie?
________________________________________
• December 11th, 2009 at 8:57 am
From Zahid Aziz:
I can confirm that this is the translation. This would mean that you or your sources from whom you copied it omitted the words “my Beloved”. Could you please let us know the reason for this omission?
Moreover, do you agree with the following statements of the Quran:
The statement of prophet Yusuf in 12:53 translated variously as “I am not free of sin, man’s soul is prone to evil” or “Nor do I absolve myself of blame: the human soul is certainly prone to evil”.
The statement of prophet Yunus in 21:87 translated by most translators as “I have been a wrong-doer”. The word for wrong-doer here is zalim.
________________________________________
• December 11th, 2009 at 10:05 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
What I understood from your answer is that the website made a mistake while translating. The website missed out the words “merey piyare”. This could be a valid issue and website should correct it. However, you said that quotes were out of context – so what was out of context here?
Moreover, the website made an error in the first line – but the second was accurate. Which I repeat:
ہوں بشر کی جاے نفرت اور انسانوں کی عار
I am the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity
So we can close this issue by agreeing to the fact that the website omitted the words, “my Beloved” and Mirza Sb was a shame for humanity.
________________________________________
• December 11th, 2009 at 10:13 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
As per your valuable suggestion the website has been corrected. The error is removed and the message that Mirza Sb was most hated organ of the human body and a shame for humanity has been more clear now.
For the 2nd quote, please comment, what did you find out of context at the only quote available on the link:
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya
________________________________________
• December 11th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
No, we certainly cannot close this issue by you just claiming to have corrected a “mistake”. You must make the whole page available on your website in order to show the context. You can upload the Urdu page immediately, and then you can gradually translate all the verses into English.
If you are right in your view of Hazrat Mirza sahib, then surely it is to your advantage to quote as much from him as possible! The more you quote, the more you will prove him to be wrong!
Also, you have not answered the points I raised from the Quran about what various prophets said. Is it perhaps because you are actually a Christian and not a Muslim? I can see that you have supported a certain Christian concept which is rejected by all Muslims. If you are a Christian, I cannot quote the Quran to you as an authority that you accept.
________________________________________
• December 12th, 2009 at 12:17 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:

On your corrected website page you wrote:
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/moralvalues
“Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility” [of course you did not make it clear that this maximum possible humility shown by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib is towards Allah SWT].

You have classified your misleading title as “Moral Values” of HMGA and his follower Ahmadis. I fail to understand how you classify statement of Maximum Possible Humility as “Moral Value”. Please explain?
Please remember Allah SWT knows what is inside your heart and what you write. Thanks.
________________________________________
• December 12th, 2009 at 6:10 am
From Usman:
@ahmadibeliefs
The context is (from reading the full poem)that HMGA is showing humility to Allah. Quite clearly before the website was making a “mistake” by mistranslating as well as giving it a misleading title. If the website is honest it should, as suggested by Dr. ZA, translate and upload the full poem to fully establish context and also make it clear in the title that “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility to Allah”.
________________________________________
• December 12th, 2009 at 6:46 am
From Zahid Aziz:
Those words can also be referring to the widespread hatred against Hazrat Mirza sahib by people, and people being ashamed to be associated with him.
Is he not the figure most hated by large sections of the Muslim community? Are not people so ashamed of being linked with him that many of them conceal any connection with him and many of them issue announcements saying that they and their fathers had no connection with him?
Since our opponent drew our attention to this poem, I have been reading through it and have found it so deeply inspiring and moving that I recommend everyone to read it. It should be translated into English as well.
________________________________________
• December 12th, 2009 at 7:27 am
From Usman:
@Rashid and ahmadibeliefs
Actually the the whole website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com seems to be an attempt (a rather poor one though) to mislead the casual reader into understanding that this is some sort of an Ahmadi site as opposed to an anti- Ahmadi site that is actually is. This is evident from the site address, its title (”Anjuman for Propagation of Ahmadiyya Beliefs – Germany”) as well the use of a motto on every page usually associated with the Rabwah Jammat. Is this all a “mistake” as well? I think we can discuss this later, first ahmadibelief needs to clarify and correct the “mistake” made in the quote regarding humility and answer Dr. ZA’s question that if ahmadibelief is a believer in Quran as the true word of God?
________________________________________
• December 12th, 2009 at 8:32 am
From Rashid:
In the poem HMGA is thanking Allah for his favor bestowed to him. Despite given all the odds, and lack of his worldly resources, every accusation and hurdle, including malicious court cases, created by his opponents turned out in his favor. Even a plague that was considered curse and killed many turned out as a proof of his truthfulness. Unlike first 4 volumes of Barahin-I-Ahmadiyya, which were his initial books, volume 5 was published many years later, and in his poem HMGA mentioned events that took place in intervening period.
________________________________________
• December 12th, 2009 at 10:03 am
From ahmadibeliefs:

You must make the whole page available on your website in order to show the context.

Dear Brother,
You are welcome to make a website and translate the whole poem made available on it. You put an allegation that the translation was out of context. It is clear it was not out of context rather there was a mistranslation which is corrected.

I fail to understand how you classify statement of Maximum Possible Humility as “Moral Value”

Dear Rashid,
Being humble is one of the noble moral values. If you fail to understand please ask someone to explain to you.

So please explain for the second quote now:
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya

________________________________________
• December 12th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
“Out of context” means that the context is not provided. The context is what comes before and after. When anti-Islamic propagandists quote from the Quran “kill them wherever you find them”, the translation is perfectly correct. So do you think they are right in quoting it and giving it their own meaning? Please do answer this.
Regarding your second quote, you have stated on your webpage that you accept the Christian concept that the act of sex between husband and wife is “filthy”. No Muslim accepts that concept. Therefore your “loveforall” page is an attack upon Islam and all Muslims. Please clarify that you are against Hazrat Mirza sahib because you are against Islam while he defended Islam.
________________________________________
• December 12th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:
Your quote:
“Dear Rashid,
Being humble is one of the noble moral values. If you fail to understand please ask someone to explain to you.”

Then please explain to me why you consider HMGA’s statement of extreme humbleness, proving his humility to Allah is a NEGATIVE character value?
Thanks.

@Dr. Zahid Aziz:
“When anti-Islamic propagandists quote from the Quran “kill them wherever you find them”, the translation is perfectly correct. So do you think they are right in quoting it and giving it their own meaning?”

The author of “ahmadibeliefs” website is NOT different than the Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders. Both have the similar approach i.e. to take quotes out of context and absolutely distort the message and create wrong impression, and still are able to claim this is what Holy Quran or HMGA books say.

I think, with his approach “ahmadibeliefs” is giving his/her SUPPORT to efforts of Geert Wilders.
Looking at point you brought up (“Therefore your “loveforall” page is an attack upon Islam and all Muslims. Please clarify that you are against Hazrat Mirza sahib because you are against Islam while he defended Islam”), I hope Muslim opponents of HMGA realize that “ahmadibeliefs” who pretends to be among their ranks has much higher sinister designs.
________________________________________
• December 13th, 2009 at 8:55 am
From Usman:
ahmadibelief: I don’t see how it is clear the quote was in context. I think quite clearly it was out of context with a distorted meaning. Please remember you put the allegation first that this quote has some thing do with moral values. To establish this allegation you must provide context (Dr. ZA has explained what providing context means). After you have provided context we can see if your allegation holds wieght or not. Until then, this issue is not closed.
________________________________________
• December 13th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
From ahmadibeliefs:
Dear Zahid,

“Out of context” means that the context is not provided.

This is one of the most illogical arguments one could expect from you. By this logic, you can quote any excerpt – if you want to quote something of Mirza Sb – publish the whole book and ask people to read the whole book. We both agree that Mirza Sb was most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity. We also agree this is a show of extreme humility. I am unsure, what is your objection.

Regarding your second quote, you have stated on your webpage that you accept the Christian concept that the act of sex between husband and wife is “filthy”.

I have never said that I accept the Christain concept, please don’t tell lies.

Now please advise what is out of context on the quote:

http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya

Dear Rashid,

Then please explain to me why you consider HMGA’s statement of extreme humbleness, proving his humility to Allah is a NEGATIVE character value?

Please refer from the website address under discussion where I said it is a negative character value. I say it one of the noble moral values that Mirza Sb claim he is not a human being not even an earth worm. Rather he is the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity. This is what you also agree is the translation. Where is the problem?
________________________________________
• December 13th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:

Homepage of your website “ahmadibeliefs” says: “Anjuman for Propagation of Ahmadiyya Beliefs – Germany”.

In reply to Dr. Zahid Aziz suggestion you wrote:
“You are welcome to make a website and translate the whole poem made available on it. You put an allegation that the translation was out of context.”
Doesn’t it behoove you to propagate the correct Ahmadi Beliefs, and not to mislead?
And if in opinion of real Ahmadis your website is creating misunderstanding by posting quotes out of context, then are you not required to rectify it?
________________________________________
• December 13th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
So your view is: (1) Hazrat Mirza sahib showed “extreme humility”, and (2) “Being humble is one of the noble moral values”.
Why don’t you place this conclusion in these words on your webpage? Presumably this is a noble quality you would be looking for in a truthful person.
I never stated that if you quote anything from Hazrat Mirza sahib you must publish the whole book. I said: the whole page, and I made it conveniently accessible to you. All you need to do is create a link to it (http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/barahin-v5-p127.pdf)
You never answered my point as to whether those anti-Islamic propagandists are right to quote the Quran as saying “kill them wherever you find them”. You seem highly reluctant to defend Islam.
You have replied: “I have never said that I accept the Christian concept, please don’t tell lies.”
On your “loveforall” page you have written:
“This is the status that Hazrat Sb has awarded to faith that an act of sex which is considered filthy by Christians has been upgraded to an extent that it becomes inseparable from love of God.”
That means you consider the Christian concept that sex is filthy even between husband and wife to be correct (that’s why they have celibacy). It is on the basis of that Christian belief that you are judging and criticising Hazrat Mirza sahib’s statement. Islamic teachings regard sex between husband and wife as an act of purity and require everyone to live in the state in which they can carry out this act. It is this act that Hazrat Mirza sahib clearly mentions.
________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 4:44 am
From ahmadibeliefs:

And if in opinion of real Ahmadis your website is creating misunderstanding by posting quotes out of context, then are you not required to rectify it?

Who is going to decide that you are true appreciator of Hazrat Sb or I am? How can you claim that you are a true Ahmadi so I should make my website according to your desires?

So your view is: (1) Hazrat Mirza sahib showed “extreme humility”, and (2) “Being humble is one of the noble moral values”.
Why don’t you place this conclusion in these words on your webpage?

This is exactly what is stated in the website. The title of the page says “MORAL VALUES” and the title of quotation says, “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility”. It clearly means that being humble is moral value and Hazrat Sb was so humble that he said I am not a human being and not even an earth worm, actually I am the most hated organ of the human body and a shame for humanity.

I never stated that if you quote anything from Hazrat Mirza sahib you must publish the whole book. I said: the whole page, and I made it conveniently accessible to you. All you need to do is create a link to it (http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/barahin-v5-p127.pdf)

It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context – the context can only be clarified if all the books are read in totality. As far as putting the link is concerned, if you had the eyes to read you would have read that I have clearly mentioned the page number and name of the book. Everyone knows these books are available on the official ahmadi website and can download and read. Why should I give reference to your one pager. It is better to give the reference of full book which I have given.

You never answered my point as to whether those anti-Islamic propagandists are right to quote the Quran as saying “kill them wherever you find them”.

My area of research is “True Ahmadi Beliefs based on writings of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani” and I was never posed a question by any non-Muslim about this ayah. However, just to make you happy, yes, I don’t think it is right to quote something from any place out of context and give your own meanings. In this case we both agree on the meaning that Mirza Sb was not even an earth worm and he was a shame for humanity.

That means you consider the Christian concept that sex is filthy even between husband and wife to be correct

I thought you are a PhD, but it nowhere looks like that. I would request you to open your eyes and then read. I have written: “This is the status that Hazrat Sb has awarded to faith that an act of sex which is considered filthy by Christians has been upgraded to an extent that it becomes inseparable from love of God.”
It simply means that Christians consider sex as a filthy act. Where did it says that I consider sex as a filthy act?
Now please stop these futile efforts to avoid the question and tell me what is wrong on the page,
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya

You guys said my website is wrong and out of context and you are there to help me to understand better. But instead of helping you are consistently beating about the bush.
________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 5:07 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:
Everyone can see through you that how eagerly you want to put on the side your first objection on HMGA based on quoting verse of his poem out of context. Now as your dishonesty is exposed you want to leave this objection, with out taking it to its logical conclusion i.e. by providing the complete page of poem; and your jumping to next objection. If we let you do this, you will repeat the same attitude. If you’re honest and have fear of Allah (provided you are a Muslim) then provide the complete page as demanded by Dr. ZA and then you can move to next objection. Remember, Allah knows everyone’s intentions (including yours) and you will be answerable to Him one day.
________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 5:44 am
From Usman:
@ahmadibelief you said “Please refer from the website address under discussion where I said it is a negative character value. I say it one of the noble moral values that Mirza Sb claim he is not a human being not even an earth worm. Rather he is the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity. This is what you also agree is the translation. Where is the problem?”
The translation is not the issue here any more. It is what the translation means and implies that is the issue. We feel the expression of humility shown by HMGA to Allah reflects positively on him. If you agree with this, then there is no problem. However if you have a problem with this particualr expression, then state it openly. Remember you put forward this quote to open the discussion, so obviously you have some problem with it; otherwise why bring it up. So instead of asking Rashid where the problem is; you should be stating the problem; failing which it will be logical to assume that you agree with us.
________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 7:14 am
From Zahid Aziz:
1. When we say that our religious leader possessed an excellent quality, it means that it becomes our goal to achieve the same quality as far as we can. Are you prepared to say that “the maximum possible humility” shown by Hazrat Mirza sahib is a goal you personally want to attain yourself and exhort others to attain it?
2. Since you are so keen to quote Hazrat Mirza sahib, what is hindering you from giving a link to the page that I mentioned, and telling your readers to read it for some further details.
3. So defending Islam against its critics, which Hazrat Mirza sahib did (including defending it against the “kill them wherever you find them” misrepresentation), is not a part of your research about his writings, while his writings are full of this defence! A critic of Islam will say the same as what you have said here: that “we both agree” that this command is in the Quran.
4. Why have you at all mentioned on your webpage the Christian doctrine about sex being filthy? It is not relevant to the quotation from Hazrat Mirza sahib that you are discussing. He is nowhere discussing Christianity in that section. You are clearly alleging that it is a filthy thing (sex between husband and wife) which Hazrat Mirza sahib has “elevated”. By using the word the “copulation” in your title, you indicate that sex between husband and wife is no better than any immoral act of copulation. Your belief is totally against what all Muslim believe.
________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 8:56 am
From Rashid:
@ahmadibeliefs:
Your: “Who is going to decide that you are true appreciator of Hazrat Sb or I am?”

Since you are posting on Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement website, and LAM members holds belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Century. So my question to you:
Are you willing to at least state that you hold belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Century?

Your: “How can you claim that you are a true Ahmadi so I should make my website according to your desires?”

What you will answer if Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders asks you: How can you claim that you are a true Muslim and follower of Holy Quran (assuming you a Muslim) so I should make my movie “Fitna” according to your desires?

Your: “It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context – the context can only be clarified if all the books are read in totality.”

What you will reply (assuming you are a Muslim who has utmost esteem for Holy Quran) if Geert Wilders says to you, “It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context (of verse: “kill them wherever you find them”) – the context can only be clarified if all of the Quran is read in totality”?

________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 9:21 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
Dear Usman,
I have collected the quotes of Mirza Sb to appreciate his true beliefs. I did not put this quote as an objection. If you may read up the post from Rashid; you will see that he put an objection on me:
“Although the quotes, (although I have not checked their wordings against HMGA books) are from HMGA books (BTW some of them may Not be from his books) but they are out of context.”
Further he offered me to select quotes and discuss:
“On the other hand if you honestly seek to understand these quotes, then we can help you. But before we do that, you pick-up one quote at a time, and first tell us your understanding of that quote by reading few pages preceding and proceeding those quotes.”
You guys offered to help and now you have all started to beat about the bush. Why should I put a reference to any link when I have given complete reference of book of Hazrat Sb.
It is just like I ask to you copy paste complete Quran on your website. You will ask anyone can check the Quran we have given a reference to the verse and sura. But I will say no, you seem to be dishonest so please copy paste whole of Quran on this website.
Then I will ask you copy paste 3 pages from Sahih Bukhari on your website and so on and on.
Please stop these stupid tactics and come to the point.
________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 9:29 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
Dear Zahid,
I would request you to be little logical. Every time you reply I am disappointed; I used to think that Lahoris are smarter than Qadianis.

1. When we say that our religious leader possessed an excellent quality, it means that it becomes our goal to achieve the same quality as far as we can. Are you prepared to say that “the maximum possible humility” shown by Hazrat Mirza sahib is a goal you personally want to attain yourself and exhort others to attain it?

I did not say Mirza Sb is my religious leader. I appreciate his work. He is your religious leader so you should repeat his wording that your are not even an earthworm and you are a shame for humanity.

2. Since you are so keen to quote Hazrat Mirza sahib, what is hindering you from giving a link to the page that I mentioned, and telling your readers to read it for some further details.

This is again a stupid request. I have given the reference already; anyone can go and read one page, two pages or whole book.

3. So defending Islam against its critics, which Hazrat Mirza sahib did (including defending it against the “kill them wherever you find them” misrepresentation), is not a part of your research about his writings, while his writings are full of this defence! A critic of Islam will say the same as what you have said here: that “we both agree” that this command is in the Quran.

If we get to a quote where there is defence of Islam, we will discuss it there. For the moment we are discussing copulation of Ahamdis.

4. Why have you at all mentioned on your webpage the Christian doctrine about sex being filthy? It is not relevant to the quotation from Hazrat Mirza sahib that you are discussing. He is nowhere discussing Christianity in that section. You are clearly alleging that it is a filthy thing (sex between husband and wife) which Hazrat Mirza sahib has “elevated”.

That was again pretty stupid. Here I am explaining to extremes; one Christians who consider a legitimate act of sex to be filthy and Hazrat Sb who gave this act of sex an exalted status. I cannot figure out where is the problem.

By using the word the “copulation” in your title, you indicate that sex between husband and wife is no better than any immoral act of copulation. Your belief is totally against what all Muslim believe.

How can the copulation between husband and wife be immoral. Maybe this is a Lahori concept I didn’t know. Please don’t put useless objections. My objection is why you used the word “belief” in this post. Why did not you use “faith”. Using the word “belief” means you are an enemy of Islam.
For God sake, use some sense.
________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
From ahmadibeliefs:

Are you willing to at least state that you hold belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Century?

That was a totally irrelevant question. If I am posting at LAM site why is it necessary that I am a Lahori.

What you will answer if Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders asks you: How can you claim that you are a true Muslim and follower of Holy Quran (assuming you a Muslim) so I should make my movie “Fitna” according to your desires?

I have not asked that Dutch to make a movie according to my desires. When I feel his movie has incorrect message – I will clarify him what I believe in and explain his error. You guys have not informed my error and want me to change me my website because you are the patron of writings of Hazrat Sb. Extremely stupid.

What you will reply (assuming you are a Muslim who has utmost esteem for Holy Quran) if Geert Wilders says to you, “It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context (of verse: “kill them wherever you find them”) – the context can only be clarified if all of the Quran is read in totality”?

That was the most stupid. Yes, I will tell him that is correct answer. We should read Quran in totality and then understand the meaning.
Why would Geert Wilders ask me or you anything.
For God sake, don’t waste time in these stupid questions. My question to you if Mirza Masroor asks you that he is in love with Muhammad Ali Lahore, what will be your answer.
My question to you if I tell you to change your name to Abdul Samad – what will be your answer.
My question to you if Dr Zahid Aziz says he is vetrenary doctor, what will be your answer….
________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
From usman:
Quote:
the context can only be clarified if all the books are read in totality
Unquote:
So you have then read all the books “in totality” of Hazrat sb. from which the website quotes? Because otherwise by your own admission all the quotes are out of context! Please clarify.
________________________________________
• December 14th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
From Zahid Aziz:
1. You praised humility in Hazrat Mirza sahib, and moreover you have created an impression that you are actually a follower of Hazrat Mirza sahib and a representative of Ahmadi beliefs. This is why I asked why you don’t make that quality of humility your goal.
Thanks for clarifying that he is not your religious leader. Please let us know which person of the past or present, if any, is your religious leader.
2. You say: “I have given the reference already; anyone can go and read one page, two pages or whole book.”
Would you then place the above statement on your website, saying that you encourage people to look up the reference, which may be found on such-and-such a website?
3. You don’t want to admit that the words “kill them wherever you find them” are being presented out of context by the opponents of Islam. This shows you are prepared to side with the opponents of Islam just out of spite for Hazrat Mirza sahib.
4. It is pointless to say that Hazrat Mirza sahib has gone to the opposite extreme to what Christianity teaches. Islam itself, on the topic of marriage and some other issues, teaches the opposite of Christianity. Assuming you are a Muslim, you should be concerned with whether he has gone to the opposite of Islam.
What do you think of the passages in the Quran and Bukhari which tell Muslims to remember God and to pray to him while they are (to use your term) “copulating”?
________________________________________
• December 15th, 2009 at 4:30 am
From ahmadibeliefs:
Dear Usman

So you have then read all the books “in totality” of Hazrat sb. from which the website quotes? Because otherwise by your own admission all the quotes are out of context! Please clarify.

I have read many books of Hazrat Sb but not all. Yes, it is possible my translation might be incorrect or out of context and that is why you guys offered to help me correct my errors. After correcting one error all of you have started futile and useless debate.
________________________________________
• December 15th, 2009 at 4:47 am
From ahmadibeliefs:

Thanks for clarifying that he is not your religious leader. Please let us know which person of the past or present, if any, is your religious leader.

This is another example of useless questions. My religious leader is not the topic of discussion. Topic of discussion is the errors and out of context translations on the website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com. For the moment we are trying to discussing the concept of worship being same copulation of Ahmadis as discussed on:
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya
If you think the message is clear please confirm so we move to the 3rd quote. If you think there is any mistranslation please let me know so that we can discuss. For God sake, stop these stupid questions. My question to you is, which Mujaddid is best of all? Who is your favorite politician – how did that politician effected your religious ideas? Who is your favorite singer, how does that singer helps you in copulation?

2. You say: “I have given the reference already; anyone can go and read one page, two pages or whole book.”
Would you then place the above statement on your website, saying that you encourage people to look up the reference, which may be found on such-and-such a website?

I have not made my website for dumb and stupid people. If someone does not know when page number and name of book is given it means in itself that you can check the reference for authenticity and full context. My demand to you is to put the basic concepts of English language 3 times on every page of your website so that people are clear how to read English.

3. You don’t want to admit that the words “kill them wherever you find them” are being presented out of context by the opponents of Islam. This shows you are prepared to side with the opponents of Islam just out of spite for Hazrat Mirza sahib.

I admit. Happy? Now please comment on copulation of Ahmadis.

4. It is pointless to say that Hazrat Mirza sahib has gone to the opposite extreme to what Christianity teaches. Islam itself, on the topic of marriage and some other issues, teaches the opposite of Christianity. Assuming you are a Muslim, you should be concerned with whether he has gone to the opposite of Islam.

I am not concerned that Mirza Sb has gone against opposite to Christianity. I am admiring a quality of Mirza Sb that look how a vast population of humanity considers copulation as filth. On the contrary Hazrat Sb has elevated this act of copulation to such a level that it has become equal to making love with God. Are you actually a doctor? Generally, the doctors are bit wiser.

What do you think of the passages in the Quran and Bukhari which tell Muslims to remember God and to pray to him while they are (to use your term) “copulating”?

Somehow, you look very confused. I have not put an objection on the fact that Hazrat Sb gave copulation such a high status that pious Ahmadis get confused if they had intercourse or offered prayers. It is you who is putting objection that I wrote something out of context. When I am not objecting on anything, why should I give clarification?
I am actually very fascinated by the idea that Ahmadi men go the mosque and experience orgasm. This could be one reason that may attract young people to appreciate the works of Hazrat Mirza Sb.
________________________________________
• December 15th, 2009 at 6:48 am
From Zahid Aziz:
I am sure every reader will now have fully seen the repeated avoidance and stone-walling of any of my questions by “Ahmadi Beliefs”. His tactics have been thoroughly exposed.
He has refused to let us know what his own beliefs are about the same topics that are under discussion. He hides his own religion since he knows that his objections and obscenities fall upon his own faith.
In the last paragraph above he has mocked and abused us, while avoiding my question. (He himself offers to Muslims the prospect of 72 virgins in heaven, apart from an unlimited number of concubines in this life.)
He is trying to have it both ways: both raise objections in an underhanded way and claim not to be raising objections, so that he can avoid discussion on the actual topics.
This art of “black propaganda” is not new, and is employed by purveyors of falsehood who have been completely routed in arguments.
As he is not letting the discussion proceed, I am not allowing any further posts by him. As a result, I also cannot publish any further comments by our esteemed contributors who have attempted to engage him, and I apologise to them with regret for not including some of their comments which are in the moderation queue.
________________________________________