From today’s Pakistan Daily:
More Qadiyanis serve in the Israeli Armed Forces than Pakistan according to a book, ‘Israel: A Profile’, by a respected Jewish Professor I.T Naomi. He stated: ‘… and the Ahmadi sect of some 600 people from Pakistan can also serve in the (Israeli) army…’ To many analysts Qadiaynis are a political issue and have always been a security problem? In India Qadiyanis have collected and donated thousands to the Indian Army fund after Kargil.
On 15th February 1987, Pakistani Foreign Minister, Sahibzada Yakub Khan declared in the National Assembly that there were 328 Qadiyani officers of different ranks in the Pakistan Armed Forces. According to his report 1, Lt. General, 5 Brigadiers in the army and 1 similar rank in the Air Force = 6, Colonial 10 Army, 2 Navy, 3 Air Force= 15, Lt. Colonials 56 Army, 6 Navy, 11 Air Force = 73, Major 135 Army, 5 Navy, 16 Air Force = 156, Captain 58 Army, 5 Navy, 14 Air Force = 77, Total 328.
600 Qadiyanis serve in the Israeli Armed Forces according to a book, ‘Israel: A Profile’, by Professor I.T Naomi, and 238 in Pakistan armed forces.
“Give peace to the Ahmadis if you want peace in Karachi”, a senior Qadiyani leader said to me
Now the question is after 20 years where are these officers? How far up have they gone? What is their current status in the armed forces and intelligence agencies? “Qadiyanis were created for political reasons and also to confuse the Muslims especially on the matter of ‘Jihad”, said a senior analyst.
‘Give peace to the Ahmadis if you want peace in Karachi’, in 1995 a very senior Qadiyani leader said to me while sitting in one of his fully licensed restaurant at Wilmslow Road, Manchester. It was the time when Benazir Bhutto’s government was doing ‘operation clean up’ in Karachi under interior minister Naseerullah Babar.
I had an invitation to attend a conference on Human Rights at the United Nations in this context a close friend took me to see Mr. Altaf Hussain at his London offices in August 1995. They showed us some videos about the bad treatment to their workers in Karachi. In the context of ‘Jinnahpur conspiracy’ allegations, I suggested Mr Altaf Husain, ‘don’t say anything which you cannot take back like Mujeeb-ur- Rehman’s six points’. As liver damage caused by drinking alcohol and smoking of hashish are irreversible.
Tariq Aziz reportedly Qadiyani relative of Rehman Malik and former president Musharaf’s National Security Advisor has been hired for the ‘track two diplomacy with India’. His rank and salary would be equivalent to a federal minister. No wonder MQM and PPP are reportedly planning to move a motion in the parliament to undo the declaration of Qadiaynis as non Muslims by ZA Bhutto led Parliament on 7th September 1974.
On 8th September 2008, Mr Altaf Hussain said, ‘a widespread conspiracy against the MQM of sending fax letters and emails to individuals and to Imam Bargahs and Mosques domestically and internationally inciting hatred and provocations against Shiite and Ahmadi sects to malign the image of the MQM and falsely portray it to be against Shiite and Ahmadi sects”.
Altaf Hussain prayed for the forgiveness of Mirza Tahir Ahmad Qadiyani leader, who died in London few of years ago. One wonders why Altaf did not attend his funeral? As a matter of courtesy one expects to say condolences provided the other side accept? Sir Zafrullah did not attend the funeral of Muhammad Ali Jinnah (father of the nation) conducted by a Sunni Muslim. Altaf Hussain prayed for the forgiveness of Qadiyani leader Mirza Tahir but have they accepted his condolences?
Impact magazine wrote: ‘The National Assembly (in 1974) would go to remove a long standing but an unnecessary anomaly. The decision would serve only to formalise the defacto even de jure position. The problem had arisen not because the Muslims in some fit of orthodoxy or fanaticism wanted to ‘excommunicate’ any group of people. Its origin, on the other hand, lay in the assumption by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadiyan of Messiahship, and prophethood and as a consequence, branding those who did not believe in him to be outside the pale of his Islam.
The Qadiyani view of their relationship with Muslims was well summarised by their second caliph, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad:“Our worship has been separated from the non –Ahmadis, we are prohibited from giving our daughters (in marriage) to them and we have been stopped from offering prayers for their dead. What then left that we can do together? There are two kinds of ties: one religious the other mundane. The greatest expression of the religious bond is in common worship and in matters mundane, these are the ties of family and marriage. But then both are forbidden (haram) to us. If you say that we are permitted to take their daughter (in marriage), then I would reply that we are allowed to marry the daughters of Christians as well. If you say why do we Salam (salute) to non- Ahmadis, then the reply to this is that … the Prophet (Muhammad) has said Salam to the Jews… Thus the Promised Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) has separated us, in all possible ways, from the others; and there is no kind of relationship which is particular to Muslims and we are not forbidden from (entering into) that”, (Kalimatul Fazsl’, by Mirza Mahmud Ahmad in Review of Religions).
In 1935 that Sir Mohammad Iqbal, a poet philosopher asked the British Government to declare the Qadiyanis as separate community just as they done with the Sikhs. Sir Iqbal said, ‘the Qadiyanis while pursuing a policy of separation in religion and social matters’, however, anxious to remain politically with the fold. The Qadiyanis will never take initiative for separation’, argued Sir Iqbal because their small number (56,000) according to 1931 census would not entitle them ‘even to a single seat in any legislature. The Qadiyanis asked the British Government that, ‘our rights too should be recognised like those of Parsees and Christians reported (Al Fadhi 13th November 1946).
“It was common knowledge that Jalaluddin Qamar, the Ahmedyah Missionary of Rabwah had been serving in Israel since 1956 when Ch. Muhammad Sharif was called back to Pakistan from Israel. All Qadiyani missionaries who had been formerly posted in Israel since 1928 namely J.D Shams, Allah Dita Jalundhari, Rashid Ahmed Chaughtai, Noor Ahmad and Ch. Sharif lived in Rabwah after serving in Israel. Their families had mysterious contact channels when they were in Israel”, wrote Bashir Ahmad in ‘Ahmadiyah Movement: British Jewish Connection.
As far as Jewish help and support is concerned, Mirza Mubarak Ahmad, grandson of the Qadiyani prophet has himself acknowledged in his book ‘OUR FOREIGN MISSIONS’, PP. 79-80 in the following words: “The Ahmadiyya mission in Israel is situated in Haifa at Mount Karmal. We have a mosque there, a mission house, a library, a book depot and a school”.
According to latest reports ‘Altaf Hussain is receiving instructions from foreign players including Indians and $ millions from the business community in Karachi’. He had many meetings with US diplomat Robin Raphael reportedly. Therefore when Altaf Hussain says, ‘LOC should be made permanent border’.
He seemingly follows Indo-US line on Kashmir according to Milligazette.com, ‘US Intentions in Kashmir’ by M. Ahmad Kazmi:
“The US policy-makers in the post-cold war era seem to be increasingly aggressive to implement the Dixon Plan in Kashmir for attaining ultimate target of having a foothold in the region and to use Kashmir as their main operations station. Before going into the US activities in the region it would be useful to understand the broad framework of the Dixon Plan. Named after its author Sir Owen Dixon, who was the UN representative for India and Pakistan in 1950, the plan envisages a division of Kashmir between India and Pakistan. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru favoured this plan, but it was a non-starter because Liyaqat Ali Khan, the then prime minister of Pakistan, rejected it. The US policy makers have resurrected this plan in recent years with some refinement. In the first phase, the idea of recognizing the Line of Control (LOC) as an international border is being mooted through different quarters”.
A senior analyst said, ‘Altaf Hussain’s latest filtration with the Qadiyanis is not a coincident? So what is he up to? Start civil war in Karachi? Cripple the economy? If Altaf Hussain goes down that route then Government of Pakistan should ask for his extradition, closure of so called ‘international secretariat’, international investigation into MQM funds starting from London, Dubai, Kenya, South Africa, Tanzania, Canada and United States. Otherwise it will not be possible to provide a safe route to NATO and allied forces 80% supplies and 40% fuel delivered in Afghanistan via Karachi port? United States and allies need to inform the world what are their real objectives in Afghanistan?’
(Dr Shahid Qureshi is senior award wining investigative journalist and writer on security, foreign policy, and terrorism based in London)
Clearly, there are not 600 Qadianis in the Israeli army. I doubt that there is even one. Estimates put the total number of Qadianis in Palestine at around 600 to 1000. They do have their own satellite station there (expensive, I wonder how they fund it?) and it broadcasts in Arabic, obviously not trying to “convert” Jews at all.
One should ask why the Qadianis there get special treatment and why they never have a bad word to say about the world champion of oppression and tyranny.
I should begin by saying that the average Ahmadi is not guilty of the sins of his community.
Ahmadiyya is not only a deviant theology, it is actively involved in weakening Islam politically, theologically, and militarily. Prime evidence for this is when they help Israel, and are helped by Israel. Its ironic that they say that Jihad of the Sword has ended, and condemn the Palestinian freedom fighters, but join the ranks of the Israeli military.
Why is it that MTA3 was broadcasted from Haifa, Israel? Shouldn’t the Ahmadis object to terrorism of the state of Israel, and economically boycott them? And even then, why is MTA3 in Arabic, directed at MUSLIMS, while they do not produce an MTA4 in Hebrew directed at the Jews of Israel?
The answer is clear: theological corruption amongst the Muslims. They care little about the Kufaar. They are already misguided.
May Allah guide the Ahmadis to Islam.
He stated: ‘… and the Ahmadi sect of some 600 people from Pakistan can also serve in the (Israeli) army…’
That’s the one line quoted from the book. It merely says that there are a total of 600 Ahamdis is Israel. No more than that. And they CAN serve in the army. CAN here is the operative word. They CAN serve in the army if they want to. It does not say anywhere that they are part of the army. And there it is, the immense stupidity of the so called ‘article’. By the way even the word ISRAELI is in brackets. Who knows which army the author is talking about. Plus the use of CAN. ‘Journalism’ at its best.
I feel very sorry for you brother. Try to open your eyes and find out the truth behind that.
I bet that if Govt. of Pakistan open the debate of parliment when AHMADIS declared to NON MUSLIMS…. more than 50% of Pakistanis will be AHMADIS INSHALLAH.
You think you are doing a great job by running a site and putting all the meterial you find on internet and serving so called ISLAM.
Try to find out the truth if you can’t mail me i will send you the meterial which will surely open up your eyes.
@ Jamil Kirmani
“We CAN what we will do” - MGA from one of his English-language “revelations”. How’s that for an operative usage?
You’re focusing on one technicality in his writing rather rather than the overall point: Ahmadis working with the enemies of Islam.
Historically, lets look at the Obaideen (a Shi’a sect that doesn’t exist anymore). They claimed to be “True Islam”, but were just another minor deviant sect. They joined forces with the Crusaders against Islam.
The Ahmadis have the same basic model. They claim to be the “True Group” of Islam, but are just another minority deviant sect in our 1400+ history.
Jamil, look at it from my perspective. Our theology has been around since day 1. Suddenly, this new guy claims to be a Prophet and joins forces with the enemies of Islam (ie, the British). I don’t want to get into a whole issue of Jihad al-Qalam, but its undeniable that the British had taken the freedom of the Indians.
Now the Ahmadis are at it again. They side with Israel (Ahmadi Mullahs regularly condemn the Palestinian people, but rarely, if ever, condemn the Israeli military) I agree, suicide bombing is bad, they’ll talk about the sins of Palestine more than (if ever?) the sins of Israel.
They broadcast from Kababir, Israel, to the Arab MUSLIM world trying to get them to join their specific sect. Why not MTA3 in Hebrew? From the Ahmadi mullahs perspective, we’re at least “Non-Ahmadi Muslims”, whereas Ahl al-Kitaab are Kufaar. So, MTA is in Urdu, English, and Arabic, all languages spoken by Muslims. Why not MTA in Chinese? Spanish? Well, because Muslims generally don’t speak those languages. The goal is obvious: target Muslims.
So, politically, militarily, and theologically, Ahmadis are against Islam.
@Safeer: You are free to get the records of the 1974 debate. Why don’t you get them and publish them?
There are transcripts available, and there is no secrecy statute to worry about anymore. Why don’t you use what material in debates now?
You are not using your intelligence. Think. Were there not Pakistanis in that parliament? Why did 50% of them become Qadiani? Or like other Qadianis, are you a believe in outlandish conspiracy theories only when they suit you?
Use your brain. We all know what happened in 1974. Mirza Nasir made a very poor case and wanted to reserve the right to call all other Muslims “kaafir” whilst reserving the right to declare your heretical creed as the only true Muslims. How did he think that would have ever worked?
As for the piece on the Israeli army, this is not our article, nor are we saying we necessarily agree with the views expressed therein. You can clearly see that it is quoted news. Feel free to comment on it.
Farhan, they use the term “non-Ahmadi Muslim” in a treacherous way. They think that Muslims are kaafirs and their books confirm this. (Read QK2’s Truth About the Split). According to them, non-Ahmadis are actually non-Muslims. According to them, they are the “True Islam”, which would make 1.5BN Muslims “False Islam” or simply, “kaafir”.
Wordplay like this might fool the innocent Qadiani at the mercy of the cult mind, but it doesn’t fool people who seek the truth and to whom Allah (SWT) has granted hidaayah.
@Safeer,
Dear Brother, your argument, “I bet that if Govt. of Pakistan open the debate of parliment when AHMADIS declared to NON MUSLIMS…. more than 50% of Pakistanis will be AHMADIS INSHALLAH.” has an inherent flaw. Please think about it.
Do you know Mirza Nasir was a part of debate and he was present in the debate all the time. So he knows all the details of debate - each and every argument from A to Z. That means if Ahamdi Jamaat wants it can publish the debate and quickly convert 50% of Pakistanis to Ahmadis.
Why does not the Jamaat do so?
Have you ever thought over it. Your Jamaat does not want to make 50% Pakistani as Ahmadis. Why not? They have a golden chance, just publish 30 pages of debate and post on the internet. WHY NOT???????
As much as I would like to blame the whole world for the miseries of the ‘Islamic world’ be that Palestine or Iraq or whatever I just can’t. This is how God intended it to be. It is clearly written in the Quran that even if the Muslims stopped doing good deeds they would be punished. It has happened before to previous people because they strayed from the right path. I know, to you simple folks it looks like its the fault of Qadianis/Jews/Hindus/Christians but unfortunately its not. Its the fault of all Muslims. When the majority leaves God they get punished. Muslims don’t have a God given right to be the masters of Jerusalem. They have to earn it like everyone else. Maybe these ‘enemies’ were produced by God Himself to punish you. Either way all civilizations and religions have downfalls. Nothing is forever. In any case throughout the history of the world the weak have been punished by the strong. That’s how it is. I know its not fair. But the fact is that the world is not fair. As long as Muslims are weak and pathetic they will get beaten up. Get over it already!
Jamil, you are using a strawman argument and it shows that you are not interested in the truth.
The point is quite simple. The Zionist regime in occupied Palestine is part of the problem, not the solution. Qadianis also, are part of the problem, not the solution.
No man its not. The Zionists powerful and powerful have always done what they want. This is how the world works. That’s the only truth. There is no morality or religion here. States do what’s in their interest. Powerful take what they want from the weak and there’s nothing you can do about it. You think the Jews will just give you Palestine with the goodness of their heart. What if Muslims had the Holy Land? Would they have given it away? The Arabs with all their combined power were unable to defeat the Zionists, because they were lame and weak. And as long as Muslims are weak the Holy Land will remain in the hands of the Jews. Even now the Palestinians are not united. They’re constantly fighting among themselves and then they have the audacity to blame the Jews for their troubles. Come on man give me a break. If it were not the Jews it would have been someone else. This is God’s will. Allah has decreed in the Quran that the Holy Land will be taken away from you because of your deeds and you will be punished. The Jews etc. are merely the instruments that God has chosen to punish us. Just like when Baghdad was run down by the Mongols in around 1200AD. The powerful get crushed by the weak. The only difference was that in earlier times Muslims had help from God and now they don’t. So what if the Zionists went away. What then? How does that solve any of Muslim problems? Does that bring us closer to God. Does that make us God’s chosen ones again. Do we get a free ticket to heaven somehow. Some one else will come and beat us up.
Jamil, your latest message is far closer to the truth, I don’t disagree with any of it.
There is a small distinction to be made. We should speak out against oppression, even if we are not strong enough to fight it. This is not just about control of land, even if it is Al-Quds. It’s about justice.
Unity/disunity will always be an issue as long as we are human, but it is right and it is obligatory that we speak up against oppression.
Israel was created due to a Fitnah which still plagues muslims. Maal. Arabs sold their lands to the Jews. Who warned them against it? Ahmadis.. Jews declare the formation of the state of Israel? Who warns the Arabs.. Ahmadis. There is a war.. Who exhorts muslims to join and continue the war until victory? Ahmadis…. Arabs seek agreement at UN.. Who fights their case in front of all nations? An Ahmadi..
References:
http://www.alislam.org/urdu/au/AU19-16.pdf
http://www.alislam.org/urdu/au/AU16-5.pdf
http://www.alislam.org/library/zafar2.html
@islam976
ahmadis supported the war against the isreali army! LOL!
u r free to fabricate and spread historical tales; in fact, I won’t be surprised if u do really believe in such fabrications! why not! don’t u ahmadis believe that guru nanak, the founder of sikhism, was a true prophet who had shown miracles!
http://www.thecult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=86
sir, whom u r trying to convince! if ahmadis were really against israel, why have they – unlike any other arab palestinian - been given the freedom to travel between the west bank and the remaining palestinian towns anytime they wish!
wake up islam976, the truth is crystal clear: ahmadis will always support israel since they had been instructed by their so-called prophet to be loyal to the criminals who steal the lands of poor and weak people. The boer war was just an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2g9NH5MjSA
If u really want to know the position of ahmadis in Palestine towards Israel, please read this article which had been written by your leader in the west bank:
hanitaher.maktoobblog.com/?post=136747
Quote// With regard to Al-Aqsa Mosque issue, I don’t see any problem in giving the Jews a temple below it … The entry of the temple can be provided at the western side… There shouldn’t be any problem in building multi-levels which gather everyone? // Unquote
islam976, is this the help which you are proud to give for us Palestinians? Thank u sir, but for the God sake, please do not help us anymore!
Fuad, When I write something, I write with evidence. I have provided proofs.. Here is some more.
http://www.alislam.org/books/truth/israel.html
As for the issue of Aqsa mosque, Islam does not preach demolition of temples and churches. If Umar (ra) did not do it, then no one has the right over that temple, but Jews. Hani Tahir has spoken wisely.
If this “if ahmadis were really against israel, why have they – unlike any other arab palestinian - been given the freedom to travel between the west bank and the remaining palestinian towns anytime they wish!” is true, then the false creed of Qadianism has sunk even lower in my estimation.
Even if it were true, I do not see any problems with this. Ahmadis do not cause a threat to any government or established authority.
It’s all very well saying that Qadianis are loyal citizens, but that doesn’t make you any different from most people. The issue here is one of justice and speaking up against injustice. Your unwillingness as a community to speak up against injustice marks you out as evil and most definitely on the wrong path.
Qadianis are friends only of oppressors and tyrants and are haters of the Ummah.
It is only your prejudiced, hateful opinion..
This was published first in 1940s..
http://www.alislam.org/urdu/au/AU19-16.pdf
Yes, us Muslims do hate. We hate oppression, tyranny and evil. You Qadianis are for it.
BTW, Urdu is understood neither by Palestinian Arabs, or by Jews in occupied Palestine. There is no point referring to isolated statements made in pre-history for your defence.
You know, you have just acknowledged that you collude with the Zionist oppressor. Please point to any PR release from your community since 1967 against the Zionist oppressor and then compare it with the vast tracts of releases and output from the Ummah.
Where are your PR statements against the murder and occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan? I am just an ordinary Muslim, nothing special, but I have spoken up publicly more against oppression and tyranny than your entire community put together. Now compare my lowly output with the rest of the Ummah and you should really be burying your head in shame at your community’s love of oppression and tyranny. It is only where Islam is suppressed that your cancer can survive and even there, it fails miserably to expand.
Every time there is a terrorist attack, your community is quick to release a wire that claims you are nothing like the rest of us “terrorists” (that’s your word, and the racists’ word for Muslims), but whenever a wedding party is bombed in Afghanistan, or a pregnant woman dies giving birth at a Zionist checkpoint, or an entire community in Iraq is wiped out by the American empire, your craven community, like your obsequious and dajjalic founder Mirza, is strangely silent. Indeed, many of you gloat and see it as a sign for rejection of Mirza.
So please, don’t insult us with your pathetic attempts to defend the indefensible.
All the oppression, violence hapening in the muslim world is being condemned by the Ahmadiyya Muslim community on a regular basis. I can refer you to hundreds of “press releases” which are open warnings to the capitolist expansionists. The friday sermon of the Khalifatul Masih are the press releases from the community. Read the gulf crisis sermons, which have been translated in English.
As for the urdu tract that I referred to, it was sent to the Arab newspapers in Iraq and Syria which published it and also commented on it.
The violence against muslims is a despicable act.. But the mullah is an equal partner in crime. The blood of innocent is on the west as well as the clergy. For that matter, it is the Ahmadiyya muslim community which is actually doing something at both fronts. We are trying to educate both the westerners and the muslims on how to attain peace. We do not play victims to fuel more hatred. We are here to teach the world the true islamic values. Your name calling, your hate is not what I call “islamic values”.
Hang on, you started by using weasel words to call me “munafiq” in the Sour Grapes thread and you have the temerity to come here and defend your pro-Zionist stance and accuse me of hate and name calling?
@ Shahid,
The information about facilities given by Israelis to ahmadiyya members is correct; you may verify it yourself by seeing the face of Hani Taher – their leader in west bank – every now and then in MTA3/Kababeer TV studio even when the borders of the west bank are strictly closed by the israeli army.
You may also read what br. A. Odeh – a Palestinian who was born Ahmadi – wrote : ((During the crackdown on Arabs inside Israel, as soon as the ID cards show the place of residence is Kababeer, soldiers allow the bearer of the card to go free, saying: Let him go. This is our man)).
@islam976
Is this the proof of your anti-israeli activities! a speech in the UN!
According to your logic, GW Bush had offered a greater support to Palestinians when he claimed sympathy in some of his speeches. But look at the real role of GW Bush, and look at the real role of Zafarullah.
http://alhafeez.org/rashid/british-jewish/bjc_16.htm
In the UN, Zafarullah was not Ahmadiyya representative, but was Pakistan’s man there. He opposed the partition of Palestine since this was the position of the Quaid.
You claimed that Ahmadis exhort Muslims to join and continue the war against Israel until victory. Sorry sir, this is a big lie; you can read what Hani Taher wrote about those who are fighting Israel.
However, let us forget about your lie; show us sir a single Ahmadi among your 220 millions – LOL - who joined a single war against Israel.
It is part of your religion to show true loyalty to the criminals who steal Muslims lands; why denying this simple fact!
BTW, thank you for your extended help to us Palestinians. Your support to Hani’s suggestion - about building a multi level temple in place of Al Aqsa Mosque – exhorts us Muslims to join and continue the war against Israel until victory.
Fuad, The Ahmadiyya community supported the Arab allied forces in the first war. After there was a ceasefire and talks, it was the Arabs who sought truce and made way for accepting the state of Israel. Ahmadiyya community was not a party to those actions of Arab nationalists. Now, Israel stood in the middles of all Arab states and was recognized by the leaders of these countries. Any attempt to start a war on their own, without a national consensus is unislamic. Even the palestinians in occupied territory accept the two state solution. Why cant you call all the arabs as Zionists?
As for no travel restrictions on Arab Ahmadis, i have mentioned before, there is no threat of suicide bombs and rocket attacks from Ahmadis. Why should be there any restrictions?
Govt. of Pakistan orders anti-taliban action. Many innocent civilians die. Will you call for a Jihad against the Pakistan army?
Almost every Arab government is guilty killing innocent civlians.. Will you turn against them? No.. Why then do you expect ahmadis to declare war on Israel? Lets declare war on the whole world!
Do you not accept the internationally sanctioned and God-given, legitimate right of Palestinians to resist the occupation of their land?
I accept their right to declare a war against the oppressor. I do not accept their right to send suicide bombers and stray home-made rockets in Israeli towns.
OK, so we are agreed on the premise, and mostly on the tactics.
Do you agree then, that it is the duty of all Muslims to support their oppressed brothers, if not militarily, then financially and if not financially, vocally?
Should Palestinian Qadianis not support their oppressed “brothers”?
What is the solution to the Palestine problem? If you outline your solution, I can tell you if I agree with it or not.
A democratic one-state solution, where the rights of all groups are enshrined in the new state’s constitution; with the right of all Palestinian refugees to return to the homes that were stolen in the Nkba of ‘48 is the ideal. I can’t see the majority of Israelis agreeing to this though, but one day, the Zionist regime will disappear from the pages of time.
In the short-term, a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders would be a good compromise, but it requires the removal of all (or most) of the settlers from the occupied West Bank. This is not just, as the right of return would be difficult to apply, but it would be a start.
Now I have answered your question, please do answer mine: Should Palestinian Qadianis not support their oppressed “brothers”?
Intersting exchanges bertween a sincere Qadiani976 and sincere Muslims.
One does not have to prove and show what side Qadianis take when it comes to chose between Muslims and non-Muslims. If Islam976 is trying to prove that Qadianis are not against Islam or far Islam, then he is going aginst his basic belief.
It is by decree of Mr. Ghulam VICTORIA Qadiani that his followers have to side with Brits… I invite Mr976 to show us the original bait form and show us that clause that called for complete obedience to Brits, as a condition of bait/faith to become a qadiani. I also ask Mr. 976, why have they removed that clause from the bait form that Mirza himself talked about in Kitab al Bariya (RK13) when writing against JIHAD. Mirza assured his masters that he declared jihad haram and made it a condition of his bait. Not only that, Mirza made a list of his refernces against Jihad in his books and offered them to Brits as an evidence of his loyalty…..
So, next time you become appologetic and write that you against Musalim geting opressed by Brits / US in Afghanistan , Iraq, Palastine, remember that you are going against your basic teachings. AND THANKS FOR YOUR ‘SUPPORT’, WE ARE BETTER OFF WITHOUT IT.
I thought you claim yourselves to be ‘real muslims’, I wonder what BAHAI’S LEADER doing at this gathering of qadianis celeberating 100 years in presence of your kalifaa. Follow this link.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=BRY3hIxxmKQ
You are not only against Muslims, but also against ISLAM. Is BAHAI prophet among those who are mentioned by Mirza in his book “The Will” page 17?
“This is how some individuals, despite being ummati, have earned the title of ‘Prohet’.”
IS BAHAI your ummati nabi? If not how you explain his presence with Mansur?
I would like to point out that what is happening to the Palestinians at the hands of the Jews (and Muslims around the world in general) is the will of God. No amount of fighting against Israel is going to change the fact that God doesn’t care about Muslims any more. They are being punished for straying from the right path. Blaming the ‘infidels’ for your miseries is not only childish but also extremely stupid. The fact is that Muslims are not Momin any more. Because God always helps the Momin. I would like to state the very obvious that there is no difference between Muslims and Jews/Christians etc in the eyes of the Lord. You’re all the same to Him. Just because you believe in one God and call yourself Muslims doesn’t mean anything. You don’t have the God given right to rule the world. You have to earn that right. If you want these punishments to stop then pray to Allah. No amount of protests/rallies/outcries etc in front of the world is going to help you. Only Allah can. Go and ask for His forgiveness…
Shahid,
Ahmadis support the political efforts to resolve the conflict. I will never support a civil war. But as a community, no one has done more than the ahmadis for the freedom of Palestine. It started before the creation of Israel. Now the OIC and Saudi based Mu’tamir alame Islami has declared Ahmadis to be outside the pale.. How will you expect Arab Ahmadis to actively paraticipate in a political process with the rest? But even then, Ahmadiyya community is striving for peace for all the muslim brothers.
I will not respond to the abusive members on this blog.
@jamil: Quit with the broken record. It is our responsibility, weak or not, to speak up (at least!) against tyranny and oppression. That is what we are doing. Nobody is blaming the Jews for the ills of the Muslims, you are presenting a strawman argument.
@islam976, Israelis also speak up against Israeli atrocities. So why no statement or press release from Ahmadiyya Central condemning Israel’s hideous actions? Can’t Qadianis at least be as vocal as Amira Hass? What about Tom Hurndall? Or Rachel Corrie? How do you feel about their murders, if you find it difficult to feel empathy for the Ummah?
If you can point me to such a release since 1967, I would be grateful. On the other hand, I see many where the Movement rushes to distance itself from other Muslims.
Islam places a responsibility on you to reject oppression, by force if necessary. Are you saying now that you don’t support the rights of Palestinians to defend themselves by force? A right that even the UN grants all peoples? Such a position is not Islamic, and the expression “civil war” is inappropriate.
I think you are actually ignoring the tract “Al kufru millatun Wahidah”.. The contents of which make it abudndanly clear that Jamaat Ahmadiyya was the first community who warned the Ummah of the dangers coming their way.
As for fighting wars and then loosing resolve, it is not the character of true muslims. Ahmadis will always distance themselves from traitors and terrorists.
So basically, there is no record of any PR statement by your community against Zionist aggression since 1967? Nothing in over 40 years?
Who are the traitors and who are the terrorists you are distancing yourselves from? (And in so doing, you run into the bosom of Zionist Israel? How revealing!)
600 Arab ahmadis live in Haifa. This is only a fraction of Arabs who constitute 20% of Israeli population. Will you then conclude that these muslims represent the Zionist designs of Arab muslims?
I also referred you to the collection of sermons delivered at the start of Gulf War 1.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/newworldorder/?page=-11#top
If this is not the best defense of Muslims in recent years, then nothing is.
Also
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CGS5ryA7ow0C&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=palestine+land+sold+ahmadiyya&source=web&ots=iAnjNIEVXi&sig=y1-4xQyXKqgLueMfZalBxIolckk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result
page 137.
A single page, again, 1940s. Come on, we have gone over this!
I asked you for one press release (compared to the many urgent press releases distancing yourself from the mainstream) since 1967. There has not been one.
Again:
There is no record of any PR statement by your community against Zionist aggression since 1967? Nothing in over 40 years? Is there? (There have been many press releases distancing yourselves from mainstream Muslims!)
Again:
Who are the traitors and who are the terrorists you are distancing yourselves from?
Here it is then. From July 1967.
http://www.alislam.org/alfurqan/1967-07-08.pdf
Page 3. Get it translated if you can’t read urdu.
Sure. I will tell my Palestinian brothers and sisters that the Qadianis are with them. That once, over 40 years ago, there was something written by a Qadiani against Zionist aggression and that the fact that nothing has been said against Zionists since shouldn’t bother them. (And that they will need to get the “evidence” from 1967 translated, because the Ahmadiyya cannot be bothered.)
Come on, how can you not be embarrassed by this? How can you defend this? How many protests have the Qadianis organised? How many anti-Zionist petitions?
Now that we have accepted that in the last 40 years, Qadianis have not made a single press release against Zionist atrocities, I ask again, who are the “traitors and terrorists” you referred to that you are “distancing” yourselves from?
I don’t think Muslims should worry too much about their plight. God has given glad tidings to those who are persecuted because they are Muslims. They will be rewarded in the after life. This life is nothing, even less than nothing. Muslims should keep praying to Allah and they will be rewarded. A true Momin does not want power and privilege in this temporary world. Only a Kaffir wants this world. Even now the whole world is running after worldly things while we Muslims are only interested in the after life. We do not want Palestine, we do not want power. We are glad that we are being persecuted because of our faith.
@Shahid,
brilliant posts brother! While islam976 was desperate to find some Qadiani press releases against Zionist atrocities, he was hoist with his own petard.
I will recommend that my palestinian brothers read this to understand the Ahmadiyya view point.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/newworldorder/
islam976, who are the traitors and who are the terrorists you are distancing yourselves from? Is it really so difficult for you to answer this? You said it, so you must know what you meant?
For the record, if I haven’t said this already, I acknowledge that Mirza Tahir was very outspoken against Israel and the USA in the first Gulf War. Towards the end of his life though, his stance had hardened against Muslims again.
Has Mirza Masroor said anything in his sermons about the tyranny of the Zionist alliance powers?
However, the foreword of the document you refer us to speaks for itself:
“I feel that this period of adversity and decline and these repeated miseries are the consequence of the Muslim denial of his Holiness - the Promised Messiah. There is no doubt about it. Therefore my message to you is that you should submit yourselves to the ‘Imam of the Age’”
This is risible claptrap. Are you saying that the 68 children murdered by the Zionist tyrant in the year to June this year were murdered because they didn’t submit to a man they knew nothing about?
I’m sorry, but I was under the impression that Muslims were to submit only to Allah the Exalted?
Shahid, it is the will of Allah Almighty that all sincere and worthy people of the world will eventually recognize His appointed Imam. Muslims are bowing to their base desires, violence, hatred and baseless myths.
As for traitors: The muslim clergy are the traitors and terrorists that I do not wish to assoicate myself with. These mullahs who preach that apostates should be killed. These idiots who think that destroying girls schools is a service to Islam. These morons who believe that living in western democracies is haram, yet they flock to these countries for a better life. I think the traitors are those leaders who declared war on Israel, but then begged for a ceasefire once the tables were turned against them. Terrorists are these oil rich shaikhs who fund seminaries in poor countries to produce more mullahs yet roll in gambling and alcohol in London and Paris. These custodians of Holy sites who think they are the rightful owners of Arabia, yet they are the most despotic rulers in the world. Can’t you recognize the traitor who invaded Kuwait out of pride. The terrorist who invokes the arrival of the Hidden Imam and makes a fool of his nation infront of the world. These ugly gangsters in the streets of occupied territories who feel free to open fire on their Palestinian countrymen because they disagree with their politics. Which party do you think is sincere to the Palestinian cause? Those who get funds from US and EU, or those who get funds from filthy rich shaikhs and Ayatullahs? What virtue is in recruiting suicide bombers out of the slums where deprivation and ignorance has ruled form the past 60 years?
Why should I take sides in this scenario? My politics is simple. I will take sides with anyone who actually does something for Peace.
As for looking for statements of condemnation from the Jamaat, we do not believe that mere statements are good enough. We pray for the muslim ummah on every gathering. Jumma, Eid, Jalsa, Ijtema, local meetings. etc.. Maybe you think its not good enough. All those years in the jamaat, and you never noticed your local president or Murabbi, or Khalifatul Masih instructing everyone to pray for Ummat e Muslima just before the silent prayers..
I agree with much of your sentiment, but in all my years, I never noticed anyone praying for the ummah. I remember a lot of hatred towards the Ummah. You are fixated on the evil in the Ummah. There is plenty of good too. Do you miss that in your hatred and anger?
I don’t see Ahmadis in black and white terms (I have Ahmadi friends and family etc.) so why do you insist on seeing all Muslim leaders in such terms?
Statements are not enough, but they are a marker for where you stand and is the least we can do. Prayers are compulsory anyway. Du’a? Well we all do that. In every Muslim gathering, every jumu`ah there is a prayer for the suffering Muslim countries by name.
But you almost succeeded in distracting me again - how would submitting to the ‘Imam of the Age’ (what a novel concept!) change the lot of the Muslims? Surely, just being a Muslim and submitting to Allah (SWT) is enough?
BTW, you don’t honestly thing Fatah is better than Hamas, do you?
I don’t think both do not represent the true sentiments of the ordinary palestinian.
But you subscribe to the belief that submitting to the ‘Imam of the Age’ would change their lot? You can’t be serious, surely? In this belief, you hold Palestinians (and the rest of the Ummah) to be kaafirs.
Yes.
OK now we have got to brass tacks. So tell me exactly, how this is an Islamic position?
Please prove using Qur’an and Sunnah, imagine I am a Palestinian boy, aged 10, who has just lost his family to an Israeli shell. Now imagine looking me in the eyes and explaining your position to me…remember I have never heard of this Mirza Ghulam Ahmad fellow and that you have to explain to me that God wiped my family out because I didn’t believe in this man I’d never heard of…
Should we not start with all the 10 year old boys at the time of Noah’s flood, destruction of all the towns mentioned in the Quran and those towns which were destroyed after that?
A BBC juornalist asked a Talib fighter in Pakistan, why do you decapitate your muslim captives, the police men and army personnel? The pious Talib replies, we slaughter them by severing their jugular veins as it is painless and the soul departs from that vein. Whereas when they decapitate the “kuffar”, they chop their necks from the back to make it more painful for them…
These are the people who are waging war against the infidels as a revenge for Palestine and Chechniya.
I will ignore your gutter journalism where you extrapolate the actions of a small group of people as reported by a biased news source to over a billion people. I will instead proceed to your usual “answer a question with question” question.
You cannot (shamelessly) compare the rejecters of Allah (SWT) with sincere, practising Muslims, most of whom are way better Muslims than any Qadiani I have ever known (myself in the past included, of course.)
So no islam976, let’s start with your answer to the 10-year old Muslim boy, since the deen reached its completion with 5:3, and Muslims like him have been practising ever since. You are not talking to a mushrik, you are talking to a boy who has obeyed the Final Commandments, with `aqeeda explained in Qur’an and with no mention of a Mirza, even elliptically, anywhere, being part of `aqeeda.
..especially when he (Zafrulla) was charged with advocating the unitary state proposal that became the official Arab and Muslim position. Evatt admired his eloquance and depth, and so too did Hodgson, who told one of his Americal colleagues that a partuicularly effective speech by Khan in the Ad Hoc Committee had ‘completey demolished the Jewish case’. From H.V. Evatt and the Establishment of Israel: The Undercover Zionist - Page 126 by Daniel Mandel - History - 2004 - 336 pages
“Guatemala and Uraguay became, quite intriguingly the most Zionophile advocates of partition of Palestine. Garcia Garnados of Guatemala led many an attack on Zafrullah Khan to dissipate the impact created on the world assembly by the Pakistani foreing miniters’s masterly presentation of the case of an independent undivided Palestine. One sharp argument to embarrass Zafrullah khan pointed to his representing a country which had just been created by partitioning India to satisfy a minority’s insistence on a separate state.” Behind the Poison Cloud: Union Carbide’s Bhopal Massacre - Page 102 by Larry Everest - History - 1986 - 192 pages
This was the thread. Can you answer instead of diverting? What you are doing is transparently shameless.
You cannot (shamelessly) compare the rejecters of Allah (SWT) with sincere, practising Muslims, most of whom are way better Muslims than any Qadiani I have ever known (myself in the past included, of course.)
So no islam976, let’s start with your answer to the 10-year old Muslim boy, since the deen reached its completion with 5:3, and Muslims like him have been practising ever since. You are not talking to a mushrik, you are talking to a boy who has obeyed the Final Commandments, with `aqeeda explained in Qur’an and with no mention of a Mirza, even elliptically, anywhere, being part of `aqeeda.
Shahid, completion of Deen has nothing to do with the suffering of any ten year old in the world. The question of suffering is different from that of Divine punishment. If you confuse them both, you will start doubting God.
The point is simple. We accept Islam. We accept the Final Revelation, the Final Prophet and we believe that the Deen is complete.
We are fulfilling our pact with Allah.
How is the `aqeeda of the 10-year old boy who never heard of Mr. Mirza, despite practising the Islam taught by the Last and Final Prophet (saw), in any way, deficient?
I love your website and I’m moved by your experience. Please mail me, I would like to network with you insha Allah. I’m hoping to start some Qadiani-related projects relating to publishing…