Without further ado, here is the first programme of its kind on Western television, where a revert to Islam from the Ahmadiyya cult was able to speak freely about his experiences. If the Ahmadiyya wants “freedom of religion”, then in the first instance, they should stop stealing Islam for themselves whilst denying it to Muslims and almost as importantly, they shouldn’t use bullying and smear tactics to shut down free speech. This is a free country. It works both ways here.
Peace unto those who follow the guidance.
Funny how Rashid doesn’t want to talk about the birth of Eesa (AS).
Thanks for your reply Peace, concise and to the point.
“And because of their (the Jews) saying (in boast), ‘We killed the Messiah Jesus, so of Mary, the Messenger of God,’ – but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man instead), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not. But Allaah raised him up unto Himself (into the heavens). And God (Allaah) is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.”
[Soorah an-Nisaa’ (4):157-158]
So Muslims do not believe that Jesus has died. Rather, Allaah took him up to Himself and He will send him back down before the Last Day to break the crosses and make clear the message that he was sent with. Jesus will fight the Antichrist (Maseeh ad-Dajjaal) and slay him, then the time that God has appointed for Jesus to die will come.
There are no less than seventy Ahadith that speak of the second coming of Jesus Christ (pbuh). In one of the Ahadith, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is reported to have said:
“By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims who are in the protection of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and nobody will accept charitable gifts.” (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3. Hadith no. 425)
It should also be borne in mind that Jesus Christ (pbuh), in his second coming will not be coming with any new message or revelation. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is reported to have said:
“How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people (by the Law of the Qur’an and not by the law of the Gospel)”. (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4. Hadith No. 658)
The evidences you have provided dear Peace are generally from erroneous and weak hadith sources.
And the evidences from the sound books of hadith you have provided have typically been misinterpreted by that alleged Prophet of yours who had some understanding of the Quran but not as good as the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, according to you.
So as a rule my advise to everybody is when looking at a translation or interpretation, it’s not just enough that you read it and believe it.
You must read it and ONLY believe it if it conforms to the way that the Prophet PBUH believed in it and understood it. Or how those who came after the Prophet believed it and understood it.
The reason for this is the Prophet PBUH saying
‘The best of mankind is my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them. Then there will come a people who will bear witness before taking an oath, and take an oath before bearing witness.’ [Reported by Imaam Ahmad in his Musnad, Al-Bukharee and Muslim]
Therefore if we stick to the understanding on all issues of religion to the understanding of the the first three generations in Islam then we are safe InshAllah.
However if we are going to understand and accept and base our beliefs upon the interpretations of charlatans who came many centuries later and didn’t even fully understand the language of the revelation of Allah then we have nobody but ourselves to blame when we are held accountable by Allah.
May Allah guide us all to the truth and the way of the Prophet PBUH and his companions.
Dear Rashid:
QUOTE-The link you provided is NOT by Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement. And i do NOT think it is either by Qadiani Jamaat.-UNQUOTE
Please read the link – it gives writings of Mirza Ghulam from his books. If you think any of the reference is fake please let us know. Otherwise, please give an answer for such blasphemous statements.
Dear Peace:
“I have already prooved to you that isa(as) was not at all insulted by promised messiah(as). ”
Where did you prove it? The point is you are asking how to feel when someone attacks a prophet in this thread. And the fact is that Mirza used very filthy language about a prophet of God.
people are told about the 1000 curses in promised messiah’s(as) book, but are not told the background, for a reason. There is a very logical background for it. here it is from http://www.alislam.org:
“When the Christians felt that their defeat in the debate that Abdulla Atham had with Hadhrat Ahmad (as) was crushing and it was as if their back was broken one of their so-called missionaries who had left Islam and joined them – Imadud Din – published a book entitled Tauzinul Aqwal. It was most abusive and inflammatory of the highest degree. So much so that the Hindu newspapers – and even a Christian publication – came out openly to say that it was most inflammatory. They went to the extent of saying that if there was an uprising again like that of 1857, it will be caused by the writings of this person.”
“The book Nuqul Haq is a reply to this book of Imadud Din. Hadhrat Ahmad (as) explains his own belief in Islam and also exposes those who had called him kafir.”
more…
“In this book Imadud Din criticised the style of the Holy Qur’an and hurled abuses on the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. It was full of mean allegations against the Holy person of the Founder of Islam”
RASHID,
Please don’t evade the issue, I asked a simple question and need an honest answer. Death of Issa a.s. was not asked by me.
Please be brave and try to be honest and answer.
Thanks
@Pleezing One
There is no particular official stance of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement regarding the birth of Jesus as this matter is not considered a central tenet of the Islamic faith and is a matter of personal conviction of each individual based on his/her understanding of the Quran.
http://aaiil.info/misconceptions/jesus/birth.htm
The founder HMGA believed in Immaculate Conception, while the first emir, Maulana Muhammad Ali, had a different interpretation of the Quran and thought otherwise. It is up to each member of the movement to read and honestly try to understand the Quran and have faith in what appeals to his/her intellect. It is also important to approach the Quran with an open heart and without pre-conceived notions that having a certain interpretation is “taking a position against the Quran”, without even bothering to reading and understanding the Quran first.
http://aaiil.info/misconceptions/jesus/muslimv.htm
OsmanI have never read so much rubbish in my life.
QUOTE
‘as this matter is not considered a central tenet of the Islamic faith and is a matter of personal conviction of each individual based on his/her understanding of the Quran.’
What your basically saying is it’s up to each individual to make up his own interpretation of the Quran.
Please tell me where the Prophet said we should adopt this methodology.
Subhanallah the ignorance of Qadianis is becoming clearer and clearer with every comment they post.
QUOTE
‘The founder HMGA believed in Immaculate Conception, while the first emir, Maulana Muhammad Ali, had a different interpretation of the Quran and thought otherwise. It is up to each member of the movement to read and honestly try to understand the Quran and have faith in what appeals to his/her intellect.’
What absolute and complete confusion even amongst themselves.
I’ll tell you what appeals to me Osman, what appeals to me is that I share with you a telling hadith for those of understanding.
Among the signs of the greatness of the blessed Islamic sharee’ah is the fact that there is no good thing, major or minor, that it has not commanded us to do or pointed the way to it, and there is no bad thing, major or minor, that it has not warned us against or forbidden.
It is perfect and complete in all aspects, a fact which has often greatly astonished non-Muslims and earned their admiration.
At the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)), one of the mushrikeen (polytheists) said to (the Prophet’s Companion) Salmaan al-Farsi (may Allaah be pleased with him):
“Your Prophet has taught you everything, even how to defecate!” Salmaan said: “Yes, he forbade us to face the qiblah when urinating or defecating…” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, no. 16; he said it is a saheeh hasan hadeeth; also reported in Saheeh Muslim and elsewhere).
If we have been told even how to use the toilet it is hard to see how you can so confidently state that we should believe in whatever pleases our intellects.
When we decide to use our intellects we come out with statements of ignorance and kufr that can be seen by all on this blog made by ardent Qadiani’s.
I will ignore the inflammatory language as it is contrary to the Quranic guidnce on having a discussion.
Quote
“What your basically saying is it’s up to each individual to make up his own interpretation of the Quran.”
“how you can so confidently state that we should believe in whatever pleases our intellects.”
What I am saying is where there is a differance of opinion in the interpretation of Quran (and there are many among Muslims), each individual should use his/her own intellect to decide which interpretation to believe; which is the case in particular with the matter of the birth of Jesus in regards to the Lahore Ahmadiyya movement (in response to the question asked).
QUOTE “What absolute and complete confusion even amongst themselves.”
A differance in opinion is not equal to confusion. If it is then the whole Muslim Ummah is confused, in which case you can hardly point a finger at the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement.
I wish all the Muslims agreed on a single interpretation of the Quran, or a single Shariah. Unfortunately that is not the case. The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement emphatically believes in using intellect and reasoning to chart out a course that is truest to the teachings of Islam as revealed to the final and last Prophet of Allah Hazrat Muhammad (may the the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him).
What can be more inflammatory than stating that the word of Allah can be interpreted any which way we feel like and not the way it was interpreted by the best person ever to have graced this earth PBUH.
Also I would be interested to know which Quranic guidance on having a discussion you are referring to.
Please provide references so that I may see what interpretation you have applied to any verse you quote.
Qadiani’s seem to think that the lets make it up as we go along approach is fine.
I sincerely post for you below a list which I urge all brothers and sisters to read, digest and ponder on.
Osman please tell me where this leaves room for lets make it up however our intellects feel like they should make it up.
Fear Allah. Fear Allah and stop belittling the final Prophet PBUH and his message.
If any of what you say is agreement with the Prophet’s PBUH understanding or the earlier generations then I will be the first to stand shoulder to shoulder with you on that matter.
Until then I guess you will just have to continue upon your folly of making it up as you go along.
A Summary of Matters That Oppose the Path of As-Salaf As-Saalih
By
Imam Ibn ul Qayyim al Jawziyyah
The following characteristics are in opposition to the path of As-Salaf As-Saalih:
1. Denying that Allaah ascended His ‘Arsh (Throne) above the seven heavens in the Most Majestic manner that suits Him, and that He is distinct and separate from His Creation.
2. Denying, altering, or insisting o*!n figuratively interpreting the Names, Attributes and Actions of Allaah[1]
3. Denying, or altering the actual meaning of Ru’yah: The Seeing of Allaah by the believers o*!n the Day of Resurrection.
4. Making analogous comparisons between Allaah and His Creation, leading to Tashbeeh (making parables) or Ta’teel (denying or
suspending the obvious meanings) of the Names, Attributes, or Actions of Allaah.
5. Complete or partial denial of the intercessions approved by Allaah, or confirming intercessions not approved by the Sharee ‘ah.
6. Complete, partial denial, or figurative interpretations of revealed information o*!n matters of Al-Ghayb like As-Siraat,[2] Al-Meezan,[3] the Prophet’s Hawd,[4] the Torture or Bliss in the grave, the Angels, the Signs of the Hour, etc.
7. Denying the Kalaam (Speech) of Allaah.
8. Saying that the Qur’aan is not the Word of Allaah, but a creation of His!
9. Insisting that Eemaan is an uttering o*!n the tongue o*!nly!
10. Denying that deeds fall under the meaning of Belief.
11. Denying that Eemaan increases with obedience, and decreases with disobedience.
12. Denying that Allaah’s Actions are linked to His Wisdom.
13. Denying the Fore knowledge and the Writing of all measures and preordainment in the Allawh Al-Mahfooth (The Preserved Tablet).
14. Saying that man creates all or some of his own deeds.
15. Saying that man has no choice.
16. Contradicting the principles of Tawheed by offering any form of worship to other than Allaah.
17. Saying anything about Allaah or about His Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) without knowledge.
18. Arguing about the Qur’aan and Hadeeth, following what is not entirely clear to some, instead of referring it to the clear texts and (or) those learned scholars who follow the Salaf’s Path thus eliminating any misunderstanding.
19. Complete or partial denial of the validity of the authentic Sunnah.
20. Resorting to Baatini interpretations of texts saying that the texts have an outer aspect and an inner (Baatini] aspect!
21. Exaggerating in matters of Deen, e.g. easily declaring that such and such is a Kaafir.
22. Exaggerating about the status of certain men, making of them holly, infallible, etc.
23. To hold sacred certain places like tombs, clothes, etc.
24. Innovation in Deen: Adding to, or deducting from the prescribed matters of Islaam. Introducing innovated celebrations and declaring them holly.
25. Laying basics and rules related to the understanding of Islaam without resorting to the Qur’aan, authentic Sunnah, & the Salaf’s path.
26. Insulting the Sahaabah (The Prophet’s companions) or declaring that most of them as Kuffaar as the Raqfidah (Receptionists) of the Shee’ah sect do.
27. Insulting The Salaf from Ahlul Hadeeth and their followers.
28. Making mockery of the Muslims who adhere to the authentic Sunnah.
29. Giving allegiance to groups and (or) parties irrespective of their creeds and (or) methodologies in the name of “uniting the Ummaah”. This kind of “unity” which is not based o*!n the true belief in Tawheed and o*!n the way of the Salaf exemplified by the saying of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم): “My way and the way of my companions”
30. Magnifying the civilization of the Kuffaar under the pretext of modernization and development! The injustice inflicted o*!n some Muslims in their countries should not be the driving force for judging other societies. This may overshadow the Islaamic stand towards the Kuffaar.
31. Dissent against the Muslim rulers, even if they are ruthless, or oppressors. Islaam calls for patience under such conditions. The believer may give advice to the best of his ability, and deny the wrong in ways that may not lead to more evil. The confrontations with such rulers led and continues to lead to bloodshed, divisions, and a bad reputation that hinders the Da ‘wah for Allaah. This does not mean the acceptance of wrong, neither it is a baseless excuse for advocating the munkar.
32. Following scholastic and philosophical ways, making them the reference for understanding the revealed texts.
33. Taking a strange stand towards the Bid’ah and the Mubtadi ‘ah (innovators), by ignoring their Bida’ for worldly or political gains!
The above positions may exist with varied degrees amongst those who follow any of them. And Allaah Knows best!
The deviation from the Minhaaj of As-Salaf is a very serious matter. Muslims know well that the split of this Ummah into many sects is real and that the protection from this is possible-by Allaah’s will- o*!nce we take by the command of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم): “My way and the way of my Sahaabah.” It is Sabeel Al-Mu’mineen (The Way of the Believers) whom Allaah was pleased with and they were pleased with Him.
All Praise is due to Allaah, the Exalted. Any success in this work is from Allaahand any mistake is from me and shaytaan, and I ask Allaah to forgive me and to guide me and the reader to the path of As-Salaf As-Saalih and make us die o*!n it. I thank Him for enabling me to finish this work and I ask Him to accept it from me.
May Allaah, the Most Merciful, forgive me and my parents, my entire family, and the rest of the Muslim Ummah.
A REMINDER [5]
• Allaah said:
وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ
وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِ
It is not for a believer, a man or woman, when Allaah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have an option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allaah and His Messenger he has indeed strayed in a plain error. [Qur’aan, Al-Ahzaab, 33:36].
• The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: “It was the duty of every Prophet Allaah sent to guide his nation to the best of what he knew and to warn them of the evils of what he knew.” [Reported by Muslim].
• He (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: “The best speech is the Book of Allaah and the best guidance and example is that of Muhammad. And the worst of all things are the newly invented things (in religion), for every innovation is error and misguidance” [Reported by Muslim] and in another narration, “every newly invented matter (in religion) is bid’ah and every bid’ah is dalaalah (going astray) and every dalaalah is in the Fire.” [Reported by At-Tirmithee and it is saheeh}.
• In another warning, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: “Whoever introduces into this affair of ours something that we have not commanded it is to be rejected.”
[Reported by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).
• The Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: “Allaah will o*!nly unite my Ummah o*!n guidance.” [Reported by At-Timithee and it is saheeh]. And He also said: “ My Ummah -will never agree upon dalaalah” [Reported by At-Tirmithee and Al- Haakim and it is saheeh].
• ‘Abdullaah bin Mas’oudsaid: “Follow and do not innovate, for you have been given that which is sufficient and every innovation is misguidance.”
[Reported by Abu Khaithamah in Kitabul- ‘llm and it is saheeh].
• ‘Abdullaah bin ‘Umar said: “Every innovation is misguidance even if people regard it to be something good “ [Reported by Ad-Daarimee with an authentic transmission].
• Imaam Al-Awzaa’ee said: “Patiently restrict yourself to the Sunnah and do not go beyond the limits held by the decisions of the Sahaabah; hold their positions and avoid what they avoided. Hold to the path of the pious predecessors (As-Salaf As-Saalih), for verily what was sufficient for them is sufficient for you.”
[Reported by ibn Al Jawzee in Tablees Iblees and Al-Laalikaa’ee in .Sharoo Usooli ‘Itiqoadi Ahl us-Sunnah]
• The innovators are friends of Shaytaan because, as Imaam Sufyaan Ath-Thawree explained, “Innovation is more beloved to Iblees than sin, since a person makes repentance from sin but does not repent from innovations (because he thinks bid’ah is from the religion).” [Al-Laalikaa’ee in As-Sunnah (no.238)].
• Hassaan Ibn ‘Atiyyah said: “No people introduced an innovation into their religion except that an equivalent Sunnah is taken away from them.”
[Repotted by Ad-Daarimee with saheeh transmission].
• Ayyoob As-Sakhtiyaanee used to say: “No innovator works harder (according to his bid ‘ah) except that he increases in distance away from Allaah.”
[Reported in al-Bid’a wan-Nahyi ‘Anha by Ibn Waddaah].
Imaam Maalik said: “The Sunnah is like the Ark of Nooh (Noah), whoever embarks upon it reaches salvation and whoever refuses is drowned.”
[Reported by As-Syouti in Miftaahu Jannah].
‘ Imaam Maalik said: “He who innovates something in Islaam regarding it as something good has claimed that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) has betrayed the Message which he was entrusted to deliver” as Allaah says:
الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ
Today I have Perfected your Deen for you.
[Qur’aan, Soorat Al-Maa ‘idah, 5:3]
“Whatever was not Deen at the time of the Prophet cannot be considered to be a part of the Deen today” [Reported by Ash-Shaatibee in AI-l’tisaam].
• Imaam Maalik also said: “Nothing will benefit the Ummah to come except that which benefited its early generations.’” [Related by Imaam Ibn ‘Abdil Barr in At-Tamheed].
• ‘Abdullaah Ibn Mas’oudsaid: “ The Jamaa’ah is what conforms to the Truth, even if you are alone.” [Reported by Ibn ‘Asaakir in Taareekh Dimashq with a saheeh isnaad]
• Imaam Muhammad Al-Barbahaaree said: “Know that Islaam is the Sunnah and the Sunnah is Islaam and o*!ne of them cannot be established Without the Other.”
[Quoted from his book Sharhus-Sunnah. English Translation].
• He also said: “Everything (some) worshippers claim as hidden knowledge (’Ilmul Baatin), which is not found in the Qur ‘aan and the Sunnah, is innovation and misguidance. It is not to be acted upon nor called to.” [Ibid]
• Imaam Ash-Shaafi’ee said: “That a servant meets Allaah ith every sin except Shirk is better than meeting Him upon any of he innovated beliefs.”
[Reported by AI-Baihaqee in Al-I’tiqaad].
• Abu Qilaabah said: “A people never introduces an innovation, except that they make use of the sword lawful.” [Ad- daarimee with a saheeh isnaad].
• Al-Fudayl Ibn ‘lyaad said: “Indeed, I love those whom Allaah loves. They are those whom the Companions of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) are safe. I hate those whom Allaah hates. They are the people of the deviant sects and innovations.”
[Reported by Abu Nu’aym in Al-Hilyah with a saheeh isnaad. See Sharh us Sunnah by AI-Barbahaaree, English Translation, p. 94].
• Al-Barbahaaree said: “The innovators are like scorpions. hey bury their heads and bodies in the sand and leave their tails out. When they get the chance they sting: the same with the innovators who conceal themselves amongst the people, when they are able, they do what they desire.” [See Sharh us Sunnah, p.94).
FOOTNOTES:
[1] We ask Allaah’s Forgiveness for some of the great scholars of Ahlu Sunnah (e.g.Al-Haafith Ibn Hajar, Imaam An-Nawawee, and others) who may have indulged in figurative interpretation of some of Allaah’s Sifaat (Attributes). o*!n the other hand it is not right to exaggerate in rejecting all of their works. They have great contributions which enriched the understanding of the Sciences of Hadeeth, Fiqh, Usool, Tafseer, etc. While they may have been influenced by some aspects of the late Asha’rite school, they are not considered to be followers of the systematic methodology of this school. And Allaah knows best. See the Introduction in Ar-Rudud Wat-Ta’qeebaal ‘ala ma Waqa’ah HI Imaam An-Nawawee Fee Shark Saheeh Muslim Min At-Ta ‘weel Fee As-Sifaat…’by Shaykh Mashoor Bin Hasan Aal Salmaan. Daar Al-Hijrah, Riyaadh, 1413/1993.
[2] As-Siraat: The Bridge over the midst of Hell; It is extremely slippery. o*!n it there are hooks, claws, and barbs. Over it mankind will pass. The believers, as Prophet Muhammad explained, “Will pass like the blink of an eye, like the
lightning, like the wind, like the birds, and like the fast horses and camels. Some will be saved, some will be lacerated then set free, and some will be thrown into the Fire…” [See Saheeh Muslim, V. Hadeelh #352.]
[3] Al-Meezaan: The Scale set up o*!n the Day of Resurrection for weighing the deeds of men.
[4] Hawd: The Pool of Allaah’s Messenger He said: “The size of my Pool is like what is between Jerusalem and San’aa in Yemen and it has drinking cups like the number of stars in the sky.” [See Saheeh Al-Bukhaaree, V.8, Hadeeth #582.] It is referred to in the Qur’aan (Soorah 108) as Al-Khawther in At-Jannah.
[5] This section is intended to be a special reminder to the Muslims regarding the
Bid’ah. Inshaa’Allaah-they will make good use of its contents and make it available to their communities. I ask Allaah, the Most High, to render it beneficial for me and for all Muslims.
__________________
FOR SHAHID KAMAL AHMAD:
PLEASE ANSWER THE CHALLENGE IN THIS POST. Thanks.
COPIED FROM LAHORE AHMADIYYA BLOG
Accusations made by Shahid Kamal Ahmad in Iqra TV program
Rashid Jahangiri has informed us in a comment elsewhere on this blog that Shahid Kamal Ahmad in his appearance on Iqra TV accused Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib of “cursing” 1000 times in a book in Arabic, and Rashid asked: I will be thankful if Dr. Zahid Aziz or someone else can tell us context of these “1000 curses”.
It is the accuser who should provide details of his accusation. For example, the prosecution in a murder case cannot present the case by saying: “The accused has committed murder, but we don’t know who he murdered, when he committed the murder, where he did it and why he did it”!
Shahid Kamal Ahmad should show us the place where Hazrat Mirza sahib wrote “curse” a thousand times. We will then demand that he present just twenty lines of the preceding Urdu text and twelve lines of following Urdu text, and declare that according to his present beliefs as a Muslim the persons mentioned in that text are innocent and do not deserve curse.
@PO:
More than 30 hours ago i gave detail answer, in which i explained what Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib believed about Isaa AS birth, and what was Maulana Noor Ud Din and what Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement translators of Holy Quran have written and what is general belief on this issue.
My post got deleted from moderation.
Briefly: Hazrat Isaa AS was FATHERED BY A MAN.
Isaa AS was conceived JUST THE WAY YOU AND EVER HUMAN BEING INCLUDING RASUL ALLAH SAWS WERE CONCEIVED.
NOW don’t bring Hazrat Adam birth issue, here.
FYI: The Prophet Adam was also conceived they way you were conceived.
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT LIES OF SHAHID KAMAL AHMAD. AND I AM HERE TO EXPOSE HIS LIES AND IGNORANCE WITH HAZRAT MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD (HMGA) WRITINGS. HE CAN NOT READ URDU AND THEN HAS COURAGE TO QUESTION HMGAWRITINGS IN HIS URDU BOOKS!!!!
Why do Qadiani’s continually miss the point.
The point is not why the man wrote the 1000 curses but the fact that he did showed this man’s level of thinking.
Was our beloved Prophet PBUH not attacked and our religion Islam not abused by the enemies of Islam.
The answer to this is YES and in a much worse way than MGA ever experienced.
However did our beloved Prophet PBUH resort to such lowly displays of behaviour based on the premise that he had reason to?
The answer to this is NO so why then does an alleged godly man MGA resort to tactics of such bad manners.
Did he think Allah was not aware of the attacks upon him. If he believed Allah was aware, did he not feel confident that Allah would curse and destroy his opposers?
Answer is OBVIOUSLY NOT which is why he resorted to school playground tactics.
The best example is that of the way of the Prophet PBUH and MGA clearly didn’t feel this way was good enough which is why he made up his own ways and means.
It’s beggars belief that an alleged Prophet who brought no new religion and claimed to be a follower of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH would behave in a way that totally contradicted the way and example of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
It’s even worse that people would beleve in him.
All Qadianis need to understand we are not interested in why your alleged Prophet behaved with such lowly manners it’s just enough for us to k ow he did to believe he was a charlatans.
Prophets and Messengers sent by our creator Allah never displayed such strange behaviour.
So stop trying to justify why he did these things. Simply accept that he did and did not do so by following the example of the beat and last of Prophets Muhammad PBUH.
This should be enough for any person whose heart Allah has not sealed to know that something is not right.
And Allah SWT know best.
LET SHAHID KAMAL AHMAD ANSWER CHALLENEG OF DR. ZAHID AZIZ. I will post it on Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement blog:
www dot ahmadiyya dot org
@PO:
More than 30 hours ago i gave detail answer, in which i explained what Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib believed about Isaa AS birth, and what was Maulana Noor Ud Din and what Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement translators of Holy Quran have written and what is general belief on this issue.
My post got deleted from moderation.
Briefly: Hazrat Isaa AS was FATHERED BY A MAN.
Isaa AS was conceived JUST THE WAY YOU AND EVER HUMAN BEING INCLUDING RASUL ALLAH SAWS WERE CONCEIVED.
NOW don’t bring Hazrat Adam birth issue, here.
FYI: The Prophet Adam was also conceived they way you were conceived.
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT LIES OF SHAHID KAMAL AHMAD. AND I AM HERE TO EXPOSE HIS LIES AND IGNORANCE WITH HAZRAT MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD (HMGA) WRITINGS. HE CAN NOT READ URDU AND THEN HAS COURAGE TO QUESTION HMGAWRITINGS IN HIS URDU BOOKS!!!!
Rashid your behaving like a man possesed.
You keep repeating the same thing again and again.
Do you not see this is the same strange behaviour as MGA.
Let me ask you would any man become your follower after having seen the way you have behaved just on this blog?
The answer would be a RESOUNDING NO. Why then do you follow and try to defend a man who behaved even stranger than this?
Just give me an example from the Prophet Muhammad to justify the ways an means of the charlatan MGA and I will accept him.
Until then keep your challenge delusions to yourself.
Rashid is simply asking for Shahid Kamal to back up his accusation of thousand curses with evidence; which is only fair. However, in response Rashid is being abused. I think Rahisd is being repititive because his valid question is not being answered.
Every day, nasty people write horrible things about Islam, things far worse than in your prophet Mirza’s time. Do you see the best of Muslims responding with a thousand numbered curses in print?
Shahid Kamal Ahmad sahib:
Osman wrote: Rashid is simply asking for Shahid Kamal to back up his accusation of thousand curses with evidence; which is only fair.
Shahid in reply you wrote: Do you see the best of Muslims responding with a thousand numbered curses in print?
Shahid you evaded question of Dr. Zahid Aziz. His question was: Shahid Kamal Ahmad should show us the place where Hazrat Mirza sahib wrote “curse” a thousand times. We will then demand that he present just twenty lines of the preceding Urdu text and twelve lines of following Urdu text, and declare that according to his present beliefs as a Muslim the persons mentioned in that text are innocent and do not deserve curse.
Shahid you please stop evading questions of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement members, and I will NOT need to repeat my posts/ questions.
Shahid PLEASE stop deleting my posts. If you have objection on any word in my post, I will either give you reason for my use or I will stop using that word.
PLEASE LET’S HAVE A HONEST AND CIVIL DISCUSSION. LET US ALL LEARN. I want to clarify misunderstanding you have regarding Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (HMGA) sahib. And you are welcome to correct Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) members understanding about HMGA sahib.
TO THE REST OF THE READERS/ POSTERS:
This thread is about Shahid statements, which he made in Iqra program. LAM members considers Shahid statements to be FALSE and DISTORTION of facts. Let Shahid defend his statements.
So, PLEASE keep focused on the purpose of this thread. For other question such as Isaa AS birth/ death etc you may go to LAM blog and discuss it there. Thanks. Their blog address:
www dot ahmadiyya dot org
If you continue to re-post dozens of times with messages of abuse and peppered with links, then you will fall foul of the automatic spam filter.
I don’t actually have time to read through all of your rants. If you need my time, you will need to state a succinct case for it in a decent way instead of trying to engage with me in this florid and argumentative style.
My time is very valuable, and I try to spend it with those who deserve it.
Further, please don’t use this as a venue to advertise your web site or your comments will be summarily deleted.
I think people have comprehension issues… look, I personally agree with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad… wow I do!? Yes. Such a man does deserves to be cursed. However, what people do not understand is that it is the method he employed in venting this curse that is the issue. Which person in his right mind repeatedly numbers and writes curse one thousand times!? A Prophet? I think not. Is it not sufficient to say the curse of Allah (SWT) is upon such a person? Why one thousand? Is that all the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is worth? why not one million curses? My point is trying to make one realise had he simply said the curse of Allah (SWT) is upon this man there would be no issue. It is his mentality of writing curse one thousand times that makes you question his psyche. Such morals do not befit a Prophet of Allah (SWT).
This aside, could someone please justify Mirza Ghulam Ahmad labeling every single human outside his cult, the sons of prostitutes?
P.S. Brother Shahid Kamal did not lie. He stated a fact, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has written one thousand curses in his book… has he not? I think you will find he has, therefore it is a matter of fact.
newobserver,
how dishonest can you be?
You have certainly been unable to prove that promised messiah(as) insulted isa(as), whereas i have provided powerful refrences that put down the refrences you have provided me with, making use of unparralled logic from http://www.alislam.org.
here is the refrence again: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/refutation/refutation-of-insult.pdf
Which unparalleled logic – could you please repeat here? I have read this whole book of refutation and it has no logic that justifies calling Hazrat Issa as inferior most.
Tahir hussain,
but don’t you understand his immense love for the prophet(saw) as a reason for doing so. Why do you ignore that. The reason why he said 1000 times is because people reading it can also repeat afterwards as has been explained in the book, Noor ul haq.
You are right when you said ‘a prophet!’, because the understanding of prophets hearts is outside the scope of normal people, especially things like the love of God, love of other prophets etc.
John Hinckley, Jr. proved his love for Jodie Foster by attempting assassination of US President Ronald Reagan. I take it you belong to the school of thought that believes that “anything goes”.
This was not a method of Rasulullah (saw), it is the method of a cheap street mullah. Undignified and crass.
Peace… did he (MGA) love him so much that he robbed him (SAW) of the finality of his (SAW) prophethood and tried claiming it (finality) for himself?
Or
Did he (MGA) love him (SAW) so much that by using the metaphor of the moon he boasts he is spiritually superior to him?
I’m sorry but your excuse that he did this out of love for the Prophet (SAW) is illogical. Did the Sahaba (RA) react the same way? Did the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) not love Allah (SWT) enough to do the same when people attributed that to the Lord which did not befit His majestic nature?
Explain to me why according to the standards of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad we are haraam zadah? If I called you the son of a prostitute, how would you feel?
I think the Ahmadi overlook the fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad provoked people to slander the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Now we are all aware of the Danish cartoons, are we not? Now let’s assume that such a person drew these pictures after seeing Mirza Ghulam Ahmad mock Christianity by insultingly drawing, yes drawing, pictures of the Trinity i.e. the father, the spirit and the holy ghost. If he used this argument as justification, how can any Ahmadi counter his reasoning? (we can as we do not believe in MGA or his manners) Now I know how Ahmadi’s work, do no start saying such and such a mullah said this, snap out of this mullah business as we do not accept such mullahs. Our leader is the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) his companions and the righteous predecessors, not any Saudi mullah you might start quoting.
Do you really think Christians of the time would see his insults to Jesus Christ (AS) (ignoring the FACT that at times he was blatantly refering to Hazrat Isa (AS) of the Holy Qur’an) and not insult the greatest of mankind BECAUSE OF MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD? This is simple logic that the common man possesses i.e. you mock my religious figures, I will mock yours. The fuel was MGA, he insults other religious figues with dialogue that does not encourage openess to dicuss differences but fuels hatred and therefore results in attacks on the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) (which may I add seems to be the case of his followers who INDIRECTLY attack the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to justify actions and literature of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad), what love he had indeed (sarcasm, in case some didn’t pick that up).
The fact remains that he scornfully attacked Hazrat Isa (AS), even assuming that it was Jesus Christ (AS) of the Gospels as the Christians make him out to be i.e. the Son of God .Surely you agree with me that he attacked this figure do you not? Now I could let you answer this first and then hit you with the following quote but I do not see the point with Ahmadis anymore as they agree with you that X is blashpamous until you show them X was said by MGA and then they sell their soul to defend X (though previously agreeing that it is ludicrous)… I think we can both agree that he did insult the Chrisitian figure right? Now consider how he clarifies, in light of this, that he killed his own soul and destroyed his own spiritual prospects.
“Dear Friends! Age-old experience and repeated trials have established, without question that to insult and abuse the Prophets and Messengers of different countries and peoples is such a deadly poison which not only destroys the body but also kills the soul, thereby ruining the worldly prospects as well as the spiritual… Such people can never achieve true unity who, one-sided or mutually, refer to each other’s prophets or saints or divines with malice or foul language…As for us (the Muslims) we never use indecent language with regard to the prophets of other peoples.”
I am a common everyday person… imagine the power of a learned scholar upon analysing MGA. This isn’t a contest of “we are better than you, here is the evidence to prove it haha in you face”. Do not misinterpret our intentions which are simply to open ones eyes from darkness to light. We are simply and humbly spreading the message, guidance is only with Allah (SWT).
Peace.
Are none of you going to give me a reply?
Waiting for Shahid Kamal Ahmad sahib answer.
I’ll tell you what Rashid, if you write down in your own handwriting the fact that you want Shahid to answer 1000 times maybe you will get your wish.
And you will also be following the way of your false leader.
Shahid Kamal Ahmad sahib you have a GREAT opportunity to teach people like myself what is truth. PLEASE do NOT let this opportunity pass by. You will be answerable to Allah SWT for not correcting misunderstanding of people like me.
After this “1000 curses” we can go to your statements like HMGA visions and his English Ilhams.
But FIRST let’s look into ’1000 curses’:
Shahid Kamal Ahmad sahib, YOU should show us the place where Hazrat Mirza sahib wrote “curse” a thousand times. Then tell us what he presented in just twenty lines of the preceding Urdu text and twelve lines of following Urdu text, and then declare that according to YOUR present beliefs as a Muslim the persons mentioned in that text are innocent and do not deserve curse.
Thank you sir!
It is my duty to convey the message. Allah (SWT) alone provides guidance. It appears that you do not read so well. My position has been made very clear in a number of previous messages, which you have chosen to ignore.
Shahid Kamal Ahmad sahib:
Sir,
You wrote: My position has been made very clear in a number of previous messages, which you have chosen to ignore.
Sir,
PLEASE give date and time stamp of ONLY one message, that you are referring. Don’t you want to guide me??? What will you answer Allah SWT if you don’t guide this “misguided” human???
PLEASE FOR GOD SAKE provide me the date and time of your JUST ONE message of GUIDANCE.
Many THANKS in advance.
Dear Rashid,
If Shahid had objected why Mirza Sb cursed a Christian you could pose the question if the person under attack were innocent or not.
Here he has objected on the lunatic method of physically writing the word laanat a thousand times. By the shear act the persons seems to be a lunatic and that is the point of discussion so please focus on it.
I fail to understand that if Shahid thinks that HMGA did a lunatic act by allegedly curing some one a thousand times then why is he so reluctant to give the quote of the text where he this has occured and provide the context and then declare that the accursed person(s) should not have been cursed a thousand times; and if the said person(s) has been cursed a thousand times then it is a “lunatic act”. This is only a fair demand and the failure of Shahid to respond to it is perplexing.
Bilal was the slave of Omaiyah bin Khalaf. When Omaiyah found out about Bilal’s acceptance of Islam, he began to beat and torture him severely. Often a rope was put around Bilal’s neck and they would drag him through the streets and hills of Makkah. At times they would starve him and he became very weak. At others he was bound up, made to lie down on the burning sand, under the crushing weight of heavy stones.
Thy tried their hardest to force Bilal to leave Islam but they were unsuccessful. Bilal was strong in his belief in the Oneness of Allah. Even under the severest persecutions, the words Ahad, Ahad were repeated by Bilal. On one such occasion, Abu Bakr came across the suffering and ill-treatment of Bilal. Abu Bakr immediately purchased Bilal and freed him from slavery.
Ammar bin Yasir, a freed slave of Bani Makhzum, along with his mother and father, embraced Islam in its early stages. They were repeatedly made to lie on the burning sand and were beaten very badly. Ammar was at times tossed up on hot embers. The Prophet (pbuh) was saddened greatly by this harsh treatment and always comforted them and raised his hand in prayer and said: “Be patient, you will verily find your abode in the Paradise.” His father, Yasir, died because of repeated tortures. His Mother, Sumaiyah, was bayoneted to death by Abu Jahl himself. Sumaiyah was the first woman martyred in Islam.
Ammar himself was subjected to torture and was always threatened to sustain severe suffering unless he abused Muhammad (pbuh) and accepted their idols. In a weak moment, he said some word but his heart never wavered. He came once to the Prophet (pbuh), who consoled him for his pain and confirmed his faith. Some verses from the Qu’ran came down saying that if a person has faith in his heart but is forced to denounce Islam, his Iman is still safe.
Abu Fakeeh, Aflah, a freed slave of Bani ‘Abd Ad-Dar was the third of those helpless victims. The oppressors used to fasten his feet with a rope and drag him in the streets of Makkah.
Khabbab bin Al-Aritt was also an easy victim to similar outrages on every possible occasion. He experienced extreme torture and maltreatment. The Makkans used to pull his hair and twist his neck, and made him lie on burning coal with a big rock on his chest to prevent him from escaping. Many Muslims were tortured in the same way causing much harm and sadness within the community. For some, their lives became so unbearable that they were commanded later to do Hijra to safety in Abyssinia
Not even the prophet (pbuh) was spared from their evil. The prophet’s daughters Ruqaiya and Umm Kulthum were both married to the sons of Abu Lahab. Abu Lahab ordered both of his sons to divorce their wives and sent them back to the prophet (pbuh). The Prophet (pbuh) was very sad when this happened. His uncle had been so happy when the marriage of his sons had taken place to the daughters of Muhammad. Hatred and spite had caused Abu Lahab to force his son’s to leave their wives. Abu Lahab was also happy when the prophet’s son died even though the prophet’s household was so sad.
The prophet (pbuh) was abused even in Makkah, in the Sanctuary – the area in and around the Ka’bah. Even when the prophet (pbuh) was praying he was attacked or mocked. There are many records of the verbal and physical abuse against the prophet (pbuh) but the prophet still remained faithful to his mission and deen.
The wife of Abu Lahab, Umm Jameel bint Harb, the sister of Abu Sufyan, used to tie bundles of thorns and would throw them in the paths which the Prophet (pbuh) would take. She wanted the prophet (pbuh) to get injured by this. She was an enemy of the Prophet (pbuh) and had great hatred for him. Once she took a handful of pebbles to the sanctuary where the prophet (pbuh) and Abu Bakr were sitting. She had the intention of hurting the prophet (pbuh) but Allah took away her sight so that she could not see the prophet (pbuh). She only saw Abu Bakr, who happened to be sitting next to the prophet (pbuh). She went over to him and said some abusive things before going.
Read the above and then tell me oh Rashid did the Prophet PBUH or any of these other people (may Allah be pleased with them) feel the need to write 1000 curses even thought they had reason to?
Indeed it was Allah who sent revelation to curse some of these people such as Abu Lahab
Al-Masadd
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish. (1) His wealth and gains will not exempt him. (2) He will be plunged in flaming Fire, (3) And his wife, the wood-carrier, (4) Will have upon her neck a halter of palm-fibre. (5)
Subhanallah Allah was truly with his true people. Why did the liar MGA not just wait for his creators help?
Was he afraid it would not come?
I am sure he knew it would not come.
What exactly is the issue. Are you unaware of reference? Why don’t you write it down?
No matter if the person under attack was Abu Jahal; writing the same word of curse a thousand times was a lunatic act. Though Mirza Sb calims that he did such acts to help British Government.
Issue is that despite repeated requests and reasonable passage of time, the failure of Shahid to show reference and context implies that either he himself did not have full knowledge of the accusation he was making or was deliberately hiding information.
So are you saying it is wrong to curse Abu Jahal a thousand times?
Typical Qadiani- mindset missing the point completely.
I am saying that our beloved Prophet PBUH did not deem it appropriate to resort to such demeaning tactics. But then he did have Allah on his side as is blatantly evident, from the Surah that was revealed.
Your false Prophet evidently was not reliant in his Creator for any such help and took it upon himself to do the cursing.
This does not seem like a man following in the way of any of the Prophets and actions such as this expose him for the charlatan that he was.
Now WHO CARES what was said to him to make him write the curses. WE SAY it is not behaviour befitting an allegged Prophet.
How obvious is that difference people, how can that be missed on any intelligent and rational individual.
AllahuMustaan.
@Newobservor:
We are NOT in a court room and you’re NOT Shahid’s attorney. So, PLEASE let him answr and let him guide this “misguided” human. Thanks.
After this i would like to learn other “gems” from him, that he found in HMGA writings. I will also like to learn english “grammer’ from him. i wonder what kind of “teacher” he is, who is NOT willing to teach to “misguided” souls.
@Pleezing One
There is no particular official stance of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement regarding the birth of Jesus as this matter is not considered a central tenet of the Islamic faith and is a matter of personal conviction of each individual based on his/her understanding of the Quran.
http://aaiil.info/misconceptions/jesus/birth.htm
The founder HMGA believed in Immaculate Conception, while the first emir, Maulana Muhammad Ali, had a different interpretation of the Quran and thought otherwise. It is up to each member of the movement to read and honestly try to understand the Quran and have faith in what appeals to his/her intellect. It is also important to approach the Quran with an open heart and without pre-conceived notions that having a certain interpretation is “taking a position against the Quran”, without even bothering to reading and understanding the Quran first. Also it should be noted that belief in the normal birth of Jesus is not exclusive to some members of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement.
http://aaiil.info/misconceptions/jesus/muslimv.htm
@Pleezing One
There is no particular official stance of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement regarding the birth of Jesus as this matter is not considered a central tenet of the Islamic faith and is a matter of personal conviction of each individual based on his/her understanding of the Quran.
The founder HMGA believed in Immaculate Conception, while the first emir, Maulana Muhammad Ali, had a different interpretation of the Quran and thought otherwise. It is up to each member of the movement to read and honestly try to understand the Quran and have faith in what appeals to his/her intellect. It is also important to approach the Quran with an open heart and without pre-conceived notions that having a certain interpretation is “taking a position against the Quran”, without even bothering to reading and understanding the Quran first.
Osman,
I just read quran and post the translation here too. If your leader Muhammad aali was taking a postion against Quran, why doi you have to follow him? You have to chose between Quran and your leader M Ali..
You seem to shrugg your position off saying its not a tennent of Islam. Why do you forget that if you claim to be Muslim, Quran is the book you have to follow and accept as word of God. DID YOU READ QURAN BEFORE COMMENTING ON YOUR POSIOTION? The arogance in your response will not help you. Go back and consider when Hz Maryam A.s. protested that how can I bear a child when no MAN HAS EVER TOUCHED ME… No amount of twists and taweels can change that EXCEPT BLIND CULT MENTALITY which is written all over your post..
Here is the translation by M. Asad. ( Read about M. Asad, a jew by birth, a very kerned man and later converted to Islam. He is faaaaar more learned and informed than your M ali)
19:19 (Asad) [The angel] answered: “I’ am but a messenger of thy Sustainer, [who says,] `I shall bestow upon thee the gift of a son endowed with purity.’”
19:20 (Asad) Said she: “How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me? – for, never have I been a loose woman!”
19:21 (Asad) [The angel] answered: “Thus it is; [but] thy Sustainer says, `This is easy for Me; [15] and [thou shalt have a son,] so that We might make him a symbol unto mankind and an act of grace from US. [16] And it was a thing decreed [by God]:
Above is very clear to sincere seekers of truth.
- She (Maryam a.s.) was given a good news ofd a son.
- She complained that how can she conceive without any MAN EVEN TOUCHING HER..( Is this not enough proof that Lahoris are also follow cult mentality, NOT QURAN)
- Allah tala also told her that all that was for a reason as God wanted to make Essa a.s. a sign and grace for mankind..
THE SAME ESSA A.S. who was insulted and abused in the most vile and cheap languge by Mirza Qadiani…who piled heaps of praises for Queen Victoria..
Interesting that you should quote Maulana Asad as his take on the very verses you have quoted (especially 19:20) appears to be at odds with yours.
I regularly read both M Ali and M Asad and am in awe of thier understanding of the Holy Book. My own relative lack of knowledge refrains me from making a judgemental statement on who is more knowledgabe among the two, so I will not dignify your little jibe at M Ali with a response more that what I have just stated.
why are you evading the point? You can see that your stance is against Quran, is this not enough proof that you are on the wrong side of the truth?
And how many points have you evaded in this post? Any way this is just uselss banter. What would be useful is if you can tell me what stance I have knowingly taken against the Quran? If you are refering to Maulan Muhammad Ali’s interpretation of the birth of Jesus in the Quran, then hold your horses here and follow the latest post (in respone to Ex-Ahmadi) as the same issue has been raised there. If you have some thing to add do it there.
Sorry for the repeated posts regarding Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement and the birth of Jesus. Please only consider the one responded to by Ex-Ahmadis and ignore the rest. Mistake on my part.
Apologies for the length of the post above in reply to Osman but I felt all of it was relevant in opposing the methodology he is trying to coerce the readers into accepting is fine.
Listen guys:
Discussion in this thread should focus on what Shahid alleged HMGA in his video. Jesus birth/ death is NOT relevant to this thread. By digressing we are losing focus. Unless it is STRATEGY of Shahid’s friends to save him from OBVIOUS embarrassment!!!
Rashid, the only person getting embarrassed here is you. Please quit with your unintelligent drivel or continue it on your own blog. It won’t be tolerated here anymore. If you value the freedom you have here, please behave accordingly.
Is Rashid the bloke that looks like Jaba the Hut. Dude, you gotta get the whole hygeine thing figured out.
WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO!!!!!!!
HAZRAT SHAHID KAMAL AHMAD SAHIB:
Sir, you wrote:
“Shahid November 10, 2009 at 12:50 am
…… It appears that you do not read so well. My position has been made very clear in a number of previous messages, which you have chosen to ignore.”
Sir, in reply i wrote:
“Rashid November 10, 2009 at 3:32 am
Shahid Kamal Ahmad sahib:
…..
Sir,
PLEASE give date and time stamp of ONLY one message, that you are referring.”
I will always be in debt to you if you could guide my “misguided” soul by referring ONLY ONCE where you previously made your position clear.
THANK YOU, SIR.
Here is the content of just one of my messages, which like many, you failed to respond to:
“Every day, nasty people write horrible things about Islam, things far worse than in your prophet Mirza’s time. Do you see the best of Muslims responding with a thousand numbered curses in print?”
That’s enough.
Discussion between Ex Qadiani Akbar Ahmad Chaudhry and Qadiani Anwar Mirza on Iqra TV.
http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/
HAZRAT SHAHID KAMAL AHMAD SAHIB
Sir Question that I asked you:
“Rashid November 9, 2009 at 7:11 am
FOR SHAHID KAMAL AHMAD:
…………..
Shahid Kamal Ahmad should show us the place where Hazrat Mirza sahib wrote “curse” a thousand times. We will then demand that he present just twenty lines of the preceding Urdu text and twelve lines of following Urdu text, and declare that according to his present beliefs as a Muslim the persons mentioned in that text are innocent and do not deserve curse.”
Sir you replied:
“Shahid November 11, 2009 at 12:48 am
…………….
“Every day, nasty people write horrible things about Islam, things far worse than in your prophet Mirza’s time. Do you see the best of Muslims responding with a thousand numbered curses in print?””
Sir you live in a country, where there is great history and tradition of upholding the rule of law.
Don’t you think, when you accuse some one of committing a crime and call him a criminal, at least onuses is on you to tell the accused what crime he committed? Where, when and how he committed? And don’t you think you at least owe it to the accused the proof and evidence of crime?
Sir, YOU HAVE NOT REPLIED TO MY QUESTIONS. YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED THE EVIDENCE OF CRIME!!!
Sir, YOU NEED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE.
Until you answer my question, I will keep on reminding you, YOUR DUTY.
Waiting for answers to my questions. Eagerly waiting to gain some light from your enlightenment.
Gentleman: You’re just saying “That’s enough” IS NOT ENOUGH.
Shahid: You made allegation on HMGA on live TV where perhaps thousand of people heard you. You owe it to other and myself, who read your blog, that you provide proof of your allegation.
Thanks.
QUOTE-Shahid: You made allegation on HMGA on live TV where perhaps thousand of people heard you. You owe it to other and myself, who read your blog, that you provide proof of your allegation-UNQUOTE
When you say it is an allegation. Do you want to say Mirza Sb did not do it?
Allegation means an un-proven accusation. So calling an accusation an allegation is not necessarily a denial of it, but is a call for proof. So the solution for Mr. Shahis is simple. Provide the proof.
You may ask the proof if you think it is not truth. If you know it already to be a truth then what is the proof you are looking for?
What I or Rashid think is not the issue. The issue is that the accuser must show the proof backing up his accusation Instead of arguing over it why doesn’t Shahid just provide the proof and end the matter.
You are right; we can give the reference and end the debate.
However, it is another interesting aspect of your belief system. You know Mirza Sb wrote this but still you ask for a proof. Why?
“You are right; we can give the reference and end the debate.”
Please do so. But be sure to include the complete context as earlier requested so the entire truth comes forth and not the half-truth.
“However, it is another interesting aspect of your belief system. You know Mirza Sb wrote this but still you ask for a proof. Why?”
I am not too sure what you mean by our belief system, but I have already answered why proof is being asked for; shortly that it is the civilised way of accusing any one, i.e, with proof. Not every one reading this blog knows what Mirza sb has or has not written and in what context. So it is only fair that the accuser should give the complete information, which he is not doing….why?
Brothers, honestly these people are lost.
Alhamdulilah it will be clear by the grace of Allah, the all mighty to anybody reading these posts that the Qadiani’s are doing nothing but trying to justify an act that any sane person would consider strange.
They are not denying that the charlatan MGA wrote the thousand curses they just want everyone to believe that there was a valid reason for doing so.
We as Muslims maintain that this was not from the way of the Prophets and therefore we reject this behaviour for what it was, lowly and foolish.
In conclusion if any reader is really interested in what prompted this charlatan to invent a new and perverse means of defending Islam contrary to the way of the Prophets then let them please post messages to Rashid or Osman or any other Qadiani to provide them with this information.
Qadiani’s please stop repeating the same rubbish, he wrote the curses we are in agreement on this.
You feel it was justified although it went against the way of the Prophets. That’s your prerogative and we will answer for what we believe.
Stop forcing that justification on to all and sundry.
I guess when the truth hurts nothing but frenzied rhetoric and confusion helps soothe away the pain.
First of all a few clarifications which are necessary due to some statements of Ex-Ahmadis and Pleezing One which falsely attribute certain ideas to me.
“Quote: What can be more inflammatory than stating that the word of Allah can be interpreted any which way we feel like and not the way it was interpreted by the best person ever to have graced this earth PBUH.”
I said nothing of the sort which says that one should make up a personal interpretation of the Quran and give it preference over an interpretation by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Quote: “If your leader Muhammad aali was taking a postion against Quran, why doi you have to follow him? You have to chose between Quran and your leader M Ali..”
I said nothing of the sort which implied that I am following Maulana Muhammad Ali when he is taking a position against the Quran. If I have please prove it from my post.
Quote “Why do you forget that if you claim to be Muslim, Quran is the book you have to follow and accept as word of God”
I said nothing of the sort that shows I have forgotten that Quran is the book Muslims have to follow and accept as the word of God. If I have, prove it from my post.
Quote” EXCEPT BLIND CULT MENTALITY which is written all over your post..”
Exactly which part of my post has “blind cult mentality” “written all over” it?
Quote” stop belittling the final Prophet PBUH and his message”
Please prove that I have (nauzubillah) belittled the final Prophet (pbuh). If you cannot prove then you are guilty of un-justly accusing me of the severest of crimes, and unless you apologize I will ask you on the Day of Judgment that why did you accuse of the most abhorrent of actions without reason. You had previously called my post rubbish and I chose to ignore that, but I cannot ignore you accusing me of (Nauzubillah) belittling the final and last Prophet (pbuh) of God. However, if it was an honest mistake on your part then it is no blame on you, but my position having been clarified please do not make this accusation again.
I have been forced to post all of this as earlier I had simply responded to a specific request for the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) position on the birth of Jesus. In return a fiery response in inflammatory language was posted full of baseless accusations. I then wrote another post to clarify the accusations, in response to which a host of more baseless accusation were made that I have been forced to clarify again as above. I am sure in response some more imaginary shortcomings will be attributed to me as that seems to be the modus operandi here.
Now if you disagree with Maulana Muhammad Ali’s interpretation of the Quran regarding the birth of Jesus then that is just fine. However, making a statement that the said interpretation is akin to taking a position against the Quran, and then extrapolating this to conclude that I have a blind cult mentality or have forgotten that Quran is the word of God is just preposterous. I will have more to say on this in a later post.
Osman first of all let me apologise for accusing you of anything.
This was an oversight on my part as it may be that you have not expressed your own opinion on anything and I have misunderstood.
QUOTE
‘It is up to each member of the movement to read and honestly try to understand the Quran and have faith in what appeals to his/her intellect. It is also important to approach the Quran with an open heart and without pre-conceived notions that having a certain interpretation is “taking a position against the Quran”, without even bothering to reading and understanding the Quran first.’
UNQUOTE.
Is the above your opinion or that of somebody else. If it was your opinion then I stand by my comments, however, if it was somebody else’s then forgive me for attributing it to you.
You sound from the way you write like a reasonable enough person who I may be able to have an adult discussion with.
Let us start, simply by putting our cards on the table and stating exactly what we believe in.
At least this way we can be sure that we are basing our comments on something the other directly believes rather than making assumptions. I am sure you will agree this is a fair request.
Your comments above appear to lend support to some gravely deviated beliefs whilst still giving you the opportunity to hide behind the ‘prove it from my post’ mantra.
For the purposes of taking the lead I will start with what I believe.
I believe that the Prophet Muhammad PBUH was the final Prophet and anybody that claims Prophecy after him will be a liar.
I believe that our beloved Prophet Eesa AS was conceived by the command of Allah without a father and I believe he AS is still alive and will return before the day of resurrection.
What do you believe with regards to these issues?
Once we have established what each of us believes on these issues we can discuss why we believe whatever we do and whose belief is according to the way of the final Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
Is this something you are able to do or is confusion, deceit and being cryptical better as a shield against the truth?
Osman first of all let me apologise for accusing you of anything.
This was an oversight on my part as it may be that you have not expressed your own opinion on anything and I have misunderstood.
QUOTE
‘It is up to each member of the movement to read and honestly try to understand the Quran and have faith in what appeals to his/her intellect. It is also important to approach the Quran with an open heart and without pre-conceived notions that having a certain interpretation is “taking a position against the Quran”, without even bothering to reading and understanding the Quran first.’
UNQUOTE.
Is the above your opinion or that of somebody else. If it was your opinion then I stand by my comments, however, if it was somebody else’s then forgive me for attributing it to you.
You sound from the way you write like a reasonable enough person who I may be able to have an adult discussion with.
Let us start, simply by putting our cards on the table and stating exactly what we believe in.
At least this way we can be sure that we are basing our comments on something the other directly believes rather than making assumptions. I am sure you will agree this is a fair request.
Your comments above appear to lend support to some gravely deviated beliefs whilst still giving you the opportunity to hide behind the ‘prove it from my post’ mantra.
For the purposes of taking the lead I will start with what I believe.
I believe that the Prophet Muhammad PBUH was the final Prophet and anybody that claims Prophecy after him will be a liar.
I believe that our beloved Prophet Eesa AS was conceived by the command of Allah without a father and I believe he AS is still alive and will return before the day of resurrection.
What do you believe with regards to these issues?
Once we have established what each of us believes on these issues we can discuss why we believe whatever we do and whose belief is according to the way of the final Prophet Muhammad PBUH.
Is this something you are able to do or is confusion, deceit and being cryptical better as a shield against the truth?
For the purposes of taking the lead I will start with what I believe.
I believe that the Prophet Muhammad PBUH was the final Prophet and anybody that claims Prophecy after him will be a liar.
I believe that our beloved Prophet Eesa AS was conceived by the command of Allah without a father and I believe he AS is still alive and will return before the day of resurrection.
@Ex-Ahmadi
What I stated was the position of the LAM on the birth of Jesus, and an explanation of the same. I stand by all I said, which was in the context of the LAM position on the birth of Jesus.
I simply asked you to show how from my post you drew some of the specific conclusions that you did. It is not a mantra but a reasonable request, as some of the things you said were just not true. As I have clarifed my intent, the matter can end here. If you think you can deduce what you did regarding my faith and my intent from my post (all of which I stand by) then so be it. I know my what is in my heart better than you, so don’t really care but had to clarify once as this is a public forum.
The context also applies to my words you have quoted, as there is a differance of interpretation regarding the Quranic verses on the birth of Jesus. Before going on the following needs to be said:
I beleive that the Quran is the final word of Allah revealed to the final and last Prophet (pbuh) of Allah and that the word of Allah is prefered to anything followed by the word of the Prophet (pbuh). I only have a very basic understanding of Arabic hence rely on translations and commentaries of the Quran to understand the Holy Book. I usually refer to Maulana Muhamad Ali, Maulana Muhammad Asad and Maulan Maudoodi and also some others. I have found out that over certain verses there is more than one interpretation. In my opnion the use of one’s intellect is important to ascertain which interpretation is likey to be truest to the original word of God. It is not about “just making it up”, but using your brain to do an honest search for the pure form of Islam, as revealed to the Prophet (PBUH). It is not there on a plate to savour. You I know that differances erupted in the Muslim Ummah right after the Prohpet’s death.
Now regarding the birth of Jesus, most commentaries favor a virgin birth. Some like Maulana Muhammad Asad imply the matter is inconclusive from the Quran. Most LAM scholars argue that it was a natural birth. These arguments have not been just made up as you seemd to think, but are based on the Quran itself (under the premise that according to the Quran there cannot be any contradictions in it) and the Holy Prophet’s (PBUH) interaction with the Chrisitan delegation from Najran reported in many classical commentaries. Allah knows best.
QUOTE
‘It is not about “just making it up”, but using your brain to do an honest search for the pure form of Islam, as revealed to the Prophet (PBUH). ‘
UNQUOTE
Never a truer sentence written than the one above. I will be the first to accept that you and I are in total agreement on this statement.
Come let’s you and I try and find that pure form of Islam.
I think a start would be if we relied on commentaries and tafsir by the most renowned scholars in this field such as Ibn Kathir amongst others.
Thanks for your reply, please clarify for me what you believe.
I appreciate you have told me what the various Maulana’s believe which viewpoint do you follow in relation to all these matters?
Is the LAM position your position?
Believe me when I say that these are not trick questions. You are quite right that I do not know what is in your heart, it is for this reason i ask you to state your beliefs.
You have once again just told me what various other people believe.
Let’s make this simple shall we, I will ask simple questions and you can give me simple answers based upon your beliefs.
You have stated
QUOTE
‘I believe that the Quran is the final word of Allah revealed to the final and last Prophet (pbuh) of Allah and that the word of Allah is prefered to anything followed by the word of the Prophet (pbuh).’
UNQUOTE
1.Is it fair to then assume that you do not believe MGA to be a Prophet and anybody who claims he is would be a liar?
2.Do you believe in the immaculate conception of Eesa AS?
3.Do you believe the Prophet Eesa AS is alive and will return before the end of time?
Three very simple questions my friend. Please keep your replies simple as I am not an intellect and struggle to do cryptic crosswords at the best of times.
REMINDER 1:
Shahid Kamal Ahmad:
In your appearance on Good Morning with Iqra, you accused Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib, the Mujjaddid (reformer) of 14th Islamic Hijra century, of NOT worth calling a decent person because of language he used in his writings i.e. ‘1000 curses’.
Since you accused Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib, so please:
Show us the place where Hazrat Mirza sahib wrote “curse” a thousand times. And then also present just twenty lines of the preceding Urdu text and twelve lines of following Urdu text (to give the complete context of his quote), and declare that according to your present beliefs as a Muslim the persons mentioned in that text are innocent and do not deserve curse.
I will keep reminding you this question, until you reply me.
Thanks.
If you repeat this crazy talk, you will lose your rights to post on this blog. I’ve given you a perfectly good answer and you choose repeatedly to ignore it in the manner of someone who is truly irrational.
Rashid,
You seem to be more of a blind follower than ignorant of Mirza’s writings. He did write 1000 curses, one after the other, that shows his ‘power’ of pen and ‘great’ thinking.
Here is the refernce for you that you so desparately seeking.
http://aaiil.org/urdu/books/mirzaghulamahmad/noorulhaq/noorulhaq1.pdf
Go to page no. 118 of the book and start counting and feel disgusted already…
“To curse is not the quality of a siddiq (truthful). A believer does not send curses.” (Roohani Khazain Volume 3 – Izala Auham – Page 456)
Those are the words of Mirza so why write 1000 curses?
Does that not make him a hypocrite?
For Rashid Jangiri, the overwieght weird guy.
Shahid has given an answer to your repeated questioning.
Do you need us to send a cartoon to you which would use sign language to describe this answer.
I will make it simple:
SHAHIDS ANSWER:
IT DOESNT MATTER THAT mga WAS REPSONDING TO ONE WHO CURSED OUR BELOVED MUSTAFA. NOWADAYS THIS THING HAPPENS FREQUENTLY. WASNT TABARI CURSING MUSTAFA BY WRITING THAT HE LUSTED FOR ZAINAB?
ITS THE METHODOLOGY OF mga THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT. ITS THE BRAIN PROCESS THAT WE ARE CRITISIZING. A NORMAL PERSON DOESNT WRITE “LAANAT” 1000 TIMES.
I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS IN ELEMENTERY SCHOOL, AS A PUNISHMENT I HAD TO WRITE SOMETHING 100 TIMES.
THIS IS THE CHILDISH DEMEANOR OF YOUR MESSIAH. HE WAS MENTALLY DERANGED.
any more clarification?…JABA
WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rashid you should stop repeating yourself as you are clearly missing the point.
Brothers we should not personally attack the Qadiani’s who are commenting.
I’m sure we all remember when we were party of this cult what it felt like when we were personally attacked by people, especially the ignorant Pakistani Mullahs.
We have too much evidence on our sides to resort to such lowly methods.
Yes these people miss the point continually, and answer in cryptic ways to confuse readers but then this is the basis of the entire cult.
How we look is from the creator and we should all fear Allah.
“Cursing is not the style of a truthful person. Faithful (M’omin) does not curse.” (Rohaani Kazain Volume 3 – Izala-e-Auham – Page 660)
“It is against my nature to say any offensive words.” (Roohani Khazain Volume 4 – Aasmani Faisla Page 9)
“I have not even answered back anyone with abusive language.” (Roohani Khazain Volume 19 – Muwahib-Ur-Rehman – Page 236)
“CURSES (LAANAT) (1000 Times) ” – Volume 8 of Roohani Khazain. From pages 158 – 162
“And We indeed tested those who were before them. And Allâh will certainly make (it) known (the truth of) those who are true, and will certainly make (it) known (the falsehood of) those who are liars, (although Allâh knows all that before putting them to test)”. Surah: 29 Aya: 3
@Osman
Thanks for your reply, please clarify for me what you believe.
I appreciate you have told me what the various Maulana’s believe which viewpoint do you follow in relation to all these matters?
Is the LAM position your position?
Believe me when I say that these are not trick questions. You are quite right that I do not know what is in your heart, it is for this reason i ask you to state your beliefs.
You have once again just told me what various other people believe.
Let’s make this simple shall we, I will ask simple questions and you can give me simple answers based upon your beliefs.
You have stated
QUOTE
‘I believe that the Quran is the final word of Allah revealed to the final and last Prophet (pbuh) of Allah and that the word of Allah is prefered to anything followed by the word of the Prophet (pbuh).’
UNQUOTE
1.Is it fair to then assume that you do not believe MGA to be a Prophet and anybody who claims he is would be a liar?
2.Do you believe in the immaculate conception of Eesa AS?
3.Do you believe the Prophet Eesa AS is alive and will return before the end of time?
Three very simple questions my friend. Please keep your replies simple as I am not an intellect and struggle to do cryptic crosswords at the best of times.