بسم الله الحمد لله و صلاة و سلام على حبيب الله محمد و على اله
I once had a phone conversation with a doubting-Ahmadi. He was very polite and it was a pleasure speaking to him. In our conversation, he argued that Allah lifting up ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه اسلام towards the heavens would be unscientific. How could that happen! It would defy Newtonian physics! I replied by asking if he believed the Sea Split for Musa عليه السلام and he passed through it with all of Bani Isra’eel? Or that Maryam عليها اسلام conceived without touching a man? These miracles also seem to defy modern science. One by one, he gave me obscure rationalizations of the seemingly impossible. I was dumbfounded.
The Ahmadis officially canonized Imam al-Ghazali as the Mujaddid (reviver of the faith) of the 5th century. Lately, I’ve been influenced by the great works of al-Ghazali, in particular his quintessential masterpiece The Incoherence of Philosophy.
In Chapter XVII, titled Refutation of their Belief in the Impossibility of a Departure from the Natural Course of Events, al-Ghazali argues against the perceived relationship between Causes and Effects. He presents the example of fire and cotton. If you put fire next to cotton, the cotton burns. Al-Ghazali argues the most our observations can assert is that there is a correlation between the fire and the burning of cotton, but not a causal relationship. [If that's confusing, look up the Correlation does not imply Causality fallacy] Instead, Al-Ghazali argues, the cause of the cotton burning is Allah. He is the agent of burning and he chooses to burn when fire is present. It is not because of the fire that things burn, it is Allah choosing to burn when the fire is present.
This understanding makes the following three possibilities conceivable realities:
- Burning when fire is present (as expected)
- Not burning, despite fire’s presence (unexpected)
- Burning, despite fire’s absence (unexpected)
In other words, it is possible that what we deem as impossible can occur if and when Allah wills. Allah, who created our reality and is therefore not subject to its limitations, can cause reality to depart from the natural course of events. (When you truly understand this, literally everything becomes a proof of Allah.) With this framework, we wholeheartedly assert that Ibrahim عليه اسلام was thrown into the Fire but the fire was made cool for him, that Musa عليه السلام parted the sea and passed through it, that ‘Esa bin Maryam عليه السلام was ascended towards the heavens and will return, and that Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم fed hundreds of Sahaba from a single cup of milk.
Now lets compare what al-Ghazali wrote to what most Ahmadis believe. They do not envisage reality with this framework. They opine that the laws of physics are absolute and that Allah is bound to operate within them. Therefore, they argue, all of the miracles spoken of in the Qur’an have rational explanations that conform to the laws of modern science. Their explanations of miracles tend to be extremely improbable, far-fetched or outright absurd. And when they cannot find a natural explanation, they argue that the miracles were merely metaphors and should not be taken literally. After all, no rational, intellectual person would take them literally, right?
Here’s the kicker: Al-Ghazali continues to write that a previous group of the Muslims attempted to rationalize the miracle of Ibrahim عليه اسلام thrown into the fire, but when they were not able to do so, they denied its occurrence through metaphorical reinterpretation. As Ibn Taymiyya, whom the Ahmadis cannoned the Mujaddid of the 7th century, said, Tahreef (distortion) of the clear meanings of the Qur’an is a form of rejection. This is precisely what Ahmadi theology teaches. A distortion of the Qur’an and Sunnah through radical reinterpretations and a complete departurefrom the understanding of the Muslims since the time of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم.
We invite Ahmadis to return to the legacy of the very ones whom they officially consider to be the Revivers of the Faith and to testify that the miracles spoken of in the Qur’an were true. And Guidance is from Allah alone.
و صلي على رسول الله
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@ farhan. You used my name 4 times or so. I plagurize from you regularly…ha
Anyhow, great work my brother, it was your work that helped me leave the ahmadis. I now realize the true beauty of Islam. As an ahmadi i never realized just how beautiful Islam really was.
You really hit the nail directly on the head with this. It’s almost as if you know more about ahmadiyyat then the ahmadis themselves.
MGAQ also denies the miraj of our beloved HP (saw). I think he first denied it in Brahin Ahmadiyya Vol. 4 which was written in 1884. Maybe Akber can find this for us.
2:284
To Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth; and whether you disclose what is in your minds or keep it hidden, Allah will call you to account for it; then will He forgive whomsoever He pleases and punish whomsoever He pleases; and Allah has the power to do all that He wills.
Farhan, this is fbajwa. You remember me right?
I’ve given a reasonable refutation. If you reply, please make sure that you read the whole comment.
The work by Al-Ghazali is completely philosophical. Although it is very intelligible and are clearly the ideas of a great philosopher, they cannot be considered as valid according to today’s standards. Nobody was able to provide a scientific explanation, so the reasonable answer (at his time) was Allah is actually taking the cotton and burning it himself. Yes he is a reformer, but these ideas are valid according to the 5th century.
I’ll rationalize the story of Ibrahim AS right now. It started raining. Can it be explained, using science? Yes, I don’t need to explain how rain works. Far fetched? No, it could have been a cloudy day. And fire takes time to spread, even with accelerants such as wood. And btw, the Qur’an doesn’t say that the fire was actually cold and continued running. Not in our translation and neither in yours. When Allah said cool, he meant for the area surrounding the fire to become cold and as a result, extinguishing the fire. Now before you accuse me of metaphorically manipulating the Qur’an, answer this: Do you believe the “sun setting in a murky pool” to be interpreted factually or metaphorically? If you believe it was a metaphor, then you have no right to say that we interpret all miracles as metaphors. If you continue to accuse us of distortion, you are lying to us and to yourself and you are distorting the message Ahmadis wish to portray.
You said that we believe God is bound by science. This is a blatant lie. We believe that Allah has bounded US by science. If Allah did not want us to be bounded by science, he wouldn’t have made us out of clay. He would have made us in a spiritual form – like angels. The only actual miracle Allah has bestowed upon man is creation. He created the universe (through the big bang), intelligent life (through evolution) and the first Prophet for mankind, Adam AS (from dust).
Now it’s Hardhat Musa AS’s turn. Nowhere in the Qur’an, neither in your translation nor ours, does it say that the sea was split. Not in a metaphorical sense, nor in a factual sense. You may remember a while ago, you told me that Ahmadiyya is based on the Bible for whatever reason. Well, the sea being split is a Christian belief. So because of your interpretation of Musa AS, it can be concluded that your interpretation of Islam is based on the Bible. But you say Hardhat Muhammad SAW tells us not to accept the Bible but not to reject it either. Why the hypocrisy?
Hardhat Muhammad SAW did not perform any miracles. This is an example of Sunnis favouring a faulty hadith over the words of Allah.
Fareed,
Thanks for your enlightening exposition of your position. I appreciated it. But to be honest, what you said was precisely what I was referring to.
The main problem with your idea of God is that he is essentially a non-actor in the universe. If you believe that the universe is 100% bound by the correlations of science, then you have created the problem of How Allah acts in the universe. For example, lets suppose you pray for rain. What would be the use of Du’as? If you believe in a purely cause-effect universe, the only reason why it would rain or not rain is because of whether patterns, not because of the voice of your Du’as. Then according to that line of thought, it would have rained anyways. In other words, a purely cause-effect world with the presumption of God leads to infinite regression back to God, but shows that he is a non-actor in the universe. He only set the universe to go and left it running.
The second main argument was that the “we know better now” position. Quite honestly, this presumes that al-Ghazali and his people were ignorant. They knew about rain and fire. That is not a relationship people learned in the last 100 years. If you read what al-Ghazali wrote, he wrote about phenomena that they themselves could, and DID, deduce a causal relationship from. Point being, the accumulation of knowledge in no way invalidates his position.
Third and last you brought up speculations. If you insist upon rationalizing those miracles, I posit that they are not miraculous and therefore should not amaze the believers.
Brother, I would *highly* recommend you read what he wrote. It will change your perspectives. And Allah knows best.
(btw, you brought up several side-issues which I left aside for now. I want to focus on the main point.)
If we pray for rain, Allah will use weather patterns to produce rain. Allah controls the weather. He has the capability to use the weather system and do what he wills. That means he can cause a drought, flood, hurricane, etc.
“If you believe in a purely cause-effect universe, the only reason why it would rain or not rain is because of whether patterns, not because of the voice of your Du’as.”
Honestly, you’re trying to make us look like deists. Something we are absolutely not. This idea is not supported in any Ahmadiyya literature.
Humans are not capable of experiencing such miracles. We are physical bodies. If All
Farhan, the “we know better idea” does imply that they were ignorant. But there is nothing wrong with ignorance. Do you think Hadhrat Muhammad SAW knew about the Big Bang and other scientific ideas (which you and I both accept) which have been discovered recently? He may or may not have had a very vague idea because of the Qu’ranic miracles, but that’s a different story.
How do you think Al-Ghazali would react to the idea Khlifatul Masih IV brings up in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDAPfgwc6Ek
There is absolutely nothing wrong with ignorance.
So far, I have just skimmed through a few pages but I do intend on reading it. Thanks for uploading it by the way. Until now, all of my knowledge of Islamic polymaths came from Wikipedia.
Fareed, you said this:
“If we pray for rain, Allah will use weather patterns to produce rain. Allah controls the weather. He has the capability to use the weather system and do what he wills. That means he can cause a drought, flood, hurricane, etc.”
One could argue that those whether patterns would have been there because of previous whether patterns (ie, solar input, temperature, etc) and those previous because of even more previous patterns. So, where is Allah in the equation?
In other words:
A causes B causes C causes D causes E, etc
In a pure cause-effect world, where does Allah fit in the equation except at the very beginning of the universe? And if so, that means everything that will happen will happen anyways, Du’as don’t matter cuz its just cause effect. So, in a purely cause-effect world, God has no place except at the very beginning.
Al-Ghazali was arguing:
Allah causes A, then Allah causes B, then Allah causes C, etc. He is present at every step, and can change the natural course of events as he pleases.
Farhan, the Qu’ran is very vague when it comes to how Allah controls us. This cause and effect phenomenon is nowhere in Ahmadiyya literature. It says Allah spends as he wills. And that we have free will. The reason gravity can not be defied because Allah does not want this to happen. Humans are not capable of experiencing such miracles. We are physical bodies. Allah gave us physical bodies, which are bound by the laws of nature because this gives us freedom of choice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPeghu1KHlQ
For example, the story of Hardhat Muhammad SAW and the spider. Allah saved The Prophet through a phenomenon which does not contradict the laws of Allah.
And the story of Prophet Abraham AS. You said that I am speculating. I can just as easily respond by saying that you are jumping to a conclusion by immediately assuming a phenomenon which goes against the will of Allah.
We do believe in a certain type of miracle. And that miracle is creation. This is the only type of miracle the Qu’ran tells us Allah would do. In fact we believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmed AS experienced the miracle of the red drops. Although it is not scientifically explainable, it does not necessarily contradict the law of Allah.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Ahmad-20080411MN.pdf
Chapter 10 (139/919)
@fareed. You are totally missing the point.
The people that you consider as mujadids, they explained Islam based on inspiration from Allah. Even MGAQ was this type of mujadid (in your opinion, not mine). But, somehow you people find ways to discredit these mujadids.
Do you know that all of these mujadids believed in the theory of abrogation? They believed that the Koran was a contradictory book and they fixed this problem by endorsing a view that the later revelations of Muhammad superceded the previous ones.
But, again, ahmadis claim that the mujadids were in error. If allah didnt give these mujadids the basic concept of understanding the Quran, then what were they here to do?
The ahamdis should just come out and officially discredit every mujadid, then we have a foundation of belief. You people also discredit bukhari and sahih muslim.
lame..
We discredit certain ahadith from those to books. Not the whole books themselves.
Br. Fareed,
It saddens me that people feel the need to discredit Hadith in Bukhari and Muslim.
I had the honor of studying the the basics of Mustala al-Hadith (roughly translated as the methodology of Hadith). After just my review, it became quite clear that Hadith preservation is so strong that to reject is stems either from ignorance or from a pre-conceived notion.
Before every single narration, Imam Bukhari made Wudhu, prayed 2 raka’a, did the Du’a of Istikhara, did salawat (darood shareef) upon the prophet. He memorized over 1 million narrations, but only put a select number in his Sahih. And, the anecdotal stories about him are amazing.
But very few Ahmadis have this knowledge. Ahmadiyya *must* reject some hadith, because it conflicts with their religion.
If a narration is authentic, if you understand its complete context, it is inconceivable that it could conflict with the Qur’an or other established concepts. If you find this to be the case, the only solution is that your interpretation of the Qur’an is wrong and must be re-evaluated.
So do you beleive that the “There is no compulsion in religion” isverse irrelevant?
Sorry for going off topic but I must know this. Honestly, a week has not even passed since I this idea of abrogation has been brought to my intention. It’s something I found out about while watching a video by David Wood a few days ago.
@fareed. Allah does not communicate with me. I am not a mujadid. I rely on the father of tafsir(ibn abbas) and other mujadids for knowledge. I dont discredit them in any shape or form. Get it?
All the mujadids of the past, wrote that MANSUKH existed in one form or the other. MGAQ first and foremost disagreed with this idea. I think he did this in Brahin Ahmadiyya Vol. 4, I had asked Akber C to confirm this for me. This was how MGAQ argued that jihad was situational or remedial. MGAQ had to break the foundation of MANSUKH before he stopped jihad.
Get it?
Anyhow, from what I have read the mujadids believed that the passages in terms of war that exist in Chapter 9, they supercede all other passages in terms of war.
I am not sure,but I think that it is safe to assume that the mujadids believed that LA IKRA FI DEEN (no compulsion in religion) was superceded by the injunctions of Chapter 9.
Step your islamic knowledge game up, young boy…
Ahamdiyya literature does not discuss mansukh in much detail.
Fareed you said “Hardhat Muhammad SAW did not perform any miracles.” Not only am I shocked but are you aware that your so called Prophet MGA says the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) performed 3000 miracles?
…miracle of the Holy Prophet [peace and blessings of Allah be on him] which was the splitting of the moon, was displayed by Divine Power. It as not accompanied by any prayer as it happened merely by his pointing at the moon with his finger which was filled with Divine power. There are many other miracles which the Holy Prophet [peace and blessings of Allah be on him] worked purely with his power and which were not accompanied by any prayer. On many occasions, he multiplied water so much by dipping his fingers into a cup of water that the whole host and their camels and horses drank of it and yet the original quantity of the water was not diminished. On many occasions, by putting his hand upon three or four loaves of bread, he satisfied the hunger of thousands. On some occasions, he blessed a small quantity of milk with his lips and a company of people drank from it and were filled. On some occasions, by adding his saliva into a well of brackish water, he rendered it sweet. On some occasions, he healed severely wounded people of their injuries by placing his hands upon them. On some occasions, he replaced the eyeballs of people which had fallen out in consequence of some injury received in battle and healed them with the blessings of his hand. In this way, he did many other things by his personal power behind which worked Divine Power.
You seem to be unaware of the teachings of your own religion (Ahmadiyya). Then again, it does not surprise me as every other belief is contradicted by some statement of your Prophet. Please refrain from insulting the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by claiming he performed no miracles.
MGA AS said that? I had no idea. Can you give me the reference and tell me where Mirza Ghulam Ahmed said:
…miracle of the Holy Prophet [peace and blessings of Allah be on him] which was the splitting of the moon, was displayed by Divine Power. It as not accompanied by any prayer as it happened merely by his pointing at the moon with his finger which was filled with Divine power. There are many other miracles which the Holy Prophet [peace and blessings of Allah be on him] worked purely with his power and which were not accompanied by any prayer. On many occasions, he multiplied water so much by dipping his fingers into a cup of water that the whole host and their camels and horses drank of it and yet the original quantity of the water was not diminished. On many occasions, by putting his hand upon three or four loaves of bread, he satisfied the hunger of thousands. On some occasions, he blessed a small quantity of milk with his lips and a company of people drank from it and were filled. On some occasions, by adding his saliva into a well of brackish water, he rendered it sweet. On some occasions, he healed severely wounded people of their injuries by placing his hands upon them. On some occasions, he replaced the eyeballs of people which had fallen out in consequence of some injury received in battle and healed them with the blessings of his hand. In this way, he did many other things by his personal power behind which worked Divine Power.
Of course:
The Essence of Islam – Volume 1, Page 274/275 (PDF 308/309)
Download: http://www.alislam.org/books/essence1/Essence-1.pdf
Online: http://www.alislam.org/books/essence1/chap3c.htm
Of course:
The Essence of Islam – Volume 1, Page 274/275 (PDF 308/309)
The implications of what al-Ghazali wrote are great. The modern secularists look out at the world and see a purely Naturalist world (ie, complete cause-effect) and see no room for God. The Muslim sees every change that takes place as a direct result of the will of Allah. The Ahmadis are trying to assume the premises of the secularists, but synthesize it with their theology. While their intentions are noble, they simply will *not* come to any reasonable conclusion. As in the whether example, if someone says “Allah will change whether patterns to make it rain, so its a natural occurrence”, that begs the question “How will Allah naturally change THOSE whether patterns?” In other words, what is the naturalistic cause of THAT cause? It goes back until you realize that the whole world is nothing but cause-effect and there is no “need” for God. The most they could argue is that Allah is the “first cause” in the chain of events, but plays no role in it afterwards.
This is not how the Muslims see the world. Everything is a result of Allah’s will *at that moment*. As expressed above, this opens the possibility of things to, from our perspective, depart from the natural course of events. This is a miracle.
Well put brother Farhan.
What ever happens, i understand that nothing can contradict science. It is just rediculus to accept things that do not follow nature.
I think you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not saying that the norms of science are false. This is our observed reality. The position is that objects do not fall at 9.8ms/s because of a blind force. Its because Allah chooses to move objects at 9.8ms/s and we call this part of his will Gravity.
As stated above, the problem for Ahmadis (neo-Mu’tazilites) is that they cannot reconcile a purely cause-effect world with the idea of Allah changing reality because of the Du’as of a person. The most someone could assert is that the Cosmological Argument for God, but that would make him a non-actor in the universe.
Conclusion for Ahmadis? Du’as aren’t necessary because they would happen anyways and all miracles aren’t impressive.
conclusion 1)
Farhan, you may believe that Du’as are useless according to our beliefs but I don’t think this is true. I completely understand the point you’re trying to make and I just don’t agree with you there.
conclusion 2)
You may not believe that the miracles the Ahmadis bring forward are amazing but we do. And your belief in Allah should not be based on the supernatural. And the prophet hood of Muhammad SAW should not be based on moon-splitting, ascension or healing severely wounded people with his hand. If that’s what your belief in Hadhrat Muhammed SAW requires, then I must question your faith. They should be based on revelation, prophecy, rationality, and truthfulness.
Well put Farhan,
Actually science is just observed data fit into mathematical models.
The confusion of the modernists is based I think on the ayat of the Quran (i dont remember the exact place) about Allah following his sunnah.
The issue is that the modernists equate science with the sunnah of Allah which is incorrect.
If Allah said in the Quran, F=Gm1m2/r2, then you could be sure its absolute, ow you are speculating that your observations are complete and your analysis perfect (for all places, situations and times) in developing the theories.
Science continualy evolves as new observations are made which show that the old science were not exactly correct. As an example Newtons Universal graviations broke down when you look at mercuries orbital motion. Einstiens Gravitation is need to account for that.
Thats why falsification comes into play with modern science.
Even with gravition, with Pioneer 10 and 11 moving out of plotos orbit seem to be not as far away as they should have been by now, putting doubts about the theory of gravitation.
Again as you say for gravitation, scientists know the value of gravitation but dont have any realy idea how it really works.
In fact all physics/chemistry/biology is based finally on particles and how they attract or repulse each other. Here again people dont really have a clue how gravity works, they just know the amount.
Some of the ideas thrown up by modern quantum mechanics strongly point at reality being created instant by instant.
And Allah (SWT) confirmed this for us in His Final Revelation to mankind in 35:41
“Surely Allah upholds the heavens and the earth lest they come to naught; and if they should come to naught, there Is none who can uphold them after Him; surely He is the Forbearing, the Forgiving.”
Tahir, that’s the first part of what I requested. And here is my response.
These are the types of miracles Mirza Ghulam Ahmed AS believe Allah bestowed upon him:
-literacy after hugging an angel
-countless prophecies
-the way he was able to win the hearts of many people without the sword
-the thing about the spider
In fact Mirza Ghulam Ahmed also said that one of his grandest miracle was that his revelation has not been cut off, like those of other prophets. Keyword: grandest. Don’t you think if Mirza Ghulam Ahmed believed in the the splitting of the moon, he would have wrote about that?
Now, show me where it says in Ahmadiyya literature that, or anything like:
…miracle of the Holy Prophet [peace and blessings of Allah be on him] which was the splitting of the moon, was displayed by Divine Power. It as not accompanied by any prayer as it happened merely by his pointing at the moon with his finger which was filled with Divine power. There are many other miracles which the Holy Prophet [peace and blessings of Allah be on him] worked purely with his power and which were not accompanied by any prayer. On many occasions, he multiplied water so much by dipping his fingers into a cup of water that the whole host and their camels and horses drank of it and yet the original quantity of the water was not diminished. On many occasions, by putting his hand upon three or four loaves of bread, he satisfied the hunger of thousands. On some occasions, he blessed a small quantity of milk with his lips and a company of people drank from it and were filled. On some occasions, by adding his saliva into a well of brackish water, he rendered it sweet. On some occasions, he healed severely wounded people of their injuries by placing his hands upon them. On some occasions, he replaced the eyeballs of people which had fallen out in consequence of some injury received in battle and healed them with the blessings of his hand. In this way, he did many other things by his personal power behind which worked Divine Power.
You’re misunderstanding what my article was about. If I take object A, and push it into object B, I will agree with you that object B will move. Even if we test this a million times, I *expect* the same result ad nauseum. But, the question is:
Is object B moving because of a blind force called Cause-Effect
or
Because Allah wills Object B to move at the moment object A hits it?
Its not about “science vs non-science” its about an interpretation of reality. And, I outlined the problems with the Ahmadi interpretation above…
Don’t feel the need to disagree with me. Join me!
Dear Fareed,
Tahir has already informed:
Of course:
The Essence of Islam – Volume 1, Page 274/275 (PDF 308/309)
Download: http://www.alislam.org/books/essence1/Essence-1.pdf
Online: http://www.alislam.org/books/essence1/chap3c.htm
You referred me to page 308/309. That’s why I didn’t read the following pages (and that’s where the miracles are discussed).
I said that “Hardhat Muhammad SAW did not perform any miracles.” And for that, I apologize.
But apparently this isn’t the case. This is the first time I have heard about these things. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed AS however did say that all this happened with Divine Laws of Allah.
I don’t understand why Ahmadis believe that Isa AS’s ascension to heaven, the virgin birth, the sea splitting, fire cooling, the stick turning into a snake are ridiculous if we believe in miracles of Muhammad SAW.
It might be because Mirza Ghulam Ahmed AS contends that “The Holy Qur’an comprises in itself such perfect qualities that it is in no need of extraordinary miracles.” Page 313/543
This is something I will have to look into, and Insh’Allah, I will find an answer.
Fareed, another thing worth looking into is the reality of Muhammad (saw) observing Jibreel (as) on the horizon. This is clearly an abnormal, supernatural event, but it doesn’t tie in with the Ahmadiyya viewpoint on every miraculous event being bound by scientific rationale. (Wouldn’t be a mirace if it was, right?)
Further, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself related the “miracle” of the red ink drops apparently dropped from the “pen of God” while Mirza slept. Now that’s either a miracle, or it is not, it can’t be both.
I already gave you a reference for this, MGA says this in his book. So how can you says “you think if Mirza Ghulam Ahmed believed in the the splitting of the moon, he would have wrote about that? Now, show me where it says in Ahmadiyya literature that, or anything like…”
The Essence of Islam – Volume 1, Page 274/275 (PDF 308/309)
Why have you ignored it? Yes he says that the greatest miracle is revelation has not been cut off, but since when is that relevant to the actual theme of this topic? You do not believe in miracles in the literal sense yet your prophet does… He believes in the splitting of the moon and even argues that it was seen all over the world and is recorded in the books of Hindus. He believes the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) multiplied water so much by dipping his fingers into a cup of water and so on…. I even gave you direct links to these quotes so I don’t quite understand what more you need. Do you not believe as per the quote above in your post?
I was just now reading MuslimMatters.org ‘s article on evolution (http://muslimmatters.org/2009/12/16/evolution-prayer-mats-telescopes/) and I found that the author gives reference to this position. He writes:
“Secondly, that nothing can happen independently of God’s will. About this, the Tahawiyyah states: “Everything happens by His decree and will, and His will is accomplished. …What He wills for them happens and what He does not will, does not happen.”[16] Nothing is random or fortuitous. Nothing occurs by ‘chance’. Nor do causes or effects have an autonomous independence from the divine will. This is not to say that Islamic theology denies causes and effects as such, rather it denies that causes have effects in and of themselves; for God is the creator of all things.[17] For someone to literally believe that ‘random’ mutation or ‘natural’ selection have a causal independence from the will of God, as most evolutionists do, would be clear disbelief (kufr). The shari‘ah does, though, grant a dispensation to use certain phrases figuratively; like when someone says, ‘the food filled me up’ or ‘the fire burnt me’, providing one does not believe such things to have causal autonomy from God’s will.
30:25
It is Allah (SWT) who lends all that we see its apparent firmness, literally, His Will alone holds the illusion together, at every moment in our experienced time.
There is a hint of the illusion provided by the strong nuclear force in 27:88:
If there were no strong nuclear force, you would be able to move through a mountain as if it were a cloud.
This is entirely my own theory, but I think (and the more learned scholars amongst us can correct me if I’m wrong) that the idea that it is Allah (SWT) who maintains our reality from moment to moment is the orthodox Islamic position, and my theory is that science will establish this, if it hasn’t already done so. If true, this totally validates the idea that law, including and especially the laws of physics, work purely through Allah’s Will, moment by perceived moment.
Brother Fareed,
” I don’t understand why Ahmadis believe that Isa AS’s ascension to heaven, the virgin birth, the sea splitting, fire cooling, the stick turning into a snake are ridiculous if we believe in miracles of Muhammad SAW. ”
You can read Braheen Ahmadiyya – Vol. 5. It explains the position of Mirza Sahib about miracles very well. You can read through first 100 pages to get an idea. I am not sure, but I do not think Mirza Sahib has written something that investigates the relationship between science and religious miracles in detail. He has looked at the issue from a very different and unique angle. He investigates the issue that what role the miracles are supposed to play in bringing people closer to God and it is very very interesting read.
You can definitely spend your time in thinking that whether God can or can not create a scenario like this: ” I am sitting in my room. An egg drops from the ceiling. But there is no dent in the ceiling. A chicken comes out of the egg with a hand note in its mouth. The hand note says: Fareed, You should not doubt the lifting of Esa bin Maryam. Then the chicken turns into an eagle and flies away”. And people of all faiths have reported to experience many paranormal activities in their lives that can not be explained by science ( at least what we know so far). But I think when we talk about Quranic and other religious miracles, the position that Mirza Sahib has explained in Braheen Ahmadiyya ,Vol. 5 looks to me a very convincing argument.
Br. Asad,
I do have a vague understanding of Mirza Sahib AS’s position on miracles. And now that I think about it, it makes a little more sense to me.
My main point is that if we (Ahmadis) do in fact believe that The holy Prophet PBUH performed miracles like the ones brought forward by Br. Tahir, then we have absolutely no right to ridicule the mainstream Muslim beliefs of the sea-splitting, the fire becoming cold, the miraculous virgin birth, and even the ascension to heaven (of both Muhammed SAW Isa AS). And this is something Ahmadis do. We use the belief of the ascension of Isa AS to try to create doubt in the minds of non-Ahmadis. Now i am not saying that Ahmadis should adopt these beliefs as well. I am saying, that in my own personal opinion, we have no right to mock Muslims for their beliefs in the physical ascension and return of Isa AS. And if we want to use the ascension of Isa AS and Muhammad SAW in discussion, we should do things like make reference to the Qu’ran and hadith. Not tell them they are wrong because it is “unscientific.”
Br. Fareed, I think you more or less said what I was getting at. Thanks for your thoughtful comments (even if you disagree with us, they’re refreshing).
But, I don’t think that most Ahmadis (or even most people) have thought about the implications of a purely deterministic universe. When you said “God would change the weather patterns to make it rain”, the obvious question is what would be the cause of those weather patterns changing? What would be their physical cause?
Follow back the chain of causes and effects until you get to a first cause. If you believe its God, great, but then that God has no active hand in the universe.
My article was not about denying science. Its about your *interpretations* of science and how that affects what you believe is possible.
Indeed Brother Fareed. It is quite baffling that Ahmadi’s claim that Hazrat Isa (AS) did not cure the blind in the literal sense and argue that he cured the blind by simply showing them the right path yet this view with miracles is not endorsed in regards to the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
Brother, are you aware that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad too believed that Hazrat Isa (AS) ascended to heaven physically? Are you also aware that he later labeled this belief shirk? This was 56 years later and 15 years after he had allegedly been assigned as a Prophet. Are you aware of the implications of his u-turn? By his own admission, he was commiting shirk for 56 years of his life including 15 years of alleged prophethood. We can provide references if you require.
I have a question for qadianis.
If MGA believed that Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) healed the wounded with his hand, sweetened brackish water with his saliva, multiplied bread and water and split the moon, where did this “no supernatural miracle” policy come from?
Wouldn’t one think that splitting the moon is harder to explain than splitting a sea?
qadianis are famous for not answering questions. LUTF is an example of that. The family of MGAQ is famous for that.
In the 19564 munir court enquiry they asked Mahmud Ahmad if he had written such and such a thing and Mahmud responded that his diary writer was unexperienced at the time, the diary writer must have accidentally wrote something.
This was a total lie!
VEEEE CAN VWHAT VEE WILL DO–CIRCA 1885
Laws of Nature never change!
Scientifically speaking, this argument is deficient because we don’t know all the laws of nature, so when we don’t know for sure what is in accordance with laws of nature and what is against the laws of nature.
Theologically speaking, God made these laws and God can change these laws so this is No argument.
According to Ahmadism, it would have been more proper for you to say “Laws of Nature cannot exchange”, because Mirza said “Words of God cannot exchange”, and if that’s from God, and God’s speech is the best, then we should continue that structure.
Brother Farhan, though I agree with your comment, thought I’d just point out that brother Omer is not an Ahmadi.
Brother Fareed, if you are reading this, could you share your thoughts with us in light of the information provided?