My dear brothers and sisters in Islam, it is my pleasure to inform you that alhamdulillah, it is coming up to four years since Allah (SWT) granted me hidaayah and saved me from Qadianism. Not a day has passed when I have not been grateful for the gift of Islam. My deen is something that I never take for granted.
On the 26th of November, 2004, I embraced Islam after a period of intense study. Two weeks later, I made my announcement publicly at the Khatmenabuwwat Academy in London, after speaking with Maulana Sohail Bawa about my decision. Why did I choose this avenue for my announcement? That’s quite simple to answer. Can you think of any other channel that would have got my message out worldwide more efficiently?
The reasons I made a public announcement were two-fold. First, it would give courage to other Qadianis who were scared of the consequences of leaving the cult they were born into, through no fault of their own. Second, it would send a message to the leadership of the Ahmadiyya that I was not afraid and that their usual smear tactics against the outspoken in their ranks would not work on me. (It was interesting to see how many Qadianis subsequently asserted that I had been “kicked out of the jama’at”, despite my very public, and very unexpected departure)
After leaving, at first, I had considered keeping myself to myself and being content with my own decision. Then I realised that since I had been given the gift of Islam, it was now incumbent upon me to spread the message and to invite my former co-religionists to the right path, away from the misguidance and kufr of Qadianism. I thus started writing.
Only three months after becoming Muslim, I wrote “Life After the Cult”, which was a public letter to any Qadiani who was considering jumping off the sinking ship of their false religion and swimming to the shore of Islam. It gained a widespread audience. Around the same time, I began contributing heavily to the ahmedi.org forum and soon became a moderator. After around three thousand posts under various names, I left the forum and started making a series of videos on YouTube. My channel, shahidkamal, gained a steadily growing audience and came to the attention of the top levels of the Ahmadiyya who did their best to try and stop my work, but by the grace of Allah (SWT), their attempts failed.
Most recently, I have started, with some fellow Muslims, a new web site called TheCult.info, where there is an active blog and forum and also a wiki. We are using as many modern tools as possible to spread the message of Islam and to show the ugly truth of Ahmadiyyat, so that everyone, Muslims and Qadianis, can see the difference for themselves.
I have been shocked, if not entirely surprised, by the horrendous abuse and vitriolic hatred directed towards me by Qadianis. I only pray that those who still reason, will see for themselves what is right and what is wrong, that they will reflect and that insha’Allah, they will revert to the only deen acceptable to Allah (SWT) – and that is Islam.
Work continues on new articles, videos and book projects and insha’Allah, I want to make it my life’s work to attract as many Qadianis to Islam as possible, remembering always, that it is Allah (SWT) alone who grants hidaayah. May He give it to all Qadianis, insha’Allah.
Please remember me in your du`a.
Wassalaam,
Your brother in Islam,
Shahid Kamal Ahmad
References:
congratulation! shahid kamal, after four years you are now confirmed
PARASITE!! to me you are no different from the others, who alwyas dreaming to obliterate Ahmadiyya the true Islam, using Ahmadiyya as a scapegoat as if you are championing the true cause of Islam, infact, you are doing it for your self interest to seek publicity and
popularity, let me congratulate you because now you are popularly
known as PARASITE muslim who ride on Ahmadiyya ticket to be recognised as the so called true muslim, has it not occured to you
that what are you compare to the late General Zia Ulhaq?
Sulaiman, did you open up his heart and see his intentions, or are you assuming the worst because you are an Ahmadi, and he is supporting Islam?
May Allah guide you away from Ahmadiyya and Islam.
I noticed that Ahmadis often reference people like Zia al-Haq, or other random figures from the Subcontinent. Their entire world is their locality and *Pakistan*.
Farhan, please do not assume that we Ahmadi are not muslim, let me ask you the same question, did you or do they open up the Ahmadis
heart to see our intentions, whenever we recite Muhammad Rasulullah,affriming our faith in the Kalimah Shahadat they said that what we meant actually or refer to is Hazrat Ahmad instead of
Muhammad, so you don’t assume, I don’t presume.
As for Shahid Kamal, his actions speaks louder than his words, using Ahmadiyya and victimising the Ahmadis for his personal interest, as if he is the real defender of Islam, infact, he is useless person
supported by other efforts, who live on other sweat and toil, so, let me repeat my word that he is confirmed PARASITE.
Syed, you made an excellent point and allow me to present my opinion.
Take the example of Hindus: clear-cut shirk and kufr. There is no degree of dispute.
Take the average Muslim: upon the Sunnah of the Prophet SAAWS. No dispute there either.
Now, take the average Ahmadi. Clearly misguided, upon the beliefs of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. The beliefs of Ahmadiyya are clear Kufr. But, does that make the average Ahmadi a Kaafir? I don’t necessarily say so. I make a distinction between the religion of Ahmadiyya and the average Ahmadi.
Some Ahmadis just don’t know any better. Some are only nominally Ahmadi. Some even disagree, but because of family pressure stay within the community. I’ve spoken to dozens of Ahmadis who doubt their religion in favor of Islam.
So, I never say “You, Fulaan, are an Ahmadi and therefore a kaafir”. But I will say “your religion is Kufr, but I do not know what is in your heart.”
Shahid Kamal has called Ahmadis “good people” and does not condemn the average Ahmadi, only the problems of the Nizami Jama’at. His family is Ahmadi. His friends are too. Stop crying victim.
But again, no specific argument, just ad hominem insults…the Jihad of the Pen at its finest
Farhan, I believe that the practice (sunnah) of the Holy Prophet SAAWS is to ensure that his followers obeys with His SAAWS instruction.
As stated in the Qura’an “WA SA’AMI NA WA ATA’NA”(We hear and we obey), now, the coming of the promised Imam
Mahdi/Imam Of The Age was fortold by His SAAWS himself, the instruction to take pledge of allegiance (Bi’at) with the Promised
Imam was also given by The Holy Prophet SAAWS himself, therefore, the average muslim are expected to act upon this sunnah of the Prophet SAAWS, as it was practice before, that whenever an instruction was given, the answer was, ‘We hear and we obey” now,
those who refused to obey. are they not clearly misguided? is the religion of those who abide with the sunnah is kufr?
A) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is not al-Maseeh or al-Mahdi. Therefore, I will not give that kaafir a pledge just as I will not give the other false Mahdi’s my pledge.
B) If you believe we are disobeying the Prophet SAAWS, why doesn’t the Nizami Jama’at call us kufaar like we call Ahmadis Kufaar? What is this “Ghair Ahmadi” nonsense? That’s a politically-correct way of saying disbeliever.
C) This is unrelated to the topic. You personally insulted my brother Shahid Kamal. Read the last ayah of Surah Fat’H. Even if you believe we are “ghair ahmadi” muslims, your language is anything but Islamic.
Farhan, the key word is always FALSE the opposite is TRUE, if there is false Imam Mahdi, there is bound to be the true Imam Mahdi, the problem is, whether we are sincere enough to identified the signs
as an indcator of his advent as fortold by our beloved Holy Prophet
Muhammad SAAWS, otherwise, we will only be able to see falsehood all
the way through our live, at the end of the day we become PREJUDICE
towards the issue.
Let us analyze this logic, Guru Rajnesh claimed to be the reincarnation of God and we say he was false in his claim; however, as per you logic if there is a false reincarnated God there is bound to be the True Reincarnated God.
Please comment if your logic was correct or false and don’t get to other topics.
syed sulaiman adnan,
Fantastical interpretations of the Signs foretold by Rasool Allahi salla Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam is one of the major problems of the Ahmadis.
I understand that some signs are metaphors. No one denies that. But, Ahmadis make ALL of the Prophet’s SAAWS words metaphors. The problem is, you can metaphorically interpret an expression to mean anything.
Al-Mahdi is supposed to seek refuge from Madina to Makkah, specifically in the Ka’aba, be attacked by an army from the outside, be from the tribe of Qahtaan (I think?), his name is Muhammad ibn Abdullah, etc, etc, etc. Most importantly, he does not declare himself to be Al-Mahdi.
I am sure the Ahmadis have metaphorical interpretations of these statements. But, I could makeup metaphorical interpretations that make ME Al-Mahdi. Am I Al-Mahdi? They must admit, SOME of these are literal statements.
He did not fulfill the signs of Al-Mahdi, some of them not even metaphorically. Therefore, he is not Al-Mahdi, Al-Maseeh, and most importantly, a prophet.
Oh, and he takes Bay’aa at the Ka’ba between the Rukun and the Maqam, but MGA never made Hajj.
I bet they interpret the Ka’ba to be like…Qadian or something so ridiculous like that, that you’re not sure what’s more amazing: the metaphor itself or that the Ahmadis actually believe it.
Hallo! newobserver, First and formost let me tell you that I don’t believe in the concept of reincarnation, I totally reject and don’t
subscribe to that kind of teaching, therefore, the logic is I shouldn’t be accountable for explanation and not to engaged in this
subject, how about yourself, are you totally muslim? or half muslim?
if you are totally muslim then you shouhd have rejected this concept
of reincarnation as it has it root from Hinduism, otherwise, you can chose to be a half muslim and enjoy yourself to subscribes to that
kind of teaching, God bless you.
As for Farhan, I believe you are being infectious by the kind of
disease that we call PREJUDICE, once we are having this disease
we will never be able to be fair to ourselve, not to say to others,
we will never be able to see the truth as we are being emotional.
Once we get emotional, we tend to be argumentative without bothering
of what we utter, whether it is a FACT or NONSENSICAL, please be
truthful to ourselve if we wish to see the truth in live.
Once we hear in the form of instruction from Holy Prophet SAAWS, that’s address to us present day ummah to accept Imam Mahdi/Imam Of
The Age, we shouhld behave ourselve like those ummah during His SAAWS
time and said ‘We hear and we obey’ instead of argue for the sake of argument and behave ourselve like those jews during the time of Moses, in The Qura’an cahpter 2; verses 68 to 72. Moses said “Allah commands you to slaughter a cow” did the jews replied “we hear and we obey?” NO!! they argued for the sake of argument, they asked Moses
what type of cow,whether old or young,whether full grown or not, when Moses clarified with them and said “now do what you are commanded” they kept argue of colour the cow should be. The true Ummah of Muhammad Rasulullah SAAWS will not imitate such unbecoming
behaviour.
My comment is regarding your argument:
“if there is false Imam Mahdi, there is bound to be the true Imam Mahdi”
You based your argument on the facts of opposites that if there is a false Imam Mahdi there must be a true one. By the same logic if there is a false re-incarnated God there is bound to be a true one.
Please answer in the light of argument you presented yourself instead of stories about half Muslims and full Muslims
syed sulaiman adnan
I am emotional? I am insulting? Lets see what you said:
Oct 30, 2008
“…let me congratulate you because now you are popularly
known as PARASITE muslim…”
Nov 2, 2008
“…infact, he is useless person supported by other efforts, who live on other sweat and toil, so, let me repeat my word that he is confirmed PARASITE.”
Here is what I said:
Nov 3, 2008
“So, I never say “You, Fulaan, are an Ahmadi and therefore a kaafir”. But I will say “your religion is Kufr, but I do not know what is in your heart.””
Perhaps you should take your own advice about being emotional and not endlessly hurl insults. Follow the Sunnah of Rasool Allahi SAAWS, not Mirza Tahir Ahmad.
You said we should hear and obey. I agree 110%. The problem is, I only obey those who were sent by Allah. I believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a false prophet, and did not fulfill the signs of Imam al-Mahdi. I posted them above, but you did not respond to them.
You are using rhetoric over rhyme or reason.
May Allah guide the Ahmadis to Islam
newobserver, yes! if there is false there is bound to be true, if there is darkness there is light, if there is sweet there is sour and so forth am merely believe in the fact, I don’t take the concept
of reincarnation as a FACT, so again, am not entitled to comment, I do take the concept of IMAM in Islam as a Fact, by the way, are you a hindu or muslim? why are you so concern about re-incarnated?
Farhan, my sincere apology, am merely stating the fact, if I see a woman should I said she is a man? likewise, if I see somebody is a
parasite should I said not? perhaps you have to excuse me for being
too outspoken, am I being emotional?
Yes! I agree 110%, we are entitled to believe and not to believe, just like if I said that honey is sweet but if someone chose not
to believe because he is sick and his taste instrument (namely tounge) is melfunction, am I to be blamed?
Any way thanks for your prayer, it really does touch my heart when you used the word Ahmadis instead of Qadianis, really appreciate that.
Nice backhanded apology
You’re a true follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
You are not giving an argument, only rhetoric. May Allah guide the Ahmadis to Islam
wa salaamz
Dear Sulaiman,
Your answer is quite weak. If you decide that you take the concept of Imam Mahdi is a fact then you don’t to give the following argument:
“the key word is always FALSE the opposite is TRUE, if there is false Imam Mahdi, there is bound to be the true Imam Mahdi”
You already believe in some Imam Mahdi so even if not a single False comes in the True will definitely come. But you have given this as a proof that if a False Imam Mahdi is there then there must be a True one too. The quote above and the new one below don’t synchronize:
“I don’t take the concept
of reincarnation as a FACT, so again, am not entitled to comment, I do take the concept of IMAM in Islam as a Fact”
Regarding re-incarnation, actually I learned this concept from Ahmadis who believe that Mirza Sb was a re-incarnation of Hindu god Krishan.
newsobserver, that is because Ahmadi beliefs are not standardized.
If you read Mirza’s writings, they are so convoluted and metaphorical that someone can interpret them however he wants. I’ve read something and then come back 3-4 months later and read it again and gotten a totally different idea from it
Farhan, am not being rhetoric, I just dont’t go with the style to argue for the sake of argument.
newobserver, just because our tounge is boneless doesn’t mean that we can feel free to say what we wish, you are so obsess with the subject youself, now you are making false accusation against Hazrat Ahmad, what kind of creature are you? do you believe that you are
God reincarnated yourself? I tried to make you understand in simple language that am not a hindu, therefore, am not interested in the subject, instead, you behave yourself as if you are the true hindu.
You had better re-do your home work throughly before uttering something to reflect of what you are.
syed sulaiman adnan, I agree that we should not argue for the sake of argument. But, you cannot throw ad hominems at our Muslim brothers and expect us not to get defensive. Its brotherhood.
Have you ever heard of Musaylimah or al-Aswad al-Anasi?
Dear Sulaiman,
It looks like you are not completely aware of teaching of Mirza Sb. Have you ever heard that Mirza Sb has claimed a link with Krishan? What was that link? Or you don’t know anything about it?
syed sulaiman adnan said on 8th November 2008
syed sulaiman adnan said on 2nd November 2008
I commend you for following the sunnah of your prophet Mirza Ghulam ad-dajjal al-kazzab, like you, a munafiq, who regularly engaged in abuse whenever his shoddy cult was exposed calmly and kindly by the respected `ulama of his time.
Shahidkamal, why get agitated to be branded of what your are, if you are not? just let it be, as time pass by it will be proven whether you are right or wrong.
God bless you.
Dear Sulaiman,
Please also comment about Lord Krishna.
@adnan:
Are you claiming to be a prophet? Are you now doing munafiq-style taweel in the munafiq style of your disgraced and humiliated fake prophet Mirza? Are you trying to twist things now by saying that you were predicting what kind of person I would become? This is mendacity.
Are you claiming now that it wasn’t you who called me a parasite? It was you who called me a parasite, wasn’t it? And it was you who later, forgetting what a rude and hateful person you had been, called those who made false accusations “what kind of creature”? So in your own words, what kind of creature are you?
Does it cut you so deeply that alhamdulillah, I not only rejoined Islam after being an unwitting kaafir in an unworthy cult, but that I helped spread the message to many other Qadianis who also alhamdulillah have seen the light from the darkness and have left Qadianism to become Muslims? Why don’t you join us in Islam instead of crying and wailing, issuing obscenities from your miserable pit of kufr? You would be welcome as our brother in Islam. Why keep being miserable and hurling insults?
You know, history has shown me what kind of person Mirza was. And his hated, despised, laughable personality traits have been inherited by his keenest defenders. Are you proud of following the sunnah of Mirza Ghulam Victoria ad-dajjal? Shouldn’t you follow the Sunnah of Rasulullah (SAAWS)? He was a much better example. Please be more like him.
newobserver, sorry I dare not to comment on the subject which am not well verse, namely, here reincarnation.
Farhan, I don’t dispute the need to be defensive, at the same time
be sure to do it wuth open minded, otherwise, the danger of being fanatic is always there, once we become fanatic the nature of defensive will change to be offsensive, the result will be disastrous,now we are ready to adopt whatever means as a last resort, such as to oppress and supress, to commit atrocity at all level and to instigate others to do the same as well, this is what
happening in Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh and certain part in India, once we believe that we can impose our will on others by using force, there goes the end the purpose of having religion, such behaviour really fit the description in the Qura’an of those people
who beleive in using force, look at how they treated the earlier
prophets, Abraham,Noah,Lot,Shaleh,Shuaib etc, what did they tell
those prophets? “IF YOU DON’T STOP THEN WE WILL SURELY STONED YOU”
the elements of imposing and using force is there.
The story line of our beloved Holy Prophet Muhammad Rasulullah SAAWS, goes without saying, He SAAWS suffered the most by those people who beleive in using force to impose the will on others.
In conclusion, to be defensive doesn’t mean we should be CLOSED MINDED. God bless you.
Dear Sulaiman,
You have changed your position by saying: “I dare not to comment on the subject which am not well verse, namely, here reincarnation”
You have already made so many comments on the page regarding the subject – why did you do so?
And now why do you refrain because you realized that I did not make a false accusation as commented by you: “just because our tounge is boneless doesn’t mean that we can feel free to say what we wish, you are so obsess with the subject youself, now you are making false accusation against Hazrat Ahmad, what kind of creature are you?”
Have you realized it was not a false accusation and Mirza Sb did claim to be a reincarnation of Lord Krishna? Is that the reason you want to flee close this topic now?
Hallo newobserver! what position are you talking about? as far as am concern there are two different subjects here, am talking about The Promised Imam Mahdi/Imam Of the Age, not the subject of reincarnation
of god, you are the one talking about the subject, as I said you are
so OBSESS with it, to me I don’t give dam important to it!! so don’t waste your time tried to trap me into it.
You know what? you really make me realized that you could be hindu yourself, otherwise, why would address him as “Lord”? to indicate you hold him in high esteem. isn’t that so?
We Ahmadi muslim,never,never,never, believe in Krishna as God himself, he could just be one of the ordinary saints, so the point
is, if he is not God, there is no question of somebody else be re-incarnated in him as God!!!.
I hope you get it clear. anyway, if you are still obsess with the subject and so peristed with your false accusation about Hazrat Ahmad’s claim (NA’UZUBILLAH MINZALIK) being re-incarnated of hindu god, you are always at your own liberty to go to hindu priest to clarify, I beleive they know better about their own god and the so
called reincarnation concept as the matter is within their territory
and jurisdiction.
In conslusion, let me repeat that “just because our tounge is boneless doesn’t mean we can feel free to say what we wish” otherwise, people will be wondering of what creature we are or as what they use to say “WHAT THE DEVIL ON EARTH”.
God bless you brother.
“am talking about The Promised Imam Mahdi/Imam Of the Age, not the subject of reincarnation of god”
Please read carefully, this is the same subject because Mirza Sb claimed to be reincarnation of Krishna.
“you really make me realized that you could be hindu yourself, otherwise, why would address him as “Lord”? to indicate you hold him in high esteem. isn’t that so?”
The high esteem for Krishna is maintained by Mirza Sb and he calls him Raja Krishan which is translated as Lord Krishna in English.
“so peristed with your false accusation about Hazrat Ahmad’s claim (NA’UZUBILLAH MINZALIK) being re-incarnated of hindu god, you are always at your own liberty to go to hindu priest to clarify”
Dear Brother, no Hindu priest claims that Mirza Sb was a reincarnation of Lord Krishna, it was Mirza Sb who claimed so, why should we go to a Hindu priest then?
you are not just talking but putting as well! you are putting your words into others mouth, were you not the one or was it Hazrat Ahmad
who told me about someone whom you address as Guru Rajnesh in your previous post,you said, “Guru Rajnesh claimed to be the reincarnation
of God but we say he was false in his claim” though you said he was false in his claim, yet you still address him as Guru! that make me wonder further what the devil you are on earth.
are you sure you are talking about The Promised Imam Mahdi/Imam Of the Age? or is this not another case of tounge twister? didn’t you said in your previous post, “if there is a false reincarnated God there is bound to be The True Reincarnated God” do you still want to dispute that it is the subject of Reincarnated God you are concern about? please be true to yourself, do not project yourself to the eye
of the world that you are someone who just like to talk for the sake of talking.
Anyway, if you are so persisted with your stupidity, you have to prove your case, prove to me that according to the teaching of Ahmadiyyat the true Islam, the person whom you address as Lord, namely Krishna, is god.
I have been telling you repeatedly that we Ahmadi muslim never beleive in such a thing, yet, you are so stubborn, now prove your case, according to the teaching of Ahmadiyyat Krishna is god, I give you my words that if you are able to prove your case, I would immediately FORSAKE AHMADIYYAT.
If there is no such teaching in Ahmadiyyat, how could it be that
its holy founder Hazrat Ahmad claimed to be the reincarnated of Krishna whom the hindu beleive as God (NA’AUZUBILLAH).
In conclusion, let me remind you to stop with your dirty tactic by putting your words into oihers mouth.
God bless you brother.
Dear Sulaiman,
I would request you to carefully read all the posts above and you will find your answer just an expression of rage and there are many mistakes, let me point a few:
“who told me about someone whom you address as Guru Rajnesh in your previous post,you said, “Guru Rajnesh claimed to be the reincarnation
of God but we say he was false in his claim” ”
The above quote was in reference to your universal principle that if there is any false person there must be a true one, too and it was not a topic of re-incarnation. Then you called my Hindu and I explained that I have learnt about concept of re-incarnation from Ahmadis (I did not say I learnt from you because you have not read enough Ahmadi Literature). Then the topic changed from universal priniciple of falsehood to Ahmadi Beliefs that Mirza Sb is a reincarnation of Lord Krishna.
“though you said he was false in his claim, yet you still address him as Guru!”
This is a part of his name and Guru does not mean God, it means teacher or senior. Just like I believe Mirza Sb is false but I still use the word Sahib for him. This is general politeness of Muslims and they don’t call others bastards on every other issue.
“prove to me that according to the teaching of Ahmadiyyat the true Islam, the person whom you address as Lord, namely Krishna, is god.”
Please note again that it is Mirza Sb who calls him Raja Krishan which is translated as Lord Krishna, not me. I am just repeating Ahmadi Beliefs. Secondly, I never said above that Ahmadis believe Krishna to be a god. If I did not say so, why should I prove it.
“If there is no such teaching in Ahmadiyyat, how could it be that
its holy founder Hazrat Ahmad claimed to be the reincarnated of Krishna whom the hindu beleive as God (NA’AUZUBILLAH).”
That is interesting that you are so unaware of Ahmadi teachings. Now if you find out from original Ahmadi Literature that Mirza Sb did make a claim to be a re-incarnation of Lord Krishna, then what will happen? I think you will say it was a metaphor and in the metaphor every one can be re-incarnation of anyone. What do you think?
Please read the book called Lecture Sialkot, page 33 (228 of RK) and read the first paragraph. It says:
In the end let this be clear that my coming in this age is not just for reforming the Muslims, rather Muslims and Hindus and Christians, reform of all three nations is desired. And just as God has sent me as Promised Messiah for Muslims and Christians, similarly I am like an Autar for Hindus and for the last 20 years I have been advertising this that I have (come) to rid the world of those sins with which it is full. Just as I am Messiah ibne Maryam, similarly I am in the form of Raja Krishna, who was one of the big Autars of Hindus.
Dear newobserver, you keep on repeating that you have learnt the concept of re-incarnation from Ahmadis, this is what am disputing, I’ve not found the single books,leterature or articles expounding on this concept in the Ahmadiyyat that requre the Ahmadis to believe, that’s why I asked you to prove your case.
“Similarly I am in the form of Raja Krishna” so you think rhis sentence shouhn’t be taken in the mataphorrical context, in other words, you insist that it shoud be taken in it leterally meaning,
what you are trying to prove is Hazrat Ahmad really believe that he
is the reincarnated of hindu god(NA’UZUBILLAH).
This is just to indicate of how shallow your religious knowledge is,
therefore. I beleive you should not be blame.
Don’t you know that in the Qura’an even Allah sometime said something in the metaphorical sense? in one incident when our beloved Holy Prophet Muhammad SAAWS, was fighting His SAAWS opponet,
in Surah Al-Anfal:-verse 17. Allah said, “WA MA RAMAITA IZ RAIMATA
WA LAKIN NALLAH HA RAMA” meaning, “AND THOU THREWEST NOT, WHEN THOU DIDST THROW, BUT IT WAS ALLAH WHO THREW” but at that very moment,
those who present, were seeing it was The Holy Prophet SAAWS himself did the throwing, now, if we were to take this ayat in it leterally sense, we tend to believe that the Holy Prophet SAAWS has really take the form of Allah (NA’AUZUBILLAH MIN ZALIK) may Allah have mercy on us to protect us from such misunderstanding.
This is what we call religious jargon, those saints and pious persons, sometime said something in their own terminology, if I am not wrong, Wali’Allah by the name Abdul Qadir Jalaini used to say “Allah is in my robe” now, what happen if were to take that in it literally context.
Those pious and holy men said something in their own capacity, for simple illustration, those doctors,professors,engineers etc, will say somthing within their own capacity using certain terminology, that an ordinay people cannot undrstand, doctors will use medcial terms while scientist will use scientific terms.
So brother, if you have no case to prove against Ahmadiyyat, I like to call it off.
God bless you.
Mirza Sb has written in clear Urdu, I am an AVTAR of Krishna. What does that mean?
It means re-incarnation and that is it?
How can you put a metaphor into it.
If you think it does not mean re-incarnation the please enlighten us. Let us put it simple as below:
Was Mirza Sb an Avtar of Krishna – yes or no?
If Mirza Sb was an Avtar of Krishna – what does that mean?
Also keep your own quote in mind while replying:
“If there is no such teaching in Ahmadiyyat, how could it be that
its holy founder Hazrat Ahmad claimed to be the reincarnated of Krishna whom the hindu beleive as God (NA’AUZUBILLAH).”
Dear newbrowser, please prove your case if you really have, you are not replying to me at all.
a) you said that you learnt the concept of re-incarnation from Ahmadis, I asked you to produce the materials, be it in the book form, articles, journal or whatever that expounding on this concept
in the Ahmadiyyat that require the Ahmadis to believe in, I take this matter seriously because you are slandering, you are an outright liar!.
b) you insist that everything must be understood in it literally context, you even dare to against the words of Allah that I produce
from Surah Al-Anfal verse 17, if that’s how you go about it, then again you have a case to prove, prove how you understand the said verse in it literally context. In this verse it is clear that Allah
said something in it metaphorical sense, in other words, even Allah
understood something in it metaphorically context, then who do you think you are to insists that everything must be understood in it literally context?
c) I told you those pious and holy men said something in their capacity using religious jargon, even Allah did that, if you can avail yourself with a book by Professor Abdullah Muhammad Zin published by Islamic University College Of Malaysia title “ABD AL-QADIR AL-JILANI(His method Of Islamic Da’wah). please turn to page 138, you will find a paragraph that goes as follows:-
“God says in one of His revelations to the Holy prophet(called hadith Qudsi) ‘My faithful servants constantly seeks My nearness through optional prayers till I make him my friend and when I make him my friend, I become his ear with which he hears, and his eyes with which he sees and his hand which he holds (things)an his legs with which he walks” In another place. “He hears through Me,sees through me, holds through Me and understands through Me”
Now,if I were to go with your style that everything must be taken and understood in it literally context or sense, it goes without saying that you beleive Allah really posses ear,eyes,hands and legs.
So brother, your words against my words, if you were to take everyhting Hazrat Ahmad said in it literally sense, I said you are not sensible enough.
I wish to thank you for highlighting my mistake, grammatically flaws,
that’s to show how sensible person I am, by right the paragraph should goes as such, “There is no such teaching in Ahmadiyyat, therefore, there is no question of its holy founder to be reincarnated of Krishna in it literally context.
I believe you have no case whatsoevr against Ahmadiyyat, so, we should let the matter rest.
God bless you.
QUOTE – you said that you learnt the concept of re-incarnation from Ahmadis, I asked you to produce the materials, be it in the book form, articles, journal or whatever that expounding on this concept
in the Ahmadiyyat that require the Ahmadis to believe in, I take this matter seriously because you are slandering, you are an outright liar!.- UNQUOTE
I have already given you writing of Mirza Sb which says the same – however, you are trying to ignore that.
For the sake of argument, let us say it can make some metaphoric sense – that Mirza Sb was re-incarnation of Lord Krishna. Now please answer the questions:
Was Mirza Sb an Avtar of Krishna – yes or no?
If Mirza Sb was an Avtar of Krishna – what does that mean?
Also keep your own quote in mind while replying:
“If there is no such teaching in Ahmadiyyat, how could it be that
its holy founder Hazrat Ahmad claimed to be the reincarnated of Krishna whom the hindu beleive as God (NA’AUZUBILLAH).”
The emphasis is not on your grammar – emphasis is on your complete quote that you gave, please don’t try to run away from what you said already.
Dear newobserver, likewise, you are also ignoring the fact that I produce from the Qura’an and hadith, as I said you dare to go against the words of Allah the highest authority, beside that you are now changing your statement, earlier you insist that Hazrat Ahmad claimed must be taken in it literally sense, now you are turning around saying “let say it can make some metaphoric sense” at the end of the day you are not making sense. in conclusion you are bloody nonsense.
I have already expected that you would certainly tried to capitalize on my grammatical flaw, that’s normally the nature of an opportunist,however, that would not change the fact that you have no case to prove against Ahmadiyyat with regard to this matter.
I do not wish to pursue further with this futile polemic, my words of advise, please ponder over the Quranic verse and hadith I have produce, your nonsensical will not benefit me in anyway.
God bless you brother.
If you want to run away from discussion, I cannot force you to continue. I have experienced it with many Ahmadis – they start like this is nowhere in our beliefs – this is just a blame game by mullahs. However, when we produce actually writings of Mirza Sb they just run away.
My question is very simple and there should be no problem in answering. If you don’t want to take it in literal sense, then please answer in metaphoric sense.
Was Mirza Sb an Avtar of Krishna – yes or no?
If Mirza Sb was an Avtar of Krishna – what does that mean?
Please give your metaphoric answer or whatever answer you have. But please answer, don’t run away.
In it metaphoric sense no problem! Hazrat Ahmad is called Avtar of Krishna simply because he is performing the same task of former Krishna that is to refrom.
In it actual sense no! because Hazrat Ahmad was not the result of the former Krishna recycle,reborn or reincarnated as they always beleive.
That is good news so every Ahmadi is an Avtar of Krishna because every Ahmadi is trying to reform (as per Ahmadi understanding). We may call you Krishan at times and I hope you will not mind because it will be a salutation.
It is good you accepted at the end that you believe in the concept of Avtar or re-incarnation, however, for all these concepts you use metaphor to satisfy yourselves. Why did you put such hue and cry in the begining when you accused me of telling a lie. I said Ahmadis believe in reincarnation and now you also admit that Ahmadis believe in reincarnation – though you added a point of metaphor in it.
Based on your metaphor, please also explain – was Mirza Sb called Maseeh by Ahmadis in some metaphoric sense or he is actually the Maseeh which was supposed to come?
To be frank with you, I found you sickening, do you know why? you are not only an outright liar, you are also FOOL NEVER LEARNT!! beside that you an outright arrogant that’s why you dare to reject the words of Allah, that’s why I have no heart to engage you further
in discussion, but for the sake of readers I have to refute your lies otherwise it may gain credence.
I told you to ponder over the Quranic verse and hadith I produce, because the answer to your question with regard to the metaphoric sense are answered by the highest authority on this earth, but you
being a fool never learnt deliberately chose to ignore, that’s due to your arrogant nature that’s not different from the Iblis as stated in the Quraan.
You said, “every Ahmadi is trying to reform” my answer is, that’s is the nature of good persons, such as those pious and holy men, every messenger of God duty is to reform, including our beloved Master
The Holy Prophet Muhammad SAAWS, now I challenge you to prove it is not so, otherwise, I dare to say you are good for nothing, except just to utter nonsense due to your tounge is boneless.
Now, go to your mullah and get the answer to my challenge, that no messenger of God is asked to reform.
You are a man of shallow religious knowledege, due to your stupidity you dive into the deep ocean!
I have enough with your nonsense, don’t you ever come back to me as long as you never learnt to speak fact.
Well once again, a Qadiani when asked to defend his creed goes off the scale with recycled abuse and frightening inversions whilst the Muslims remain calm and dignified. This is the kind of thing that helped me to leave Qadianism to rejoin Islam! SubhanAllah!
Dear Sulaiman,
“I told you to ponder over the Quranic verse and hadith I produce, because the answer to your question with regard to the metaphoric sense are answered by the highest authority on this earth”
I tried to ponder on the Quranic verse and hadith you produced, however, I could not get answer to my question. For the benefit of all, could you please answer it in simple words based on your religious wisdom. Let me repeat the question again:
Based on your metaphor, please also explain – was Mirza Sb called Maseeh by Ahmadis in some metaphoric sense or he is actually the Maseeh which was supposed to come?
Frankly, I could not understand your long comment below:
“You said, “every Ahmadi is trying to reform” my answer is, that’s is the nature of good persons, such as those pious and holy men, every messenger of God duty is to reform, including our beloved Master
The Holy Prophet Muhammad SAAWS, now I challenge you to prove it is not so, otherwise, I dare to say you are good for nothing, except just to utter nonsense due to your tounge is boneless.”
I don’t have a problem with your efforts to reform – every person should try to search for truth and reform others – like I am trying to present the truth to you. My comment was simple, as you said Mirza Sb was a reformer so he was an Avtar of Krishan as per Ahmadi Beliefs. That means that we can also call you an Avtar of Krishan because every Ahmadis is trying to reform. However, you put up a strange question which has nothing to do with my comment. Dear Krishan, please explain.
Dear newobserver, twist and turn again twist and turn, wriggle and wriggle is that all the skill you have? I have provided you the answer to your question from the highest authority with regard to the metaphoric sense, you insisted that whatever Hazrat Ahmad said must be taken in it literally sense, I refuted by producing the above Quranic verse and hadith to prove that even Allah speaks in metaphorical context, why can’t Hazrat Ahmad said something in the same context? having failed to refute what I have proven you relent and said in your post November 13, I quote ‘For the sake of argument,
let us say it can make metaphoric sense” unqoute, in replied, I said
no problem, in metaphoric sense Hazrat Ahmad is called Avtar Krishna
simply because he performs the same task of former Krishna that’s to reform, not in the sense that you beleive and tried to make others to believe as well that Hazrat Ahmad is the product of former Krishna being reborn or reicarnated, this I have strongly refuted by saying there is no such teaching in Ahmadiyyat that required it followers to believe and asked you to prove your case should you have any evidence to which you have failed, then you turn around insisted that Ahmadi really beleive in reincarnation, when I said
in metaphoric sense that Hazrat Ahmad is called Avtar Krishna simply because he performs the task of former Krishna that’s to reform, in your November 14 post, again you put your words into the Ahmadis mouth by saying, QUOTE;- Ahmadi believe in reincarnation though you added a point of metaphor in it; UNQUOTE. do you see it now that how wicked your scheme is!! eventhough, you understand that the word metaphor meant to indicate something is not real, yet out of your wickedness you insisted it is REAL!! in this case reincarnation.
Once you told me not to run away, now you tried to run away by evading my challenge, you are actually hinting at us when you said
“every Ahmadi is trying to reform” and now you said “I don’t have a problem with your efforts to reform” how decent and sincere it sounds, indeed, very pleasent to hear! if that is the case why do you have problem to accept Hazrat Ahmad claimed as a reformer The Imam Mahdi/Imam Of The Age? here is another challenge.
Don’t be a coward, a true muslim is not a coward! accept my challenge, again, let me tell you we Ahmadi muslim believe that
all the prophets of God, including The Holy prophet Muhammad SAAWS
duty are to reform, not to deform! so it goes Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Imam Mahdi/Imam Of the age.
Dear Sulaiman,
Let me comment on your very long comment.
“I have provided you the answer to your question from the highest authority with regard to the metaphoric sense, ”
I beg your pardon and repeat my question again. If you have replied to it, please copy paste once again. My question was:
“Based on your metaphor, please also explain – was Mirza Sb called Maseeh by Ahmadis in some metaphoric sense or he is actually the Maseeh which was supposed to come?” Please reply and oblige.
Then you have made a long comment about re-incarnation which is quite complex. Let me explain in simple words what I have explained in previous post:
1. Avtar means re-incarnate
2. You have admitted that Mirza Sb was a metaphoric Avtar of Krishna, so it means you believe in metaphoric reincarnation
Now what exactly is the issue, please advise once again.
QUOTE-you tried to run away by evading my challenge-UNQUOTE Which challenge: to prove that Prophets did not come to reform. Why should I prove, what did I say which means that prophets did not come to reform. Please give your challenges based on what I have said.
Then another challenge is what, I could not understand. You have said the following:
“Don’t be a coward, a true muslim is not a coward! accept my challenge, again, let me tell you we Ahmadi muslim believe that
all the prophets of God, including The Holy prophet Muhammad SAAWS
duty are to reform, not to deform! so it goes Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Imam Mahdi/Imam Of the age.”
I could not find another challenge in this paragraph. Please clarify.
Dear newobserver, as far as I am concern Hazrat Ahmad is not the reincarnation of Krishna in whatever sense, he is called Krishna only due to the same task he performs.
I do not wish to be dragged with another polemic with another subject
to answer you question with regard to Maseeh, there are many books,you can always avail yourself with from Ahmadiyya library.
I am tired withth lengthy polemic and wish to let the matter rest.
God bless you brother, till we meet again some other time.
articles,
Metaphoric sense in the contex of duty field(to reform)
Not metaphoric sense in the contex of reincarnation.
Again if you want to run away from discussion, I cannot force you to answer as I told earlier I have experience many times with your community.
QUOTE-as far as I am concern Hazrat Ahmad is not the reincarnation of Krishna in whatever sense-UNQUOTE
This is against the writings of Mirza Sb. He has categorically made a claim that he is an AVTAR of KRISHNA but as far as you are concerned you don’t agree with Mirza Sb. Right?
Believing in Maseeh is your basic belief, you should have got enough knowledge to answer a very simple question. I have read the books of Ahmadiyya and it is very difficult to figure out your actual belief. That is why I requested a practicing and faithful Ahmadi to answer some simple questions so that every one could learn clearly about your religion.
The question I asked is actually connected to the debate of re-incarnation, because Mirza Sb says on the same page of Lecture Sialkot:
“just as God has sent me as Promised Messiah for Muslims and Christians, similarly I am like an Autar for Hindus”
Note the words “just as”. So if Mirza Sb was Krishna in a metaphoric sense than his claim for being Messiah is also metaphoric and real Maseeh has yet to come. However, if he was actually an Avtar of Krishna then he made a claim for actually being Promised Messiah.
I understand your knowledge about Ahmadi Beliefs is not that of an expert, that is why you denied in the very beginning and are still denying that Mirza Sb was an avtar (re-incarnate) of Krishna. However, I would request you to check these details with a cool mind. Let me also say that please don’t deny the truth if it did not originally belonged to you. Please make a decision you will follow the truth and you will preach the truth. I have made that decision and if I get convinced that Mirza Sb was a prophet of God I will definitely become an Ahmadi – but I want to evaluate his claims without any bias. The kind of language you use generally make it difficult to leave bias behind.
Similarly, I will request you to evaluate claims of Mirza Sb impartially and don’t use arguments like, “there are many books,you can always avail yourself with from Ahmadiyya library”. If you are a believer in him, you should have knowledge about him to answer simple questions – that will open the way for people to accept your belief. However, if you keep on using harsh language and running away from topics people will definitely call you a cult.
newobserver, Hazrat Ahmad is not the reincarnated of Krishna in whatever sense, there is no such teaching in Islam, therefore, it is imposssible for Hazrat Ahmad to do something against the teaching of Islam, if you think there is such teaching in Islam then please prove it in the light of Quranic teaching.
As far as I am concern, I have dealt with the matter clearly and stand firm with my understanding as follows;=
a)Metaphoric sense in the contex of duty field (to reform)
b)Not, metaphoric sense in the contex of reincarnation.
I believe if you were to read sincerely all the books,articles etc,
with regard to Isa Al-Maseeh in the light of Qura’anic teaching, you would certainly find the truth in the Ahmadiyya view points against the others.
I do not find the neccessity to engage with another polemic with you, lest, I might be taken by others as “A FOOL NEVER LEARNT” as well.
ME RUNNING AWAY? NO WAY!!, SINCE YOU LOVE TO SWAY!!! I HAVE TO GIVE YOU WAY, AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT? AM SICK OF YOU ANYWAY!!!.
That’s final, I wouldn’t be entertaining you further, as I said, lest, I might taken by others as “A FOOL NEVER LEARNT” as well.
Matter closed.