Last Wednesday was the first time that a revert from Ahmadiyya to Islam was able to present his story, unimpeded, on broadcast television. It created shockwaves in the Ahmadiyya apparatus, with followers making baseless claims about “hate speech” to OfCom and with the Head of the UK Jama’at writing to the programme “Good Morning with Iqra”. This represented a major breakthrough in community relations.
Ahmadis can see for themselves by watching that show that we Muslims as a whole are against persecution of the Ahmadiyya and that the fears they have of Muslims are without foundation.
Today we had another first. Another revert, brother Akber Chaudry, appeared on the same show in a debate with an Ahmadi who went by the name of Anwar Mirza. Again, it was plain to see that fears of persecution are ruthlessly exploited by the Ahmadiyya leadership to keep its membership terrified and cloistered, but that the fear is out of all proportion to the reality.
Very soon insha’Allah, these programmes will be made available on-line, and you can judge for yourself. Last week I took live calls from Ahmadis. It would be interesting to see Mirza Masroor try that without rigging the lines. I invited him to a debate with any of our top alims. So seriously was this invitation taken that he asked Rafiq Hayat to respond. This engagement represents a breakthrough in communication for both sides. The opportunity for civil discourse must be grasped by both sides!
Today, you saw that an Ahmadi with knowledge of his religion, despite being given every opportunity to present his beliefs, was not able to provide a single argument in favour of his religion, not a single reason why a Muslim should accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet.
Ahmadis, you have nothing to lose but your chains.
Peace unto those who follow the guidance.
SubhaanAllah. I can not wait to hear the audio, your reward, inshAllah, is with Allah (SWT) brother Shahid.
Shahid:
If you think you are a honest person, then i CHALLENGE YOU TO INVITE DR. ZAHID AZIZ webmaster of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, UK website: http://www.ahmadiyya.org
On your TV program.
Show your honesty and boldness.
This is a challenge.
I am sure you will NOT invite him.
I declare you a COWERED MAN, in advance.
I am calling you COWERED because I know you.
You have run away from discussions and tried to hide behind the moderators of STUPID, DISHONEST forum of ATHEIST, and abuser of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS and Holy Quran i.e. Ahmad Karim Shaikh of http://www.ahmedi.org
Ahmadiyyat the real Islam, Ahmadiyyat is nothing but Following Quran and Hadiths of our beloved Holy Prophet Khatem Ul Nabeen Hazrat Mohammed (SAW).
We are follower of Promised Messiah, most Muslims are still waiting for coming of Messiah and we accepted him, we found all signs and he proved he is True from god, and we still after 100 years seeing signs of his truth and all revelations which Allah promised to Hazrat Promised Messiah.
Rashid: Do you have anything intelligent to add to this discussion? Who is Dr. Zahid Aziz? Is this your dad? Why dont you debate with someone? Are you not smart enough to debate yourself?
LOSERRRRRR
ZIA? Is this the same Zia al haqq (zucci) the son of the missionary in chino?
1. You dont follow hadith. You “pick and choose” what hadith to follow. Dont lie! You believe that Bukhari mistaken collected hadith, Do i have to show you? You follow a tradition that stated that Jesus lived until 125. Do you even know what book this is from? Do you know the reference point? Does Kanzulumml ring a bell? Do you know that this hadith doesnt appear in any of the 6 sahih/sunan books?
2. You dont follow the Koran. Sorry to burst your bubble. You re-interpret Islam, you re-define verses to fit your needs. Muslims follow the Koran based on the consensus of opinion of the mujadids. Mirzais dont!!! The koran that you follow is a watered down version of the original. And you are purposely mis-translating it and sending it all over the planet. What a SHAM.
3. When isa ibn maryam was to nuzul(descend) back to this planet he was to live for 40 years(check the hadith that you claim to follow). MGAQ used this hadith to claim that he would live until he was 80. MGAQ started his mission in 1882. He died 14 years early. This prophecy was proven false. The mirzais, mirza bashir ahmad and mufti muhammad sadiq concocted a lie and changed the date of birth of the mirza to 1835. Imagine a 22 year old indian man with no facial hair. Ask his sons how old they were when they got facial hair,they were probably 14 or 15. I was 13 when I got facial hair. Men from the punjab are usually very hairy creatures.
100 years have elapsed since MGAQ died, your clan is still not in gobal domaination.
Is there anything else that needs clarification?
Where can I watch these videos?
Is masroor out of his mind??
Great
I would love to watch the videos
asalamalakum rationalist.
1) we follow hadith, that does not contradict the Holy Quran. The hadith you quote, it doesnt say 125, its 120 years…
2) what a gross lie without ANY proof
3) In the Quran it also states Cows (ithink) will Nazul down as will iron….. did they phsycially decend down from the sky?
Did prophet Muhammad(saw)s prestine Islam reach global domination within 100yrs? infact did it ever reach global domination?
Is there anything else that needs clarification?
Ahmed
What load of crap…
You are a blind follower of Mirza who falis to see the LIES and fraud of Mirza… Mirza claimed 125 and 120 years for Jesus on two different occeasions… why don’t you read more about Mirza?
Mirza consistently LIES on Quran and Hadith, here is the example:
Ref. RK21 Braheen Ahmadiya Vol. 5 Page Page 286
http://alislam.org/urdu/rk/rk-21-79.pdf
Translation: “so It happened at the time of Hazrat Abu bakar and Masih Moud; i.e. during the time of Hz Abu Bakar after the death of Muhammad pbuh hundreds of ignorant Arabs became MURTADD ( denounced Islam) and there were only two mosques where prayers were held. Hz Abu Bakar brought them back to Islam. Similarly, during the time of MASIH MOUD, several hunderds of thousands of people denounced Islam and accepted Christianity. BOTH OF THESE INCIDENTS ARE WRITTEN IN QURAN, i.e. MENTIONED AS PROPHECY.”
CAN ANY QADIANI SHOW US THE VERSE OF QURAN THAT MIRZA REFERRING TO.
RK3- Azala aoham page 490 Footnote; pdf 390-537
Translation:
“Thus saying of All knowing All wise (Allah Tala) in Quran that in 1857 my book will be lifted up in the heavens which means that Muslims will not abide by it.”
Another LIE by Mira on Quran… CAN QADIANIS SHOW US WHERE ALLAH TALA SAYS THAT QURAN WILL BE LIFTED IN 1857…
This was written by Mirza only to please British Sartkar and against Jihad…
On Nazul al Hadeed, its a fact that today scientist have proven that Iron was descended from outer space, iron was not part of earth… WHY DON’T YOU LEARN SOMETHING BEFORE RAISING OBJECTIONS ON QURAN JUST TO DEFEND YOUR LIAR…
Ahmad: you forget that I am smarter than you. I have studied ahmadiyyat harder than anyone you may have ever met. I set you up to see if you would bite. YOU BIT.
Let me explain:
MGAQ wrote that Jesus died at 125, but all the books that he referenced to wrote 120. MGAQ errored in this regard.
Here is the proof:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch2.html
Reliable reports in the Hadith show that the Holy Prophet said that Jesus was 125 years of age. Besides, all the sects of Islam believe that Jesus had two unique things about him — things which are not to be found in any other prophet, namely: (1) he lived to a full old age, i.e., to 125 years; (2) he travelled in many parts of the world and was therefore called the ‘travelling prophet’. It is evident that if he had been raised to the skies when he was only 33 years old the report of ’125 years’ could not have been true, nor could he have travelled so much while he was only thirty-three. Not only are these reports found in the reliable Books of Hadith. They have been so well-known among all the Muslim sects that it is difficult to think of anything which has been more widely known among them.
I checked kanzulummal, it is written therin that Jesus lived until 120 based on some stupid logic.
ANYHOW, YOU DONT WANT TO DEBATE WITH ME, I KNOW TO MUCH!!!
Once again, ahmadis “pick and choose” what hadith to use. That way you make Islam anything that you like it to be.
quote:
Did prophet Muhammad(saw)s prestine Islam reach global domination within 100yrs? infact did it ever reach global domination?
Unquote
I missed your KUFR REACHING GLOBAL lololo You need to come out of this qadiani box and see…. You cannot show 1 million follower in any country of the world… Having a settelite TV does not mean that you have conqured the world.. how stupid you qadianis are !!!! Ypu are lapdods of British, you don’t even have control over your holy cities LOLOLO and you claim that you are somehow growing… from 200 million to 1os of millions… right? Mirza Tahir LIED or 10s of millians left your cult? THINK ABOUT IT..
Shahid Kamal and Akbar Chaudhry, both are PUSSY CATS.
They do NOT have Courage to invite Dr. Zahid Aziz (grandson of Maulana Abdul Haq Vidiyarthi, from whose book ‘Muhammad in World Scripture’ mullah’s darling Dr. Zakir Naik plagiarizes in his famous speeches) author and scholar of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM), based in London, UK.
COWARDS LIKE SHAHID KAMAL AND AKBAR CHAUDHRY WILL DARE NOT INVITE DR. ZAHID AZIZ. These cowards know if they invite Dr. Zahid Aziz, the world will come to know ALL MULLAH PROPAGANDA against Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (HMGA) sahib is based on LIES forged by Qadianis and Mullah-Mafia of Pakistan.
Cowards Shahid Kamal and Akbar Chaudhry find it easy to knock out Qadianis. But these cowards will get brutally beaten by TRUE picture of HMGA as presented by LAM.
Mark my words Cowards Shahid Kamal and Akbar Chaudhry will NOT invite Dr. Zahid Aziz. I give challenge to Shahid Kamal and Akbar Chaudhry to invite Dr. Zahid Aziz.
Coward Shahid Kamal cannot dare to talk to Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement member.
I remember few years ago, HE USE TO TAKE HELP BY MAKING NEW RULES ON forum of ahmedi org owned by ATHEIST, (Dharia in Urdu) AHMAD KARIM SHAIKH who now kisses for benefits, behinds of Khatam-e-Nabuwat Mullah. This atheist while talking to me USED ABUSIVE WORDS AND PROFANITIES (Ghalian) IN URDU/ PUNJABI TO RASUL ALLAH SAWS AND HOLY QURAN. He was inviting me to become atheist like him. I challenge him to say he NEVER held atheist beliefs and he NEVER cursed Rasul Allah SAWS and Holy Quran. He should say this UNDER OATH THAT IF HE LIES HIS ONLY SON (married to Catholic lady) DIES AND IS DESTROYED.!!!!!
asalamalakum rationalist
Firstly I come with no arrogance, I do not claim to do superior to you, I do not claim to know to know more than you. I only come to rectify falsehood.
With regards to the age being 125 years old…I wil do my own research in to this…but from what I have gathered so far…this could have been a mistake on Mirza Shaib(as) or a printing error…I do not know…thus I will do my own research on this inshallah.
But let me remind you even our Holy Prophet (Saw) made the error of praying in the wrong direction, until Allah told him where to pray….
What you should comphrend is that all messengers are human…they are prone to mistake and even misjudgement…If the hadith clearly says 120…and Mirza Shaib (as) has wrote 125…you should think that this could be a mistake on his behalf or a mistake on the indivdual translating the book.
Furthermore I note you didnt refute any of my arguments…
Please show me where within 100 years of Holy Prophets (Saw) advent Islam had global domination …..
And please tell why Quran uses the same word Nazul to the hadith, but both imply very different meanings according to your logic..
Wasalam
asalamalakum Pleezing One
I have no issue with you…I am trying to make out if you have made a point in your little outburst. Please refrain from any abuse its only looking bad on brother shahid who claims us ahmadis are sarcastic abusive people…
Wasalam
ahmad, both 120 and 125 years age of hazrat isa as comes in different hadiths.
ahmeq
You continue attacking Muhammed pbuh and expect me to listen to your deceptive crap.
Where did you get the idea that Muhammed pbuh was on error when praying towards Bait Al Maqdas? It can only come from a Qadiani mind …
WHY DON’T YOU ASK YOUR MURABBIS TO SHOW YOU THOSE VERSES THAT MIRZA LIED ABOUT… If you consider yourselves Muslims, is it not your right to verify what Mirza claims is in Quran? why you want to follow a LIAR? This is not abuse, this is a FACT.. MIRZA LIED ON QURAN.. OR PROVE ME WRONG.. period !!
Dear Brother Ahmed,
It is very unfortunate that some Ahmedi Mullah is trying to misguide you by saying Holy Prophet made an error when he was praying towards al-Quds. It is a real pity, but I would request you to read the first verse of second para which talks about such people سَيَقُولُ السُّفَهَاء . Allah further says:
وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ الَّتِي كُنتَ عَلَيْهَا إِلاَّ لِنَعْلَمَ مَن يَتَّبِعُ الرَّسُولَ مِمَّن يَنقَلِبُ عَلَى عَقِبَيْهِ
The ayah shows that the first Qibla was instructed by Allah Himself and then it was changed to see who follows the prophet and foolishly says, Prophet Muhammad sws made an error.
We beg you with sincerity, please leave this cult, which teaches you to attack the Holy Prophet.
Dear Brother Ahmed,
It is very unfortunate that some Ahmedi Mullah is trying to misguide you by saying Holy Prophet made an error when he was praying towards al-Quds. It is a real pity, but I would request you to read the first verse of second para which talks about such people سَيَقُولُ السُّفَهَاء . Allah further says:
وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ الَّتِي كُنتَ عَلَيْهَا إِلاَّ لِنَعْلَمَ مَن يَتَّبِعُ الرَّسُولَ مِمَّن يَنقَلِبُ عَلَى عَقِبَيْهِ
The ayah shows that the first Qibla was instructed by Allah Himself and then it was changed to see who follows the prophet and who foolishly says, Prophet Muhammad sws made an error.
We beg you with sincerity, please leave this cult, which teaches you to attack the Holy Prophet.
I will answer for the sake of argument.
Please show me where within 100 years of Holy Prophets (Saw) advent Islam had global domination …..
OK, IT DIDNT HAPPEN. ISLAM DIDNT EVEN MAKE IT TO THE AMERICAS. WHAT DOES THIS PROVE? i AM NOT SURE!
I KNOW THAT AHMADIS ATTACK ISLAM WHEN LOOKING FOR A PARALELL IN TERMS OF THEIR OWN SHORTCOMINGS.
WHEN JESUS WAS TO RETURN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE VICTOROUS AND HEW WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BURIED IN MEDINA.
And please tell why Quran uses the same word Nazul to the hadith, but both imply very different meanings according to your logic..
SHOW ME WHERE IN THE KORAN THE WORD NUZUL IS WRITTEN. I KNOW THAT THE ALL THE MUJADIDS BELIEVED THAT JESUS WOULD RETURN PHYSICALLY, U DO BELIEVE IN THE MUJADIDS DONT YOU?
I THINKI ANSWERED YOUR QUESTIONS. WILL YOU ANSWER MINE?
WHY DID THE MIRZA DIE EARLY? DID HIS AGE PROPHECY FAIL?
R U UP FOR THE CHALLENGE?
Asalamalakum rationalist
Thank you for answering my questions that I requested from you.
Your answer as regards to my first question was…’OK, IT DIDNT HAPPEN. ISLAM DIDNT EVEN MAKE IT TO THE AMERICAS. WHAT DOES THIS PROVE? i AM NOT SURE! ‘
This is my exact point, you quoted first… which elicited a response from me that ’100 years have elapsed since MGAQ died, your clan is still not in gobal domaination. ‘
I am merely showing you if Prophet Muhammad (saw) could not achieve global domination within 100 yrs, its silly to think the Promised Messiah (as) will do it within 100 years or less…
With regards to the second point….you havent answered my question but infact your answer is another question to me…
Nonetheless I will answer that answer/question also…
the word nazala, which means ‘to descend’, needs to be clarified. In Arabic, this expression is used to signify high importance, usefulness or glory. The Holy Quran uses it in relation to the creation of clothing, iron and cattle
( 7:26, 57:25 and 39:6). Each of which is described as having ‘descended’ and each has, without doubt, played a critical role in the progress of human civilization.
The same word is used in relation to the Holy Prophet (saw) himself! ( 65:11-12)
Whenever this word has been used it has never meant physical descent!
Furthermore you state …..’WHEN JESUS WAS TO RETURN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE VICTOROUS AND HEW WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BURIED IN MEDINA.’
If you mean victorous with regards to world domination…Islam covering the whole world…then you put many verses of the Quran in to jepordy….such as those with ‘there is no complusion in religion’….there will be non believers until the day of judgement etc….
You see…you seem to be taking everything literally…almost to literally….kindly tell me in your next repsonse do you also take the diajals donkey literally? the role of the messiah in going around braking crosses and slaughtering pigs literally? and the death of the Imam Madhi and his resting place being in the grave of the Holy Prophet (Saw) literally?
WHY DID THE MIRZA DIE EARLY? DID HIS AGE PROPHECY FAIL?
early? if the age of about 75 is early? then what is late? His prophecy did not fail my friend
Wasalam
Asalamalakum newobserver
What ever I say, I cannot hold the jamaat to…these are my views and if I make errors then its my errors nothing to do with this so called ‘cult’. With regards to what I said..its something I did read quite a while ago…I’ll look in to it and ifs its wrong then Im sorry in advance, its not the jaamat that has taught me…its soley my research..
Nonetheless I can give you another example of where Prophets are Humans….I have read somewhere…I will give you the hadith reference if I can find it, but some farmer asked the Holy Prophet(Saw) where to put his crops on his land and when to put them out. the Holy Prophet (Saw) advised him on one day and apprantly tht indivdual had disastrous effects….the Holy Prophet has told him he was not a farmer and he could be held accountable…..
Again jaamat has not told me this, I have read this somewhere….
Besides this is defeating the purpose of my point…My point is all messengers of allah are humans, and are prone to mistakes at times….Prophet Muhammad(saw) even states he is human with no superpowers.
You and others have claimed Jammat ahmadiyya teaches to attack the Prophet(saw)…these are mere allegations with no spine…
I invite you to accept the Islam of Muhammad (saw) and his Imam Al-Mahdi (as).
We beg you with sincerity, please leave this cult, which teaches you to attack the Holy Prophet.
Dear Brother Ahmad,
Please get into your research but I know Mirza Tahir taught this attack on Holy Prophet.
I would also request you go through the website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/hazratissa to see how Mirza Sb attacked a mighty prophet of God.
Ahmad, I am actually impressed by your demeanor. I will answer your questions as best as I can.
1. It is written in hadith that the messiah would not die until the jews and christians were to be exterminated.
SUNAN ABU DAUD
Book 37, Number 4310:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
“The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.”
This is the most compelling and revealing description that I have found. There are many hadith which are simliar to this one. I especially like this one because it hits every point perfectly.
Again, Muhammad wasnt suppose to get rid of all the kafirs. The messiah and the mahdi were coming to finish the job. I didnt create this idea, the muslims did, Islam did, i.e. Allah did.
2. You are claiming that the word NUZUL only has one meaning. But, in terms of khatam, your scholars claim that this word has 2 or 3 different terminologies associated to it. There are many other instances where ahmadis claim that arabis words have different meanings.
2.a. All the mujadids that you believe in, they considered the nuzul of Jesus as physical. Allah didnt guide them in this respect.
3. Interpreting religion is some times literal and sometimes spiritual. Ahmadis pick and choose. Lately on the “spiritual phenomenon” aspect of religion, all religions are moving away from miracles.
3.a. The ahmadis can explain away the complexities of Islam by attaching the idea that this concept was meant in terms of spiritual means.
3.b. For example, MGAQ had to figure out a way to explain the hadith where the messiah was to be robed in two yellow garments. Since he couldnt figure out how to do this, he decided to explain it in terms of his medical issues.
3.c. so this is an example of how ahmadis have twisted hadith to fit their needs. I have many more.
4. The age of the mirza. I have written about this exhaustingly. Mirza claimed that he was born in 1839 or 1840. He claimed that he would live up until 80. He died 14 years early. He died unexpectantly in Lahore. His father in-law wrote that the mirza died of cholera. Mufti muhammad sadiq and mirzxa basheer ahmad changed his date of birth to 1835, this made the mirza 5 years older than his real age.
4.a. Mirza claimed that in 1857(the muslim revolution) he had not yet grown facial hair. If he was born in 1840 then this is possible. But if he was born in 1835 then this is laughable. Have you even seen a punjabi man at the age of 22 who didnt have facial hair?
4..b You see, ahmadis have lied about many things, thats why I left.
MY SECOND RESPONSE TO YOU
1. Your jamaat has told you not to argue with people on the internet. Thats why you wrote what you wrote.
2. The HP did not error in his major belief system theories. MGAQ errored in terms of his prophethood. This is why the ahmadis use this logic. Their is always a reason behind all ahmadi arguments.
2.a. I have read almost every argument that the ahmadis have ever presented. You can test me if you wish.
3. My problem is this: anytime MGAQ does something wrong or errors, the ahmadis go and look for a similiar mistake in the history of Islam, and thus draw a parallel.
Asalamalakum newobserver and rationalist
I have no issue with any of you….You can go on with all these allegations that have no base behind them. I asked you newsobersver to show me where we abuse the holy propet of islam but again your rreply is tedious in tht you assume Mirza Tahir (ra) made an attack? what kind of evidence is that?
Rationlist i refuted your points, and I gave you some questions I wanted you to answer, but your reply like the last 3 replies is full of arrogance and hate…..its gd ur no longer an ahmadi, we have no place for arrogance and hate in Mirza shaibs(as) jaamat.
Shahid your right when every one will watch this programme they will c there was already a pre planned agenda against the ahmadi guest….akbar clearly has a problem with the jammat, not its teachings but a personal vendetta against it for some reason and thats were he has been brainwashed……
more over akbar claims we are not a progressive sect?…oops i meant ‘cult’….thts an amazing statement when the first and only pakistani muslim who was a nobel prize winner….the only muslim pakistani UN judge….mirza bashir (ra) convincing Jinnah to go bk to India to create pakistan…..were all AHMADIS…….
Nonetheless I have no desire or the time to continue this debate…..may Allah guide you all especially shahid to the right path…
wasalam…ahmad
What a crying shame that people can be so brain washed. It is indeed a very valid observation that when MGA’s lies and mistakes are attacked the Ahmadi’s resort to attacking the Prophet PBUH. How bizarre that these so called Muslims would insult the best man ever to have walked the earth to defend their heretical beliefs.
I must say Shahid you have some stamina when it comes to this blue chip multi million pound corporation, I gave up on these people a long time ago.
Whoever Allah guides no one can misguide and whoever Allah guides no one can misguide.
I knew of an instance once where a man who had devoted his entire life to this heretical sect was not able to be buried in the so called ‘heavenly graveyard’ because he had missed a single payment of some compulsory tax that these people have incorporated as an obligation into whatever religion they follow.
I vividly remember that the family of this unfortunate, recently deceased man ran around like headless chickens trying to make up this payment to try and have their father/husband buried whilst the administrators of the cult sat around like pimps waiting for the obligatory payment to be made.
Islam? I think not.
An exclusive members club? Very certainly so.
Religion? Not on your nelly.
The only consolation was that majority of the family of this poor man have since left this heretical, deviant and cursed cult.
Why don’t non-ahmadi muslims try to argue from the basis rather than from the top. i.e. if you can prove that isa (as) is still alive in heaven then the argument will end here. There would be no point conitinuing and every other argument would would stop here, only if you prove this to be right. It will also save time. Every other argument will be resolved.
We all know that this is not possible, Isa(as) has passed away, there is evidence from quran, historical evidence and scientific evendence carried but people like archeologists etc. If you don’t want to believe ahmadis, at least beleive the non ahmadi muslim, christian, hindu, buddhist researchers on this very topic.
This theory of Isa(as) as buried in India is advancing at a fast rate so much so there are BBC documentries about and I heard that there is even a film about it!
There is even a dedicated website unrelated to ahmadi links:
http://www.tombofjesus.com/2007/home.html
documnetries such as:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cy8M4VzU-Y
Dear Brother,
You are right, I have not given you evidence for Mirza Tahir attack on Holy Prophet. As you are still doing some research on the subject so I am just waiting for your research results:
QUOTE – its something I did read quite a while ago…I’ll look in to it and ifs its wrong then Im sorry in advance, its not the jaamat that has taught me…its soley my research.- UNQUOTE
However, I have given you a detailed reference proving Mirza Sb attached Hazrat Issa as. You simply ignored to answer that and instead have decide to run away:
QUOTE- I would also request you go through the website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/hazratissa to see how Mirza Sb attacked a mighty prophet of God. -UNQUOTE
I’m following this thread with interest. Alhamdulillah, not a day goes by when I don’t thank my Creator for guiding me out of the cult of Ahmadiyya into the beautiful deen of Islam.
There is nothing in Ahmadiyya worth basing your belief on. I once asked, “what is the value add of Ahmadiyya?” – in searching for the answer to this, one realises that Ahmadiyya brought nothing but confusion to ordinary people and riches for the leadership.
Dear newobserver,
here is your answer,
http://www.alislam.org/books/truth/gospels.html
Ahmad is just like all ahmadis. I was there too, I never thought MGA was false, I never thought that he did anything wrong. When I was about 25 and I completed an MBA in college, then I started researching. I got lucky and never married an ahmadi.
This guy just doenst get it. Anytime ahmadis have to explain an error of MGA they look for a similiar error of another prophet, thus drawing a parallel. Muslims are very upset about this method. Do you get it NOW?
You didnt answer my questions. I am about 200 books ahead of you. Which means that you must read 200 books about Islam and ahmadiyyat before you catch up to me. Send your best murrabi my way, I will turn him around quite easily.
FYI: have you read about the sexual escapades of Mahmud? Trust me this guy partied like a rockstar.
FOR PEACE.
It doesnt matter if Jesus died or not. This is inconsequential. MGA found a contradiction in the Koran in terms of the death of Jesus. THATS GRRRRRREAT!!!
It doesnt change the fact that his return was to be physical. In the miracle world that Islam evolved from these concepts were believable. Nowadays we look at them in terms of nonsense.
FYI: muslims also believe that the prophet Idris physically went to heaven.
If jesus died, which he probably did. He wasnt buried in India. Thats a load of crap. MGA first wrote that Jesus was buried in galilee then syria. MGAq was looking for a tomb. He finally found one in 1896.
Ever heard of Nick Notovitch. MGA never mentioned this guys name.
MGA=Notovitch/sir syed
He stole their ideas and presented them as his own. He should have stole Einsteins ideas as well. What a charlatan!!
@Shahid October 31, 2009 at 2:06 pm
“I’m following this thread with interest.”
WHAT IS STOPPING YOU FROM INVITING DR. ZAHID AZIZ OF LAHORE AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT??? HE LIVES IN UK AND EASY FOR HIM TO COME TO YOUR PACK OF LIES PROGRAM.
I KNOW YOU WILL NOT INVITE HIM.
I am sure you still remember lessons learned few years ago when you got involved with me on ahmedi org forum. You were taking help of moderators, who were CHANGING RULES OF FORUM EVERYDAY TO SAVE YOUR SKIN.
I DARE YOU INVITE DR. ZAHID AZIZ.
YOU COWERED and LIAR. YOU ARE A DISHONEST PERSON.
To Peace,
Please tell me what the evidence from the Quran is that Eesa (AS) has passed away.
How lightly you make statements that go against the words of Allah and the Prophet PBUH.
Am I really expected to believe the interpretation of some Indian/Pakistani who doesn’t even understand the language of Allah over the great Tafsir’s of the Quran such as the one by Ibn Kathir.
How can you have such a simple mind that you would follow somebody who has no idea of the Arabic language to interpret our creator’s words?
To tell us that the BBC have reported something and we should believe in it or that something has been posted on YouTube and that should make it a basis of our religious beliefs is foolishness of the highest order.
Do you also believe that we came from apes ?
Let me ask you this and please answer simply yes or no. Do you believe in the Prophet Muhammad PBUH and do you believe in his authentic narrations in the Saheeh Hadith books?
Or do you negate all of that and believe in a man who did not even speak the language of God?
Rashid October 29, 2009 at 3:24 am
Shahid:
If you think you are a honest person, then i CHALLENGE YOU TO INVITE DR. ZAHID AZIZ webmaster of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, UK website:
Brother Shahid;
Take this man on, invite Dr. Zahid Aziz, I am willing to come and face him, just me and him and an open debate on Mirza. Any major topic from Mirza’s writings is fine by me. Dr. Zahid Aziz is a confirmed coward he wouldn’t be able to face the facts. His courage is evident from the lame excuse he adopted to accept the “Butler Challenge”.
These Qadianis are out of their mind to think people like Dr. Zahid Aziz can last few minutes in an open debate.
100 years of wasted books and articles, and these losers can not answer simple questions, why did Mirza mentioned verses from Surah Jumah for his claims? Qadiani fought amongst them; he was a prophet, he was not nonsense for over 100 years. But no one ask the obvious question.
Also please let me know the timing of the program when it is live on television; I will try to call you on the show.
Dear Brother Peace,
I think you did not read the reference I referred. It talks about Hazrat Issa alaihisalam. All the excerpts categorically use these words – there are not referring to an imaginary Jesus.
Please read again, because the answer you mentioned has nothing to talk about the excerpts on the site:
http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/hazratissa
Dear brother newobserver,
I have read the refrences. What i understand is that you have not at all understood what the following reply was saying:
http://www.alislam.org/books/truth/gospels.html
the question is why would promised messiah(as) emphasise that he is referring to the imaginary jesus as in the gospel when he is rebelling the christian attacks on Muhammad(saw). Most surely if he did then his attacks would otherwise would seem weak, if he mentions ‘im talking about imaginary one’ and thus showing great respect for the true one. Most surely such a repel would be weak. Yet it is important that he mentioned that he was talking about the imaginary jesus in other writings(not alongside the imaginary jesus ones) so that muslims like you don’t misunderstand the whole purpose of this tactic.
He indeed did it for the great love of the prophet of Islam(saw). When reading the refrence:
http://www.alislam.org/books/truth/gospels.html
it really makes me think that the greatest lover of the holy prophet was none, except promised messiah (as)
I would advise to re-read.
Rashid
It seems you are suffering from delusions. You keep repeating your challenge that Zahid Aziz should be given the opportunity by brothers to represent Qadianis on the TV. You keep using words like “cowards” for brothers Shahid and Akbar.
Let me show you the real worth of Dr. Zahid Aziz. You think he is intelligent or knowledgeable? Do you know I actually went to his blog and posted short cut to my article? At that time I only had one article on my weblog, now I have few may be he would be able to pick any of the topics and start defending Mirza. This article was on the topic of Miza’s claim of Prophet Hood. Lahoris for 100 years fought with the Qadianis on this point. Let me produce what your brave heart wrote;
“1. Was Hazrat Mizra sahib a Muslim according to Islam?
2. Did he do any service to Islam or none whatsoever?
3. Are members of the AAIIL Muslims according to Islam?
4. Has AAIIL done any service to Islam or none?”
Surprisingly he wanted to discuss if Mirza is Muslim or not and Lahoris are Muslims or not, he wanted to talk about Iqbal but he was unwilling to refute my article that Mirza did not claim Prophet Hood.
I have device a “butler test” for Qadianis so they can be brave enough to substantiate lies of Mirza claiming himself as “Ahmed”, when in reality he was Ghulam-e-Ahmed. This is what your “brave heart” Zahid Aziz wrote;
“ Therefore I am prepared to make the following legally-binding statement to satisfy his Butler Test:
“I, Zahid Aziz, declare that if a servant of the Queen (be it butler, driver, a police officer or customs official) gives me a lawful instruction in the name of the Queen then I will follow that instruction as if the servant is the Queen”.
Now let him issue his High Court writ!”
Here are selected paragraphs from my response, he deleted and never displayed on his blog;
“You are making me laugh now. I asked you a specific question about identity and not about servitude. Butler test is not about servants it is about a Servant Butler or Driver of King/Queen calling himself/herself as King/Queen.
Servitude is completely different from calling oneself as king/Queen.
Any officer of the crown presenting something with Royal approval or being Servant of the Crown is just doing his/her duty. He/Her does not present themselves as King/Queen but only as a representative of the Crown.
No, Servant of King or Queen can call himself/herself as King/Queen, period. He can only call himself/herself as a servant or representative of King/Queen.”
Your brave heart is a confirmed coward. I suggest you should stop using this word for brothers. Aziz has been found wanting on his own patch where he had full control of what could be displayed. Just imagine what I would do to him if he is sitting face to face in a studio.
If you know Aziz; please pass my challenge to him, I have a thread open on Ahmedi.org for months, but Mr. Malik mouthpiece of AIIL does not have the courage to respond or pass on this message to Zahid.
I can face him at any independent place where he can not delete or stop my posts. Now go and search for you brave heart and bring him here or any other independent place on the internet, or if he so wish a face to face debate in London.
Dear Brother Peace,
I am surprised that your love of Holy Prophet lies in abusing Hazrat Issa. Moreover, you did not read my previous quote:
QUOTE- It talks about Hazrat Issa alaihisalam. All the excerpts categorically use these words – there are not referring to an imaginary Jesus.- UNQUOTE
Instead of reading what I am writing you are again referring to some imaginary Jesus. For your convenience, I am reproducing the first of the excerpts for clarity:
QUOTE-But it is proven from Quran and Bible that Jews rejected Hazrat Issa alaihis-salam. In reform of humanity Hazrat Issa aliah-i-salam had the poorest performance (lowest number) of all the prophets. (Braheen Ahmadiyya Vol.5 38, RK 48) -UNQUOTE
Please open your eyes and read it. Mirza Sb says it is proven from Quran that Hazrat Issa as was inferior most of all the prophets (nauzubillah). Where is the imaginary Jesus?
I think a key to finding the truth is to be willing to accept you are wrong when confronted with evidence.
My Question to All in this discussion whether Ahamdi, non Ahmadi, Muslim, Non Muslim.
Do you want the truth? or do you want to be right? i.e. Do you seek the true Path or do you want that the path you follow currently be correct? Do you understand the difference?
Sorry for posting this in the wrong thread!
newobserver,
If you think that greatness of prophets is proportional to the number of followers then you are mistaken!
Then Jesus(as) now is greater than Muhammad(saw) according to your understanding since these days there are more followers of Jesus(as).
What matters is the quality of the followers and the rigteousness and piety of the Prophet! Since the Quran claims along the lines that the only thing that God cares about is peity!
That quote that you stated is only used to repel against the christian attacks on the Holy Prophet(saw).
If he did imply that Jesus(as) was inferioir then why would he say this:
“Claiming as I do, that I am the Promised Messiah and that I bear a resemblance to Hazrat Isa, peace be on him, every one would understand that were I to revile him, I would not claim any resemblance to him, for by reviling him, I would confess that I myself was vicious.” (Announcement of 27 December 1898)
Moreover he has explicitly stated his love for Jesus(as):
1. There is no doubt that Hazrat Masih, peace be on him, was a true Prophet. (Arbain, No.2)
2. I call Allah, the Glorious, to witness that in the revelation vouchsafed to me He has dearly informed me that Hazrat Masih, peace be on him, was without a doubt, a human being, like other human beings; that he was a true Prophet of God and was His Messenger and His Elect. (Hujjatul Islam, p. 9)
3. It is my belief that the Messiah was a true Prophet and Messenger and was beloved of God but was not God. (Hujjatu1 Islam, p. 3)
4. Hazrat Isa, peace be on him, was, no doubt, a beloved Prophet of God and possessed the highest qualities. He was virtuous and a chosen one and had communion with God but was not God. (Announcement of 22 March 1877)
5. I have been commissioned by God Almighty to profess that Hazrat Isa, peace be on him, was a true and pure and righteous Prophet of God and to believe in his prophethood. (Ayyamus Solh, first title page)
6. The Messiah was an accepted one of God and was beloved of Him. Those who utter calumnies against him are wicked. (Ijaz Abmad, p.15)
7. I state on oath that I bear that true love towards the Messiah which you do not possess and that you have not available to you the light with which I recognize him. There is no doubt that he was a dear and chosen Prophet of God. (Dawate Haq, attached to Haqeeqatul Wahi)
MOST SURELY YOUR CONCLUSION IS ILLINFORMED AND WITHOUT ANY POWERFUL ARGUMENTS.
as for jesus’s death:
Evidence on Quran:
alislam.org/library/links/Jesus_death/1_Quran.html
more evidence in quran:
alislam.org/library/links/Jesus_death/2_Quran.html
evidence from hadith:
alislam.org/library/links/Jesus_death/3_Hadith.htmlI
Peace,
There is absolutely no point of posting from the writings of Mirza. He was in the habit of writing for the both side of the coin, so appropriate side can be used when he is attacked. Fact of the matter is he has written heretical material against ISA As of the Holy Quran. His lame excuses that he has written against the imaginary Jesus of the Bible are hogwash. As are the quote you are quoting from his different writings. These quotes prove that he was a double dealing “Munafiq” nothing else.
I have an article on my weblog;
http://crankthatskunk.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/heresies-of-mirza-ii-attacks-on-isa-as/
Try to refute the evidence produced in this article from the writings of Mirza. Prove it to us Muslims that Mirza didn’t write against ISA AS of the Holy Quran.
You producing contrary and contradicting quotes do not absolve Mirza from his heresies. If anything it confirms that he was a two faced liar.
Dear Brother Peace,
I again put my questions – please answer:
1. Do you believe that as per Quran, Hazrat Issa alaihissalam was inferior most of all the prophets?
2. When you say the words Maseeh alaihissalam, it means Hazrat Issa or some imaginary Jesus?
1. No, because as i’ve explained before, numberwise you cannot judge who is inferioir or not according to Quran.
2.When you say Maseeh(as) it means Jesus obviously, but when you put words in different contexts the word can imply something else. Simple. You make me tired by making me repeat things in different ways.
as for crank,
i see no refrences in the quotes, so how do you expect me to be sure that you are telling the truth.
and here his further evidence:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/refutation/refutation-of-insult.pdf
Shahid, please make sure you invite some human to discuss with Zahid Aziz not animal like Skunk that stinks and his intellectual level is so basic that he only knows how to fart
I know it’s not always easy ladies and gentlemen, but can we please keep the discourse civilised? Jazakallah khayr.
Good news – I’ve finally managed to digitise the programme and it will be made available exclusively on this site first, after which it will be uploaded in sections on YouTube. Then the next programme with br. Akber and Mr. Anwar Mirza will get the same treatment insha’Allah.
^ I look forward to it brother Shahid.
Ex Atheist, very insightful comments which everyone should ponder over…
Thanks Tahir,
I think this is the essential question to ponder before initiating any search or any argument for that matter.
I was hoping this would register in some of the participants of this debate.
If you are trying to win the debate you will not likely find the truth. Your objective has to be the search otherwise you will blind yourself.
best regards
Peace
When Mirza Ghulam attacked ISA(AS) at one place he said that ISA(AS) stole the teaching and write it down as his own
but we know that christians dont believe that bible was written by ISA(AS) so it cant be a attack on Jesus of Gospel only got it.
Dear Brother Peace,
I am sorry but your are denying the person you believe to be a prophet:
QUOTE-1. No, because as i’ve explained before, numberwise you cannot judge who is inferioir or not according to Quran.-UNQOUTE
On the other hand, Mirza Sb says:
قرآن شریف اور انجیل سے ثابت ہے کہ یہودیوں نے حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام کو رد کر دیا تھا اور اصلاح مخلوق میں تمام نبیوں سے ان کا گرا ہوا نمبر تھا۔
So you want to say what Mirza Sb said was incorrect?
For the 2nd question you have answered something else. Question is does it mean “Hazrat Issa” or “Imaginary Jesus”. Please inform one of the two.